Thanks Adamantium I stand corrected on the Aventador but the upshift at full throttle is still truly amazing.
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Article on why manual shifting transmissions are being phased out
- Thread starter JD Cross
- Start date
Thanks Adamantium I stand corrected on the Aventador but the upshift at full throttle is still truly amazing.
People can explain the technical advantages of modern automated gearboxes all day long, but I still don't want one.
Agreed. 4 manual trans Acuras in my ownership currently. I need a clutch pedal in my life.
Honest answer w/o rationalization ★★★★★
well noone denies they are faster but it's not about sheer speed as you could get professional driver to take you faster around the circuit if that was your goal
btw those Underground monster Lambos and similar very high hp cars (>1500 whp) still use manual transmissions for their texas miles records, and those would wipe the floor with all the cars you mentioned in your post
I believe they are - we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
well noone denies they are faster but it's not about sheer speed as you could get professional driver to take you faster around the circuit if that was your goal
btw those Underground monster Lambos and similar very high hp cars (>1500 whp) still use manual transmissions for their texas miles records, and those would wipe the floor with all the cars you mentioned in your post
Underground lambos were recently handed their arses by AMS in a gtr. If you watch the racing, it's very clear how much advantage comes from the twin clutch.
Btw. I'm all for people saying they prefer to use a manual, so long as they don't tell me it's purer than a twin clutch.
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fastaussie
Suspended
there's really only one reason the manufacturers aren't making manual motorcars anymore. no one buys them...
apparently not true since this year their sales raised in comparison with last year
For the manual transmission aficionados out there, here's two options:
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/cadillac-ats-v-revealed-2014-11-19
http://jalopnik.com/sweet-merciful-crapples-2016-jaguar-f-type-will-have-a-1660605262
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/cadillac-ats-v-revealed-2014-11-19
http://jalopnik.com/sweet-merciful-crapples-2016-jaguar-f-type-will-have-a-1660605262
fastaussie
Suspended
sales may have increased for whichever brand and model you're talking about. but when Audi sells less than 5% manuals, and Ferrari less than 2% manuals, the option disappears, as they have...
Well, for having previously owned an Integra GSR and currently owning an S2000, two cars with arguably some of the best acting manual gearboxes ever made... I love dual-clutch gearboxes, and find them more fun on both street and track settings. It's g-forces and the changes thereof that that really get my adrenaline. Executing a gear shift change, something I can do in a garage with a turned off car with manual gearbox, just really isn't interesting in and of itself. Some of my most exciting motorsports activities have been in a single-speed kart.
Traditional slush-box transmissions like you'd get in a typical rental car are indeed horrific to me - slow, mushy, nauseatingly disconnecting the engine from the wheels. Manual gearboxes are vastly superior to them, in my opinion. There's the direct connection between throttle, engine and tires. There's the immediate response of physically moving bits around. Everything is immediate and connected. And dual-clutch gearboxes now have those qualities as well. (Even some TC gearboxes like ZF's 8HP used in BMWs and such.)
The act of moving a manual gear shift knob and a dual-clutch gear shift level are essentially the same except for a minor difference feel (switch vs rods vs cables.) Adding a 3rd pedal doesn't change things - for example, installing a 3rd pedal in dual-clutch cars that acts as a lockout preventing shifts unless it's pressed would bring nothing to the table in terms of fun for me even though it would get pretty close to mirroring the manual gearbox experience. Also, the fact that properly shifting a manual is more difficult doesn't make the drive more enjoyable for me either - just like having a badly handling, and therefore more difficult to drive, car isn't more enjoyable than a well balanced handling car.
Anyway, just my view on it, not trying to convince anybody that my view is the Only One True view.
Traditional slush-box transmissions like you'd get in a typical rental car are indeed horrific to me - slow, mushy, nauseatingly disconnecting the engine from the wheels. Manual gearboxes are vastly superior to them, in my opinion. There's the direct connection between throttle, engine and tires. There's the immediate response of physically moving bits around. Everything is immediate and connected. And dual-clutch gearboxes now have those qualities as well. (Even some TC gearboxes like ZF's 8HP used in BMWs and such.)
The act of moving a manual gear shift knob and a dual-clutch gear shift level are essentially the same except for a minor difference feel (switch vs rods vs cables.) Adding a 3rd pedal doesn't change things - for example, installing a 3rd pedal in dual-clutch cars that acts as a lockout preventing shifts unless it's pressed would bring nothing to the table in terms of fun for me even though it would get pretty close to mirroring the manual gearbox experience. Also, the fact that properly shifting a manual is more difficult doesn't make the drive more enjoyable for me either - just like having a badly handling, and therefore more difficult to drive, car isn't more enjoyable than a well balanced handling car.
Anyway, just my view on it, not trying to convince anybody that my view is the Only One True view.
- Joined
- 27 October 2013
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- 43
Not a fan when I have to take my hands off to shift from 2nd to 3rd in my E46 M or NSX while turning hard. That is why I appreciate the convenience of DCT and it's blazing fast shifts, but I'll always enjoy a manual more than DCT.
I believe manual will still have a place in the lower cost/enthusiast sports car in the future. Mainly due to lower costs and ease of maintenance. While cars that are too fast to handle for average Joe will have DCT.
I believe manual will still have a place in the lower cost/enthusiast sports car in the future. Mainly due to lower costs and ease of maintenance. While cars that are too fast to handle for average Joe will have DCT.
Aren't you supposed to avoid changing gear on a hard bend due to the torque transfer upsetting the handling? I'm not a great driver, so don't profess to know such things, but I recall being told that.
- Joined
- 27 October 2013
- Messages
- 43
There are times when you enter a decreasing radius corner with 3rd to 2nd drop, then mid-corner you run out of revs and need to shift to 3rd. I was taught with the same concept not to shift mid corner, but it's not that bad once the weight shifted to the outside tires. As long you're not power-shifting or wrong gas/clutch engagement then you're all good. Hitting rev-limit with the engine output knocking on the top is more unsettling I think.
Well, for having previously owned an Integra GSR and currently owning an S2000, two cars with arguably some of the best acting manual gearboxes ever made... I love dual-clutch gearboxes, and find them more fun on both street and track settings. It's g-forces and the changes thereof that that really get my adrenaline. Executing a gear shift change, something I can do in a garage with a turned off car with manual gearbox, just really isn't interesting in and of itself. Some of my most exciting motorsports activities have been in a single-speed kart.
Traditional slush-box transmissions like you'd get in a typical rental car are indeed horrific to me - slow, mushy, nauseatingly disconnecting the engine from the wheels. Manual gearboxes are vastly superior to them, in my opinion. There's the direct connection between throttle, engine and tires. There's the immediate response of physically moving bits around. Everything is immediate and connected. And dual-clutch gearboxes now have those qualities as well. (Even some TC gearboxes like ZF's 8HP used in BMWs and such.)
The act of moving a manual gear shift knob and a dual-clutch gear shift level are essentially the same except for a minor difference feel (switch vs rods vs cables.) Adding a 3rd pedal doesn't change things - for example, installing a 3rd pedal in dual-clutch cars that acts as a lockout preventing shifts unless it's pressed would bring nothing to the table in terms of fun for me even though it would get pretty close to mirroring the manual gearbox experience. Also, the fact that properly shifting a manual is more difficult doesn't make the drive more enjoyable for me either - just like having a badly handling, and therefore more difficult to drive, car isn't more enjoyable than a well balanced handling car.
Anyway, just my view on it, not trying to convince anybody that my view is the Only One True view.
This is a good summary. The shifting sequence with the car off does nothing for excitement or even in a car that is not performance very oriented, say a 160 hp Toyota pick-up truck. It's the actual change in g forces and acceleration that make it exciting during a mechanical shift versus a torque converted connection that is generally "slow and slushy A DCT provides even more precise control of shifting sans a 3rd clutch pedal. So your right calf finally has a chance to catch up in hypertrophy eh?
I've driven a DCT exotic. WONDERFUL, but with non-trivial trade-offs.
Pros: Perfect shifting (smooth in normal mode, crazy fast in sport). No idiot driver going to burn up clutch quickly. No idiot driver going to money shift. Auto mode when you feel like it.
Cons: Losing mechanical connection to drivetrain. Programmed behavior cannot read your mind.
Consider this common occurrence in a manual NSX: You accelerate through two gears then push in the clutch. Smooth experience. Switch to a DCT and when you lift after the second gear - because clutch is still engaged - you get jerking deceleration and engine still at very high RPM. Apparently the trick is to remember to click the upshift lever a couple/few times before lifting. This requires foresight. (Which maybe is fine in manual mode, but in auto mode how is car to read your mind about what your intentions are?) Traditional autos are less-harsh thanks to their torque converters.
Also, I fear the next NSX will have paddle shifters like my RL. Tiny and single purpose (left to downshift, right to upshift) instead of the nice, big, push/pull rocker mechanism like in the McLarens (which feel right and enable single-handed operation when just driving around town). I also fear the levers wI'll be dead in auto mode (like my RL). I'm told that some exotics keep them active even in auto mode to give you, the driver, temporary override/intervention which is all too necessary.
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Doesn't matter, really. Sequential requires the effort of a physical lever. When it is electronic the paddles are far superior. I'm glad to see Acura doing away with the P-R-N-D lever entirely on auto/DCT vehicles and replacing with buttons.
Pros: Perfect shifting (smooth in normal mode, crazy fast in sport). No idiot driver going to burn up clutch quickly. No idiot driver going to money shift. Auto mode when you feel like it.
Cons: Losing mechanical connection to drivetrain. Programmed behavior cannot read your mind.
Consider this common occurrence in a manual NSX: You accelerate through two gears then push in the clutch. Smooth experience. Switch to a DCT and when you lift after the second gear - because clutch is still engaged - you get jerking deceleration and engine still at very high RPM. Apparently the trick is to remember to click the upshift lever a couple/few times before lifting. This requires foresight. (Which maybe is fine in manual mode, but in auto mode how is car to read your mind about what your intentions are?) Traditional autos are less-harsh thanks to their torque converters.
Also, I fear the next NSX will have paddle shifters like my RL. Tiny and single purpose (left to downshift, right to upshift) instead of the nice, big, push/pull rocker mechanism like in the McLarens (which feel right and enable single-handed operation when just driving around town). I also fear the levers wI'll be dead in auto mode (like my RL). I'm told that some exotics keep them active even in auto mode to give you, the driver, temporary override/intervention which is all too necessary.
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This is another idea Acura managed to screw up. On my RL forward is upshift and back is downshift (opposite of sequential). Did Audi get it right?
Doesn't matter, really. Sequential requires the effort of a physical lever. When it is electronic the paddles are far superior. I'm glad to see Acura doing away with the P-R-N-D lever entirely on auto/DCT vehicles and replacing with buttons.
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No audi didn't get it right, but it's just four wires. They can be easily switched by anyone who can be bothered.
Here's how that situation works for me:
If I'm at an autocross or track day, whether I'm driving a manual car or dual-clutch, I leave the drivetrain fully engaged as I jump on the brakes. So no difference between the two style transmissions there.
If I'm on the street and having some acceleration fun, in a manual I quickly shift to 3rd then 4th then 5th, not just push in the clutch. In a paddle-shift car, I again quickly shift up the gears. Again, no real difference for my style of driving.
By the way, that jerkiness you feel coming off the gas in a dual-clutch car...? That's an example of the driver having the same mechanical connection to the drivetrain as in a manual.
I agree about the programmed behavior - not every manufacture gets it right.
On my BMW, using the paddle shifters will temporarily override automatic mode and put the transmission into manual. After a period of sedate driving, it'll go back to full auto.
This is another thing BMW got right - push forward to downshift, pull back to upshift. Also, I'm glad the center-mounted shift lever is there - some lower speed turns require enough steering input that the paddle shifters aren't good to use.
I had the pleasure of driving a Ferrari 430 and a Lamborghini Gallardo this past weekend on one of those Groupon offers. Both car were 2006s and had DCT. Lambo got it wrong. The paddles are short so you have to reach with your fingers with the wheel turned. The transmission seemed a bit clunky on gear changes and the gear changes were a bit slower than the Ferrari especially on down shifts. I was wishing it to be a manual the whole time. The Lambo sounds better, is faster, lighter and better looking than the F430. The 430's paddles are much longer so you don't have to reach as much for them with the wheel turned It would be much better if they were attached directly to the wheel so that they moved with the wheel. The 430 shifted much smoother and about as fast as you could touch the paddle. I didn't miss the manual tranny as much on the Ferrari. Overall the 430 was a better finished, more comfortable car than the Lambo. And I felt like I had more control of the shifting process. Both cars are incredible, fun to drive and very fast.
One correction: the F430 F1 transmission is not a dual clutch. I've driven one and found it pretty clunky at low speeds. I don't know about the Gallardo.
The new Porsche 991 Carrera GTS comes with two transmission options – a manual and an automated dual clutch. With the same engine, the manual takes 10% longer to get to 60 mph and in the standard EU fuel consumption test, consumes 10% more fuel. That test is used to calculate the manufacturer's fleet fuel consumption and if it's too high, the government fines. If I remember correctly, Lamborghini stated that in the UK, when buyers had the choice, only 5% configured their Gallardos with manual transmissions, doubtlessly influenced by traffic density.
Even if many people find them more fun, these are dark days for the manual transmission.
Even if many people find them more fun, these are dark days for the manual transmission.
Like I said... Market driven! The sub text is that the market is old(er) men who don't prefer to put in the work it takes to drive a car anymore. The tech evolving to be faster and "better" is the perfect excuse to let them still feel good about watering down the sport driving experience. "Oh but the traffic" [emoji23]
It's market and legislation driven.
It would be interesting to see the demographics of who still orders a manual transmission. It may well be old(er) men while young people who never learned to drive stick are happy with a PlayStation-like DCT.
It would be interesting to see the demographics of who still orders a manual transmission. It may well be old(er) men while young people who never learned to drive stick are happy with a PlayStation-like DCT.
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