I have never messed with any tuning..Although I have watched Dark city like 20 times....
But we engineers can never leave well enough alone.
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Tuning the NSX 3.0L Using the OEM ECU
- Thread starter Honcho
- Start date
But we engineers can never leave well enough alone.
I'm messing with the TunerPro software, a dual wideband setup, and demon 2. Right now I'm trying to get the datalogging working to have some useful data compiled.
I'm running the RDX injectors with the Prospeed chip (supposedly "stage 3"). My experience has been the car starts and idles great, in closed loop shows 14.5-15.3 range, in open loop holds a very consistent 12:1. It would be interesting to gather data on the different Prospeed chips and what the differences are (or maybe other "hot" chips like SOS, Dali, Dinan, GruppeM, Mugen, etc).
I compared my chips .bin file to the OEM 91-94 file, no changes whatsoever to ign timing on my chip. Only changes to the fuel tables and other fuel-related parameters (to be expected with running very different flow rates). I can't say I'm noticing a big change in power, if anything I feel it is a bit slower than before, maybe a bit more mid-range. Idle and driving the engine does seem "smoother" though, and it starts immediately. I'm thinking the 12:1 should be closer to 13:1 or so for best power, he likely tuned it on the (safe) rich side. My car had the OEM injectors cleaned pretty recently, so maybe I'm not going from used/poorly flowing injectors to "shiny" new ones.
I'm running the RDX injectors with the Prospeed chip (supposedly "stage 3"). My experience has been the car starts and idles great, in closed loop shows 14.5-15.3 range, in open loop holds a very consistent 12:1. It would be interesting to gather data on the different Prospeed chips and what the differences are (or maybe other "hot" chips like SOS, Dali, Dinan, GruppeM, Mugen, etc).
I compared my chips .bin file to the OEM 91-94 file, no changes whatsoever to ign timing on my chip. Only changes to the fuel tables and other fuel-related parameters (to be expected with running very different flow rates). I can't say I'm noticing a big change in power, if anything I feel it is a bit slower than before, maybe a bit more mid-range. Idle and driving the engine does seem "smoother" though, and it starts immediately. I'm thinking the 12:1 should be closer to 13:1 or so for best power, he likely tuned it on the (safe) rich side. My car had the OEM injectors cleaned pretty recently, so maybe I'm not going from used/poorly flowing injectors to "shiny" new ones.
General consensus is that 12.5 - 13.0 is best for a naturally aspirated NSX. You really need to take it to a Dynapak dyno to determine the ideal AFR. RFY tunes it to 12.7 IIRC.
mskrotzki; said:
Mark, I think you will be very happy with a refreshed 3.0 tuned on the Demon II. We should be able to do better than Prospeed, since all of us will be street tuning and posting logs/data here for all to use. That's likely 100's of hours of tuning time, plus we're all going to do the final polish on the dyno. However, with the Demon II, you would easily be able to adjust the tune for the extra air in the 3.2. If you do go with the 3.2, I would recommend changing your intake valves to the larger 36 mm version from the NA2.
Can you describe roughly what needs to be reworked on the Demon 2. I'm a mechanical engineer (having worked mostly in academics and computers) and am not great with electronics. But I did buy a soldering station yesterday and am willing to give this a crack.
Also, do you have a recommendation on a wide band O[SUB]2[/SUB] sensor as well as a source.
Thanks. I am looking forward to this project.
Mark
Here is a photo of a Demon installed in a Civic/Integra ECU.
Here is a photo of a Demon installed in an NSX ECU.
On the ECU side you need to install a 28 pin socket where the factory EPROM used to be, then add 4 single pin headers for the data logging connections. Ground (purple), Demon TX/ECU RX (grey), +5V (white), and Demon RX/ECU TX (black)
On the Demon there is a 4 pin header on the underside of the board that should be removed, this was to interface with Civic/Integra OBD1 ECUs that have a connector there that is not present in the NSX ECU.
The black 4 pin connector on top of the Demon also needs to be removed and reinstalled in the holes where the 4 pin header you just removed was. This header is to attach accessories to the Demon which aren't supported on the NSX ECU so those pins are not needed.
From there you just hook up the 4 pin connector as shown in the photo.
Here is a photo of a Demon installed in an NSX ECU.
On the ECU side you need to install a 28 pin socket where the factory EPROM used to be, then add 4 single pin headers for the data logging connections. Ground (purple), Demon TX/ECU RX (grey), +5V (white), and Demon RX/ECU TX (black)
On the Demon there is a 4 pin header on the underside of the board that should be removed, this was to interface with Civic/Integra OBD1 ECUs that have a connector there that is not present in the NSX ECU.
The black 4 pin connector on top of the Demon also needs to be removed and reinstalled in the holes where the 4 pin header you just removed was. This header is to attach accessories to the Demon which aren't supported on the NSX ECU so those pins are not needed.
From there you just hook up the 4 pin connector as shown in the photo.
Thanks for the crystal clear picture and explanation.
I hope it is ok that I forwarded it to Moates, as they had just emailed me that they could not find a picture of an NSX ECU. We may have a mutual beneficial society emerging here.
I'll be meeting with Paul over the weekend as we both prepare to jump into this one.
I hope it is ok that I forwarded it to Moates, as they had just emailed me that they could not find a picture of an NSX ECU. We may have a mutual beneficial society emerging here.
I'll be meeting with Paul over the weekend as we both prepare to jump into this one.
I ordered my Demon 2 and am looking at Wide Band O2 sensors. Does anyone have a recommendation for exact type and vendor for the sensor?
I want to get down to Mestas in Peyton, CO to retrieve my ECU to bring back here to install the Demon -- and drop off the WBO2 for installation in my front ProSpeed header.
I want to get down to Mestas in Peyton, CO to retrieve my ECU to bring back here to install the Demon -- and drop off the WBO2 for installation in my front ProSpeed header.
I use the innovate motorsports lc-2 but AEM or really any other wideband sensor with a 0-5V voltage output would work just fine.
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I got the LC-2 because John is using it and we know it plays nice with TunerPro because he is using it.
I got the LC-2 because John is using it and we know it plays nice with TunerPro because he is using it.
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is on its way. I think I have all the pieces, now to get it all together.
That’s just the sensor, you also need a wideband controller since a wideband sensor by itself doesn’t output a useful signal.
mskrotzki said:
You bought the wideband controller too, right? You need it to interface with the Demon.
Can confirm this worked out great for me, thanks for all the help MotorMouth93! I've been running around with the demon installed, no issues at all. I installed the USB header so that I can connect/disconnect to my laptop just by removing the upper trim piece on the rear firewall, all I had to do is lower the main relay using a later '02 bracket that came with my replacement relay. It works out great and is a nice clean install, or could even run the usb cable permanently if desired.
I ran an innovate DLG-1 dual wideband because I may SC/turbo in the future. It's likely overkill, and is essentially an LC-2 unit + a gauge with an extra controller built in to display both banks on one gauge. I'm running the 2 afr 0-5V signals to the demon unit for datalogging. The program MotorMouth93 developed is set up with a dashboard and a good set of logging values, livetrace also works in TunerPro which is really nice for seeing where on the map you are.
I'll be using the Demon on my Integra as well, so the above modification just requires a 4 pin connector to retain same functionality there. It'd be really cool if moates.net decided to develop a dedicated unit for the NSX, but if you can solder it is really easy to convert.
I ran an innovate DLG-1 dual wideband because I may SC/turbo in the future. It's likely overkill, and is essentially an LC-2 unit + a gauge with an extra controller built in to display both banks on one gauge. I'm running the 2 afr 0-5V signals to the demon unit for datalogging. The program MotorMouth93 developed is set up with a dashboard and a good set of logging values, livetrace also works in TunerPro which is really nice for seeing where on the map you are.
I'll be using the Demon on my Integra as well, so the above modification just requires a 4 pin connector to retain same functionality there. It'd be really cool if moates.net decided to develop a dedicated unit for the NSX, but if you can solder it is really easy to convert.
Glad to hear it is working well. John has done the community a great service by getting the adx datalogging working.
For sure, this is a way cheaper and more straightforward option to tune due to being based off of the stock ECU that Honda engineers spent a lot of time developing. Newer standalones are great, but require a lot of setup to get to a point that is as dialed in as an OEM ecu.
If anyone is interested, I have an extra ECU that I lifted some traces on when attempting to de-solder the stock ecu chip (the first time).
My lesson learned is that a de-soldering gun is worth the $ and works way better than desolder braid. I bought a Hakko unit, as I had good experiences with their soldering irons.
Regarding widebands, if you get an Innovate unit be sure to calibrate in open air per their recommended procedure. I don't think AEM units need this step. Also, a unit with an LSU 4.9 O2 sensor will update faster than an LSU 4.2; LC-2 can control either, but some other wideband controllers are not as compatible. Be sure to follow instructions on where to weld in the additional bung and clocking in the exhaust, I put mine in my high flow cats (locate prior to catalyst).
My final ask is that anyone who uses the TunerPro software, be sure to donate to the website (Mark M.). He offers the software fully functional for free, it's worth far more than the $40 he asks as a donation. This is literally the only DIY non-commercial tuning software available for the NSX utilizing the OEM ecu.
If anyone is interested, I have an extra ECU that I lifted some traces on when attempting to de-solder the stock ecu chip (the first time).
My lesson learned is that a de-soldering gun is worth the $ and works way better than desolder braid. I bought a Hakko unit, as I had good experiences with their soldering irons.
Regarding widebands, if you get an Innovate unit be sure to calibrate in open air per their recommended procedure. I don't think AEM units need this step. Also, a unit with an LSU 4.9 O2 sensor will update faster than an LSU 4.2; LC-2 can control either, but some other wideband controllers are not as compatible. Be sure to follow instructions on where to weld in the additional bung and clocking in the exhaust, I put mine in my high flow cats (locate prior to catalyst).
My final ask is that anyone who uses the TunerPro software, be sure to donate to the website (Mark M.). He offers the software fully functional for free, it's worth far more than the $40 he asks as a donation. This is literally the only DIY non-commercial tuning software available for the NSX utilizing the OEM ecu.
Here is a photo of a Demon installed in an NSX ECU.
On the ECU side you need to install a 28 pin socket where the factory EPROM used to be, then add 4 single pin headers for the data logging connections. Ground (purple), Demon TX/ECU RX (grey), +5V (white), and Demon RX/ECU TX (black)
On the Demon there is a 4 pin header on the underside of the board that should be removed, this was to interface with Civic/Integra OBD1 ECUs that have a connector there that is not present in the NSX ECU.
The black 4 pin connector on top of the Demon also needs to be removed and reinstalled in the holes where the 4 pin header you just removed was. This header is to attach accessories to the Demon which aren't supported on the NSX ECU so those pins are not needed.
From there you just hook up the 4 pin connector as shown in the photo.
From the Moates Demon 2 support page
In the photo of Paul's ECU (which I held in my hands yesterday) it appears that
Pin 1 goes to ground
Pin 2 goes to Demon TX/ECU RX
Pin 3 goes to +5v
Pin 4 goes to Demon RX/ECU TX
In the Moates Demon 2 support page it appears that
Pin 1 goes to ground
Pin 2 goes to +5v
Pin 3 goes to Demon RX/ECU TX
Pin 4 goes to Demon TX/ECU RX
Am I missing something here?
Also, my Demon 2 arrived last night and moving the plugs around appears to be quite a challenge -- it all so small. What is the best way to de-solder these tiny pins? I have a cheap soldering iron with a bulb attached which I've used in previous jobs with limited success on way larger components. I would welcome and any all suggestions.
The Demon has pins on the bottom to interface with the CN2 datalog connector on Integra and Civic ECUs, which has the pinout gnd, tx, 5v, rx as shown in the photo of Pauls ECU that I posted earlier. I removed those pins, removed the black connector, and soldered it in place of the removed CN2 pins so it would be easier to hook up the datalogging wires. The pinout you are referencing is not what the logging wires are connected to, zoom in on both photos and you can see that the black connector has been moved. :smile:
You don't have to do it this way, as long as the logging wires are hooked up correctly you can keep the black connector where it was originally, this was just a simple and clean way to hook up the wires.
You don't have to do it this way, as long as the logging wires are hooked up correctly you can keep the black connector where it was originally, this was just a simple and clean way to hook up the wires.
^^^^ Well, that is what I missed, and it makes perfect sense. The items connected to the connector have been changed, so naturally they would be connected to different places in the ECU.
Thanks for the explanation and thanks for all your work on this project.
Mark
Thanks for the explanation and thanks for all your work on this project.
Mark
I retrieved my ECU yesterday and installed the Demon II today. All is well and everything is responding as expected.
FWIW I fired up TunerPro RT (which I paid for) and loaded up existing 94 NSX bins and a ProSpeed bin and ran the difference tool. Out of 2800 differences listed, only 52 were NOT in the 5 fuel tables. Those differences are, as expected, large.
Now I just have to obtain an eprom reader to read my chip and see what differences are there - supposedly 2 iterations up from "Stage III." I hate to buy one for a one use application, but if that's what it takes. . . .
I've compared the ProSpeed chip I have (supposedly "stage 3") vs the oem .bin as well. What I found is that all the differences are in the main fuel tables, a few other adjustment tables (fuel pw difference), and the injector latency table (makes sense for different injectors).
I've only done a little datalogging, but have noticed a few things:
1. Fueling is understandably tuned to the "rich" (safe) side, looks like in closed loop it is around 5-10% rich of stoich based on STFT values.
2. In WOT I was having some hesitation issues, and the car felt a bit sluggish/less responsive. AFRs were going 12:1 in open loop, which seemed excessively rich. In datalogging (thanks to John's definition file), the car was dropping in and out of open loop while in WOT (this shouldn't happen). John pointed me towards the tables that control open loop operation, and there are some tables that set PW limits which were still based on the old OEM injectors. I scaled these tables by the same amount as in the main fuel maps, and since then the car stays in open loop when it should, power is much better and no more hesitation & AFRs are more consistent ~12.5:1. Car feels like it should again and I think is a bit quicker (~5.2s 0-60 via datalogging without any sort of "launch" or wheelspin, just a standard acceleration from a stoplight)
I'm willing to share the .bin file I've got, but hold no responsibility for its use. Also, if interested I'd be willing to scan a chip and share the .bin info.
I think it would be interesting to build a library of "retired" chip .bin files so we know what the differences were.
I've only done a little datalogging, but have noticed a few things:
1. Fueling is understandably tuned to the "rich" (safe) side, looks like in closed loop it is around 5-10% rich of stoich based on STFT values.
2. In WOT I was having some hesitation issues, and the car felt a bit sluggish/less responsive. AFRs were going 12:1 in open loop, which seemed excessively rich. In datalogging (thanks to John's definition file), the car was dropping in and out of open loop while in WOT (this shouldn't happen). John pointed me towards the tables that control open loop operation, and there are some tables that set PW limits which were still based on the old OEM injectors. I scaled these tables by the same amount as in the main fuel maps, and since then the car stays in open loop when it should, power is much better and no more hesitation & AFRs are more consistent ~12.5:1. Car feels like it should again and I think is a bit quicker (~5.2s 0-60 via datalogging without any sort of "launch" or wheelspin, just a standard acceleration from a stoplight)
I'm willing to share the .bin file I've got, but hold no responsibility for its use. Also, if interested I'd be willing to scan a chip and share the .bin info.
I think it would be interesting to build a library of "retired" chip .bin files so we know what the differences were.
The prospeed bin I used was from John's FB group in the Google Docs files. Is that yours? If so, then we have come to really the same conclusions.
Please PM me to let me know how to get my singular chip to you for reading, and we can post that to the Google Docs file. My aim of having a 3.2 L has gone down the tubes, and I'm beginning to doubt that I'll be able to source a 6-speed any time soon. I've contacted people in Japan, and got a response that due to COVID everything is way behind schedule and they are not accepting back orders and this time. I'm to contact then next year. I hope my car will be back together next year, although sometimes I wonder.
Please PM me to let me know how to get my singular chip to you for reading, and we can post that to the Google Docs file. My aim of having a 3.2 L has gone down the tubes, and I'm beginning to doubt that I'll be able to source a 6-speed any time soon. I've contacted people in Japan, and got a response that due to COVID everything is way behind schedule and they are not accepting back orders and this time. I'm to contact then next year. I hope my car will be back together next year, although sometimes I wonder.
Thanks for inviting me to this thread! I've got a ton to catch up.
I'm caught up somewhat with this thread. I'm not sure I can help directly as I'm not modifying my factory ECU. I went straight to a HKS F-Con VPro which is quite frankly pretty old by today's standards but still quite good for our 30yr old car. I can share some of my findings that might help some of you on your tuning adventures.
Some background as to what I'm currently doing of which I eluded to on this thread http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/214979-Need-help-with-IGNITION-TIMING-ADVANCE . I removed my stock CTSC (on the same HKS) and installed a custom built ITB kit. I'm working out the bugs of the ITB kit on the stock 91 3.0L engine (over 100k miles). I'm fairly close on the ITB and now building my high CR 3.5L, with headwork, maybe cams and cam gears.
My main question: Why is there no talk of timing advance on the C motors here? Is this because it's common knowledge (which I'm not privy to) that added timing doesn't do much? Or is it because no one has tried? What are the current assumptions around this? Please share your opinions. I've heard here and there through general NSX chatter that this engine likes a lot of timing from tuners. I can verify some of that (see point 2 below)
A few things I can share thus far.
* I'm using 1000cc Injector Dynamics (based off the Bosch EV14) with these ITBs and idle is not smooth at 800rpm but amazingly smooth at 1000-1100rpm. I'm considering trying RDX injectors but I find no need as i'm preparing for the 3.5L. Here's the eye opening part in terms of duty cycle... at idle i'm using 0.9% at redline WOT i'm at only 31%. 1000cc is too big for the 3.5L but it's the smallest Injector Dynamics sells these days. I bet that's because of the amazingly good low duty cycle performance.
* In regards to ignition timing advance. I've been lucky to be mentored by one of the best tuners to be involved in the NSX community. He was also an owner and was part of a team that set world records. Anyway, he shared with me his timing table. He's quite the conservative tuner and would gladly give up some power for added longevity and overall well being of the engine. Even on crap California gasoline at WOT redline his timing table is 9 degrees advance. I've personally used his map as a guideline and can go an added 3-5 degrees on top of that before noticing knock but added power is negligible so it's not worth being so close to the edge like that IMO. ITBs need to use Alpha N with MAP vacuum only useful as compensation during low load conditions so it's not quite appropriate to copy his map (nor the OEM for that matter) during the partial throttle cells.
* I'm tuning WOT to 12.8. I like a little bit of cushion. Pretty much everywhere else in the map, from low load to medium load i'm anywhere from 15.5-13 AFR.
* I've recently driven a Prospeed "custom tune" NSX. I have to admit.. I was quite impressed with the bottom end TQ. It was that noticeable. Because it was a "custom tune" I don't know which version of the chip it's closest to or is based off. I also recently drove a stock ECU NSX to compare to. What I was not impressed with the Prospeed was the roughness (for a lack of a better term). It was like comparing an 8bit to a 64bit, it was that rough.. even jerky in mid throttle low rpm parts of the map. The WOT TQ was impressive for just a reflash of sorts...
* Lastly, I also mentioned in the linked thread above... While I totally commend and support the research into the OEM ECU, I do believe a higher resolution tune from a modern ECU is worth it. Hell, i've been able to get ITBs to have driveability nearly like stock (98%'ish) - that's unheard of. It's actually noticeably smoother than the OEM ECU NSX I drove in many aspects like startup and high res control over AFR to name a couple. I know it's daunting to tune a fresh ECU (trust me.. I know) but if you have the time, it's worth it to have control over everything (tip in, decel, pressure compesators, speed compensators, barometer, nearly everything you can think of, even per cylinder AFR and timing if you want to get into the weeds). I know the cost might be prohibitive but I know some folks on here are spending mucho dinero on their cars and adding a standalone is not being considered... why?
EDIT: Something fun maybe you can helps me with. Let's assume I was able to dial in my fuel table with the 1000cc injectors on the stock 3.0L. As a baseline starting point for the 3.5L with higher lift cams and high CR on the same gas - might you add... say 15% more fuel globally as a starting point? I haven't thought of the math yet.. but eager to hear your suggestions. If cams are going in so will cam gears. That will be a whole other ball of wax...
EDIT 2: I was looking through the old Prospeed threads and found this interesting. I never looked into this before because I just wasn't interested. Have you seen his AFR plot? It's kind of all over the place, but what's more interesting is he's inheriting the OEM AFR curve. This lends me to believe he doesn't have control over the actual fuel map individual cells? I'm not quite sure honestly... but my question is.. why not try to flatten those peaks and valleys? That's probably why the car I drove had some roughness.
[/IMG]
Some background as to what I'm currently doing of which I eluded to on this thread http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/214979-Need-help-with-IGNITION-TIMING-ADVANCE . I removed my stock CTSC (on the same HKS) and installed a custom built ITB kit. I'm working out the bugs of the ITB kit on the stock 91 3.0L engine (over 100k miles). I'm fairly close on the ITB and now building my high CR 3.5L, with headwork, maybe cams and cam gears.
My main question: Why is there no talk of timing advance on the C motors here? Is this because it's common knowledge (which I'm not privy to) that added timing doesn't do much? Or is it because no one has tried? What are the current assumptions around this? Please share your opinions. I've heard here and there through general NSX chatter that this engine likes a lot of timing from tuners. I can verify some of that (see point 2 below)
A few things I can share thus far.
* I'm using 1000cc Injector Dynamics (based off the Bosch EV14) with these ITBs and idle is not smooth at 800rpm but amazingly smooth at 1000-1100rpm. I'm considering trying RDX injectors but I find no need as i'm preparing for the 3.5L. Here's the eye opening part in terms of duty cycle... at idle i'm using 0.9% at redline WOT i'm at only 31%. 1000cc is too big for the 3.5L but it's the smallest Injector Dynamics sells these days. I bet that's because of the amazingly good low duty cycle performance.
* In regards to ignition timing advance. I've been lucky to be mentored by one of the best tuners to be involved in the NSX community. He was also an owner and was part of a team that set world records. Anyway, he shared with me his timing table. He's quite the conservative tuner and would gladly give up some power for added longevity and overall well being of the engine. Even on crap California gasoline at WOT redline his timing table is 9 degrees advance. I've personally used his map as a guideline and can go an added 3-5 degrees on top of that before noticing knock but added power is negligible so it's not worth being so close to the edge like that IMO. ITBs need to use Alpha N with MAP vacuum only useful as compensation during low load conditions so it's not quite appropriate to copy his map (nor the OEM for that matter) during the partial throttle cells.
* I'm tuning WOT to 12.8. I like a little bit of cushion. Pretty much everywhere else in the map, from low load to medium load i'm anywhere from 15.5-13 AFR.
* I've recently driven a Prospeed "custom tune" NSX. I have to admit.. I was quite impressed with the bottom end TQ. It was that noticeable. Because it was a "custom tune" I don't know which version of the chip it's closest to or is based off. I also recently drove a stock ECU NSX to compare to. What I was not impressed with the Prospeed was the roughness (for a lack of a better term). It was like comparing an 8bit to a 64bit, it was that rough.. even jerky in mid throttle low rpm parts of the map. The WOT TQ was impressive for just a reflash of sorts...
* Lastly, I also mentioned in the linked thread above... While I totally commend and support the research into the OEM ECU, I do believe a higher resolution tune from a modern ECU is worth it. Hell, i've been able to get ITBs to have driveability nearly like stock (98%'ish) - that's unheard of. It's actually noticeably smoother than the OEM ECU NSX I drove in many aspects like startup and high res control over AFR to name a couple. I know it's daunting to tune a fresh ECU (trust me.. I know) but if you have the time, it's worth it to have control over everything (tip in, decel, pressure compesators, speed compensators, barometer, nearly everything you can think of, even per cylinder AFR and timing if you want to get into the weeds). I know the cost might be prohibitive but I know some folks on here are spending mucho dinero on their cars and adding a standalone is not being considered... why?
EDIT: Something fun maybe you can helps me with. Let's assume I was able to dial in my fuel table with the 1000cc injectors on the stock 3.0L. As a baseline starting point for the 3.5L with higher lift cams and high CR on the same gas - might you add... say 15% more fuel globally as a starting point? I haven't thought of the math yet.. but eager to hear your suggestions. If cams are going in so will cam gears. That will be a whole other ball of wax...
EDIT 2: I was looking through the old Prospeed threads and found this interesting. I never looked into this before because I just wasn't interested. Have you seen his AFR plot? It's kind of all over the place, but what's more interesting is he's inheriting the OEM AFR curve. This lends me to believe he doesn't have control over the actual fuel map individual cells? I'm not quite sure honestly... but my question is.. why not try to flatten those peaks and valleys? That's probably why the car I drove had some roughness.
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