It could be that the Phoenix environs are more open for driving that suburban Philadelphia area. Not many wide-open places or canyon carving here.
-
Protip: Profile posts are public! Use Conversations to message other members privately. Everyone can see the content of a profile post.
Anyone considering a Subaru BRZ or Scion FRS?
- Thread starter Jimbo
- Start date
Consumer Reports FR-S vs BRZ comparo. Interesting that they would go with the FR-S over the BRZ. I need to drive one!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PWwz7Ybpy1U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Also: interesting ad for the FR-S.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HLThzvsPCkI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PWwz7Ybpy1U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Also: interesting ad for the FR-S.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HLThzvsPCkI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Last edited:
- Joined
- 25 February 2012
- Messages
- 2,166
That is an awesome commercial. I also like this one:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Oh_4S40KyHs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Totally different flavor, but just as powerful.
As for the car I haven't driven one so I can't say... but I agree with Kelvin, the NSX is pretty darn exciting to drive on the road where I live. I don't think there's a car in the world that can make sitting in traffic exciting, if that's what you're after...
The Rx8 loses a lot of power to the wheels apparently. The Rx8 dyno I saw puts down ~175whp. I've seen the Scion example put about 167-170whp too. The 9000 rpm on the Rx8 is very fun though, even if the engine is not as reliable as the conventional.
However I agree, at ~$25K, this FRS/BRZ is not really a good buy considering the whole package. I think it were to have 250-280 hp with better interior refinement, $27.5K would have been the magic price for such a car.
Wow, all these commercials are so, so good.
They're about the love and thrill of driving. Something that is disappearing from our culture, or at least contracting.
I actually went through a similar comparison myself recently, except I was looking at an elise instead of a 370z. Basically, compared the elise, the BRZ, and the cayman.
The elise and cayman have both been on my list of "must own" cars, and I think I've added the BRZ to the list as well. I still have my preorder open on a BRZ, but ended up picking up a cayman for a GREAT price, and have been loving it. I figure once the hype from the BRZ dies down, I can sell the cayman
for little to no loss, and pick up a BRZ. After some extended time in the elise, I realized as much as I wanted to make it work for a daily driver, I just couldn't, and I don't have room for another weekend car right now
Best of luck to everyone with their new 86's!
To your point and Nero's point the WRX (not STi) is also a great buy at $25k.
I think it all depends what each of you prioritize in a car. I've said it many many times... This car isn't for everybody.
Here's a pic I took of a BRZ with the NSX today. The BRZ is getting custom equal length Tri-Y headers developed. It's a bit taller than the NSX but noticeably shorter.
RYU and hlakhani, many great points! This new entry is a refreshing driver's car that is affordable and fuel efficient as well. The WRX is a great deal at the price; you really have to compare it vs. the BRZ in many respects, especially for drivers in the cold-weather states who need greater winter traction from front or all-wheel drive when using it as a DD.
The RX-8 is a great handling car, which has won shoot-outs against the best competiton many times above its price for that attribute, but the gas mileage is a concern. I know someone who had their RX-8 destroyed as a result of the Cash for Clunkers program, as it qualified because of the poor fuel economy. Low torque engine but still lots of fun; I've owned rotaries and have learned to love them, despite their warts.
I am really tempted to drive a Cayman; in fact, a friend is trying to convince me to repalce my NSX with one. It looks much smaller but the exterior dimensions (L & W) are nearly the same; the NSX, of course, is much lower (and sexier).
My analysis: if Consumer Reports recommends the FR-S, then I would buy the BRZ. Just sayin'...
The RX-8 is a great handling car, which has won shoot-outs against the best competiton many times above its price for that attribute, but the gas mileage is a concern. I know someone who had their RX-8 destroyed as a result of the Cash for Clunkers program, as it qualified because of the poor fuel economy. Low torque engine but still lots of fun; I've owned rotaries and have learned to love them, despite their warts.
I am really tempted to drive a Cayman; in fact, a friend is trying to convince me to repalce my NSX with one. It looks much smaller but the exterior dimensions (L & W) are nearly the same; the NSX, of course, is much lower (and sexier).
My analysis: if Consumer Reports recommends the FR-S, then I would buy the BRZ. Just sayin'...
Cayman is a great option except the lack of warranty. I also agree on consumer reports. They've become the national inquirer of car reviews
Jimbo - you might like this mod for your daily driver BRZ. :biggrin:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15239
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15239
Last edited:
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great car to drive and probably to own due to it being a Toyota with good MPG and most likely very few problems. I am also glad that they prioritized handling and balance above all else from conception onward. BUT to me, Toyota products all look and feel cheap- even the LFA looks really cheap to me (also happens to be an extremely poor value). The FT86 concept looked like a $50k car for $25k and the production version looks like a $15k car for $30k, especially when you consider the poor interior. Hugely disappointing. I think it can look better and there's potential there as the race car version looks nice, but you need another $30k in parts to achieve that. I'm just always surprised how Toyota's cost control team can hurt their products. Just look at the itty bitty shitty tires that come with it! They probably figured most owners were going to get new wheels anyways? I get that this car is for a certain market, the drifter fanboys who are now a bit more grown up and looking for a toy, but I think the bottom line is still that this car should have cost less. But, it has generated a lot of buzz and is a hot item right now. I am sure they will sell well and it does have a lot of X-factor going for it as you mentioned. I was hoping for a bit more X factor in the realm of beauty that pulls at your emotions, but for me that is just totally absent and I keep longing for it after seeing the concept. I am definitely interested in what the aftermarket does with it, especially the tuners that aim to take it further in the OEM style trajectory but there are things that I saw in the concept that I know cannot be fixed (such as the tectonic, sculptural quality of the fenders which became amorphous blob as the car became bloated, and the cheapo headlights).
Nero, that's just it though... I still think you guys are missing the point entirely. Again, please don't take offense. I love these debates and I could be wrong myself.
The Michelin Primacy Prius tires used are 100% by design and on purpose. This is a car that can be driven at it's limits easily by almost anyone. In contrast, the NSX can be driven easily at it's limits by almost no one. This is the common complaint about today's high powered supercars, black series, M's, F's, S's, Type-R, and whatever.
Being able to control oversteer/understeer on command is totally underrated in my book. It's a lot of fun. If this car had too much power then you're forced to feather the throttle so much more delicately and the margin of error is much greater. I can tell you this is what happened to my NSX after I went CTSC. Straight-line performance is great but I had to relearn exit speeds and needed to gain extra sensitivity on my right foot and not mash that pedal as hard as I use to. The corner exit grip point is a lot more "touchy". Hope that makes sense.
Just listen to Randy Pobst's BRZ review I posted earlier and see the big smile on his face. This was driving the BRZ back to back against the Aventador.
I do agree with you in that the BRZ/FRS is about $2k too expensive but until a worthy competitor shows up (hopefully from Honda!) they will be able to command a $25-28k price for this car all day long.
The "poor value" comments are interesting. Poor value against what? There's not many fun, affordable rear-wheel drive cars out there. The RX-8 isn't made any more - and even if it was the poor mileage goes against the value argument. Compared to a BMW 1 series or a Cayman or an Elise - I think the BRZ is an excellent value. The 370Z has un-inspired handling (not just my opinion). The Miata handles nicely (although the BRZ handles better) but it's too small and has limited cargo capacity. i guess there's the Camaro or Mustang but neither one handles as nicely as the BRZ/FR-S.
- Joined
- 22 April 2012
- Messages
- 665
I'll be picking up a White FR-S (auto) sometime next year to replace my daily driver. It's ridiculous how perfect this car would suit my needs. Finally, a good looking, rear wheel drive sports coupe with nice trunk space and low maintenance thats relatively cheap. They put a really good 6-speed auto transmission in it too. It's derived from the IS250/350/IS-F. I had an IS250 and the auto tranny was unbelievably smooth and accurate.
Last edited:
a couple of comments...
1) The cayman is an amazing car and i love it and find it extremely practical, even though it's only a 2 seater. It feels very roomy inside, has good overall visibility and two nicely sized trunks. Obviously, lack of warranty is/can be an issue. This is a calculated risk, but these cars are generally quite reliable. The flip side is less depreciation, and the subjective value proposition of not paying $28k for a $25k (quality-wise) car as in the BRZ/FRS.
2) On paper, the cayman is very similar to the NSX. but the experience is like night and day. It's a great compliment to the NSX, but not really a replacement unless you're looking for a drastically different experience.
3) I sort of touched on the value proposition of buying a used "premium" car at a non-premium price, but I don't want that to be misconstrued as implying the FRS/BRZ are overpriced. Yes, people are paying MSRP (or higher). Yes, there is a lot of hype around this car keeping the price from coming down. Yes, there are parts of the car that accentuate its "low target price". Yes, of course, it would be great if it were cheaper.
But as Jimbo pointed out, this car has no direct competitors, and offers a unique mix of features that will appeal to a certain type of buyer. To those buyers, a group in which I include myself, this is easily worth the price.
It would be difficult to find a car that is reliable, fun, ECONOMICAL and handles well while having a back seat(sort of) and ample cargo space at any price. When the cost of a prius or an accord are reaching that same level, and an mx-5 isn't radically less, the price of the FRS/BRZ twins doesn't really sound so bad.
I mean, let's be real here. We are on a forum dedicated to the most expensive road-going Honda ever built. A car that, within only a few years, found itself to be underpowered and overpriced compared to the competition. Yet, many of us here (still) own one. I chose the NSX over much faster, vastly more practical cars that would have cost me less -- as I'm sure many others here did.
I think of the price and value like this; We are are excited and talking about the car on an NSX forum. We are discussing it and comparing it with well-regarded, higher valued cars (cayman, 370z, s2000, etc.), as well as cars with a reputation for having a mega performance-value (mx-5, mustang, etc.), and it's holding its own while bringing something unique to the table. Given all of this, is it really fair to say this car is too expensive? After all, $24k gets you a civic with navi. A few extra to pay for something potentially special really isn't so bad...
1) The cayman is an amazing car and i love it and find it extremely practical, even though it's only a 2 seater. It feels very roomy inside, has good overall visibility and two nicely sized trunks. Obviously, lack of warranty is/can be an issue. This is a calculated risk, but these cars are generally quite reliable. The flip side is less depreciation, and the subjective value proposition of not paying $28k for a $25k (quality-wise) car as in the BRZ/FRS.
2) On paper, the cayman is very similar to the NSX. but the experience is like night and day. It's a great compliment to the NSX, but not really a replacement unless you're looking for a drastically different experience.
3) I sort of touched on the value proposition of buying a used "premium" car at a non-premium price, but I don't want that to be misconstrued as implying the FRS/BRZ are overpriced. Yes, people are paying MSRP (or higher). Yes, there is a lot of hype around this car keeping the price from coming down. Yes, there are parts of the car that accentuate its "low target price". Yes, of course, it would be great if it were cheaper.
But as Jimbo pointed out, this car has no direct competitors, and offers a unique mix of features that will appeal to a certain type of buyer. To those buyers, a group in which I include myself, this is easily worth the price.
It would be difficult to find a car that is reliable, fun, ECONOMICAL and handles well while having a back seat(sort of) and ample cargo space at any price. When the cost of a prius or an accord are reaching that same level, and an mx-5 isn't radically less, the price of the FRS/BRZ twins doesn't really sound so bad.
I mean, let's be real here. We are on a forum dedicated to the most expensive road-going Honda ever built. A car that, within only a few years, found itself to be underpowered and overpriced compared to the competition. Yet, many of us here (still) own one. I chose the NSX over much faster, vastly more practical cars that would have cost me less -- as I'm sure many others here did.
I think of the price and value like this; We are are excited and talking about the car on an NSX forum. We are discussing it and comparing it with well-regarded, higher valued cars (cayman, 370z, s2000, etc.), as well as cars with a reputation for having a mega performance-value (mx-5, mustang, etc.), and it's holding its own while bringing something unique to the table. Given all of this, is it really fair to say this car is too expensive? After all, $24k gets you a civic with navi. A few extra to pay for something potentially special really isn't so bad...
- Joined
- 25 February 2012
- Messages
- 2,166
Not to mention, new cars have always been overpriced relative to used ones. Cars lose a lot of value the second you drive them off the lot.
In a few years the market will have done its price discovery thing and settled on the approximate value of a used FRS/BRZ. At that time we will see how it sits in the 370z-Cayman spectrum.
In a few years the market will have done its price discovery thing and settled on the approximate value of a used FRS/BRZ. At that time we will see how it sits in the 370z-Cayman spectrum.
All very insightful comments!
A follow-up: Having not (yet) driven a Cayman, I'd value your thoughts on how the experience is very different.... thanks!
+1
Everything about the Cayman I love more than the BRZ except the maintenance/warranty issue. For a car I plan to beat on it just seems a car like a Porsche isn't the most financially sound idea. Would love to be proven wrong. We all know the Cayman provides more parking lot bravado at the very least.
Did you get a 6spd or a Tip?
Motortrend just finished their "Best Driver's Car" comparo. See where your favorite car stacked up!
http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1208_2012_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QBfugbEIlk4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1208_2012_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QBfugbEIlk4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
+1
Everything about the Cayman I love more than the BRZ except the maintenance/warranty issue. For a car I plan to beat on it just seems a car like a Porsche isn't the most financially sound idea. Would love to be proven wrong. We all know the Cayman provides more parking lot bravado at the very least.
Did you get a 6spd or a Tip?
I know there are people who use the Cayman as a DD; here in Michigan that just isn't a possibility! The BRZ would be a cool DD; it would get better gas mileage than my MazSpeed3 (albeit slower and less practical), and could double for autoX use too!
Up here in The D, I'd see a Cayman as more of a summer car, which is where the NSX sits in my world. Hence my interest in the "experience" between the two as hlakhani had mentioned earlier.... not that I am looking to repalce the NSX, but more out of curiosity.
Well they did give some validity to our discussion, the FRS is a well balanced car that's great fun to drive around a corner but underpowered and sometimes underwhelming. If you look at the other cars they compared it against then it sure is a bargain, and to even be in the comparison test is quite a feat. Maybe a TRD version of the FRS will help it along :wink:
When I saw the lineup, I said oh the 911 is going to win this one easily without a Ferrari in the lineup. Where is the 458?? Personally I don't think I could have done much but stare at the black McLaren if I were testing these cars :smile: And why do they bother inviting these porker American cars to these things, they are obvious losers for "best driver's car" and just take up space. I guess they are just there bc it's courteous to include them.
I was also really surprised to hear that the Mercedes is reaching BMW M levels of handling prowess... though I like the looks of the CLK63 much better.
Nero, I was really surprised how well the Black Series did! Almost makes me want one too
These comparos are always up for debate. It's virtually impossible to please everyone. I would have liked to see an M3 on here and a Audi TTRS perhaps. What about the 2013 Viper? I do like the comparo for what it is. It was a fun watch. The drag race was especially fun to watch. Yes, the BRZ got owned :biggrin:
Here's a pretty good comparo with a buddy driving his BRZ vs. a random modded S2k. The commentary is also fun to watch. This was at Buttonwillow a few wks ago. We know the S2000 is a fast car but if anything.. this video proves that even short 40+ hp.. the BRZ is no slouch either.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gaArJZOMCpI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
These comparos are always up for debate. It's virtually impossible to please everyone. I would have liked to see an M3 on here and a Audi TTRS perhaps. What about the 2013 Viper? I do like the comparo for what it is. It was a fun watch. The drag race was especially fun to watch. Yes, the BRZ got owned :biggrin:
Here's a pretty good comparo with a buddy driving his BRZ vs. a random modded S2k. The commentary is also fun to watch. This was at Buttonwillow a few wks ago. We know the S2000 is a fast car but if anything.. this video proves that even short 40+ hp.. the BRZ is no slouch either.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gaArJZOMCpI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
