Article on why manual shifting transmissions are being phased out

[Adamantium]

Same old comments I heard when the gt-r was released. Sadly you just have to deal with it. I was staunchly anti auto, but as stated, a dct is not a manual. Number of pedals are irrelevant, it's a torque converter that creates the disadvantage of an auto box.

I'm now at the point where I won't but a car that isn't a twin clutch as I resent the other lesser forms of technology.


The NSX is a technological tour de force, it would be an embarrassment to offer it with a manual. Not just that but the whole purpose of a hybrid is to be able to make a bold claim about CO2 emissions and gas mileage. Why would the manufacturer handicap themself by offering a manual gearbox? It would be slower, less clean and less efficient. Not what you want to be showing off to the world as your halo product really.

 

[BATMANs]

Most who experience DCT, PDK, dual clutch type transmissions for more than 30 minutes, quickly learn the manual is an inferior shifting technology - either you get it or you don't.

True, but there are times that I just (as ENT pointed out) be able to just run through the gears with arm and left leg instead of just fingers.

perfect world for me is a combo of DCT and manual cars.

 

[jones83]

DCT is faster, but you are less connected to the car. The .1 in speed I lose is greatly outweighed by the joy I get in shifting myself. The new vette is 60/40 in auto to manual ratio. I'm surprised it isn't the other way around. America is a large reason for the manual still being around.

p.s. Grown men talking about their left leg going numb from shifting in traffic should feel shameful. Some countries have manual transmissions and deal with far more severe traffic than the US.

 

[BATMANs]

Someone mentioned bikes?

Try bespoke.....

 

[Hothonda]

Little of both:

 

[fastaussie]

oooh, that white NSX is stunning...

- - - Updated - - -

I think those who demand a manual just need to buy a car with one and not bother complaining about a car that doesn't have a manual.

pretty much, the cars currently being produced without a manual will never be offered with a manual again. that ship has sailed boys...

 

[JD Cross]

The new vette is 60/40 in auto to manual ratio. I'm surprised it isn't the other way around. America is a large reason for the manual still being around. p.s. Grown men talking about their left leg going numb from shifting in traffic should feel shameful. Some countries have manual transmissions and deal with far more severe traffic than the US.

Hold on there young fella.
When you've been around a couple of decades longer you may find out about the reality of arthritis/joint/back pain and both pushing a heavy performance clutch and even a shifter can be less than enjoyable.
Ask yourself why 60% of Corvette owners would buy an automatic.
Sounds like heresy no?
I think it's because Corvettes appeal to an older demographic and owners want ease of driving over some loss of performance.

Also America is not the reason there are manuals still around.
You might read this article in Edmunds from a few years back on manual transmissions.
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/five-myths-about-stick-shifts.html
You'll note in the article that less than 4 % of new cars sold in 2013 had manuals.

As far as those countries with manuals that you mention, I think you'll find most of the manuals are in economy 4 cylinder models with very light clutches.

I believe most if not all 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickups now come with automatics only.
If you've ever driven a manual V8 powered 3/4 ton pickup in traffic you'll know why.

 

[Olyar15]

And with modern automatics, you don't even suffer the loss in performance. You actually gain performance. In the latest C&D mag, the Corvette Z06 auto was faster than the manual. In basically every criteria except weight, autos are better. Only reason to get a manual is simply because the driver wants one.

 

[Adamantium]

I find it funny that anyone would think that America is responsible for the manual still being around. In the UK we're led to believe that most US kids only learn to drive automatic and those that I've met over the years have stated at me blankly when I mention stick shifting.

Everyone brit I know with a driving license can drive manual, the only people I know with an auto only license are Americans. They're pretty much all New Yorkers and hate driving so it's probably a very unfair representation.

 

[The King]

Same old comments I heard when the gt-r was released. Sadly you just have to deal with it. I was staunchly anti auto, but as stated, a dct is not a manual. Number of pedals are irrelevant, it's a torque converter that creates the disadvantage of an auto box.

I'm now at the point where I won't but a car that isn't a twin clutch as I resent the other lesser forms of technology.


The NSX is a technological tour de force, it would be an embarrassment to offer it with a manual. Not just that but the whole purpose of a hybrid is to be able to make a bold claim about CO2 emissions and gas mileage. Why would the manufacturer handicap themself by offering a manual gearbox? It would be slower, less clean and less efficient. Not what you want to be showing off to the world as your halo product really.[/QUO

You are hearing the same old comments because, believe it or not, some people just like driving manuals. They don't give a flying f--- that an auto paddle shift car might be a second a lap quicker than a manual around some particular track. Fortunately there are still a handful of companies that have the balls to offer sticks in their sports cars. Honda is not one of them. It seems that over the years, auto NSX drivers on this forum were regarded as not playing with a full deck. Now it seems that they were the smart ones all along. Obviously the value of the autos are going to go through the roof anytime now!
Don't bother pounding on your keyboard to inform me that there is no comparison between an old auto NSX and modern dual clutch transmissions. I still don't want one, and I'm quite sure there many on this forum that feel the same way.

 

[Elistan]

It seems that over the years, auto NSX drivers on this forum were regarded as not playing with a full deck. Now it seems that they were the smart ones all along. Obviously the value of the autos are going to go through the roof anytime now!

Nah. People liking DCTs isn't going to cause prices of 4spd slushbox cars to go up any.

 

[JD Cross]

You are hearing the same old comments because, believe it or not, some people just like driving manuals. They don't give a flying f--- that an auto paddle shift car might be a second a lap quicker than a manual around some particular track. Fortunately there are still a handful of companies that have the balls to offer sticks in their sports cars. Honda is not one of them.

There's no question shifting. clutching, heel and toeing, braking and steering in a manual transmission car is an engaging process for a driver.
Great satisfaction can be had when all these activities mesh properly and one feels they have mastered control of the car.
In a mid engined car with the necessary long shifter linkages Honda did a great job with the NSX manual system compared to other mid engined cars in the same era.

I don't think it's a fair critique of Honda that they are discontinuing the manual.
They operate in a competitive marketplace and the competition has moved away from traditional clutch/gearbox/shifter configurations into the newer form of clutch/gearbox/solenoid drivelines.

In the market segment involving high performance hybrid drivelines (918,P1,La Ferrari) the benchmark is a DCT configuration.
As the new NSX is positioned in this segment Honda has little choice but to offer a similar setup.
With the new NSX, performance data will be mercilessly compared to the above hybrids and also non hybrids (458, 458 turbo?, GT3, 911 turbo, GTR).
Acceleration, track times, and to a lesser extent emissions will all be discussed/applauded/critiqued by the public and the press.
These performance numbers would all suffer with a traditional manual so I can see why Honda has no choice but to go DCT.
And for a limited volume car like the NSX two transmissions make no sense.

Perhaps this means manuals will only be offered in the lower performance grouping below the above mentioned cars.
It seems anything over 450 hp is DCT and below 450 some manuals are offered.
There may be some engineering reason for this or perhaps the lower performance models (911, 911S etc.) sell in enough volume to warrant the expense of two transmissions.

If the new NSX is the first step in the repositioning of Acura and a simpler, lighter mini-NSX/S2000 is next then perhaps a manual will be offered there.

King, if you were in Ted Klaus' shoes what transmission would you have put in the new NSX?

 

[jones83]

Hold on there young fella.
When you've been around a couple of decades longer you may find out about the reality of arthritis/joint/back pain and both pushing a heavy performance clutch and even a shifter can be less than enjoyable.
Ask yourself why 60% of Corvette owners would buy an automatic.
Sounds like heresy no?
I think it's because Corvettes appeal to an older demographic and owners want ease of driving over some loss of performance.

Also America is not the reason there are manuals still around.
You might read this article in Edmunds from a few years back on manual transmissions.
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/five-myths-about-stick-shifts.html
You'll note in the article that less than 4 % of new cars sold in 2013 had manuals.

As far as those countries with manuals that you mention, I think you'll find most of the manuals are in economy 4 cylinder models with very light clutches.

I believe most if not all 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickups now come with automatics only.
If you've ever driven a manual V8 powered 3/4 ton pickup in traffic you'll know why.

I never said America is the only reason. Right off the top of my head I can think about the BMW M5 saloon being an auto everywhere but in America. I think about the Jeep, Cadillac, Viper, Corvette, etc. all coming with manuals still, and in large quantities.

Nissan frontiers comes 6 speed(I have one), Tacomas here comes manual. Dodge Rams and Chevy Silverados still come manuals. Manual trucks are definitely not dead in America. My first truck had a column shifter with a V8 that I drove in traffic to get to school. I love manuals, but I don't have arthritis/joint pain in my legs, luckily. I have back pain at times from a lifting injury.

 

[areout]

so are you saying someone would point out to manual NSX and say "this car is slow" because it's one or two tenths slower to 0-60? I doubt so...

again DCT is not the problem, having no option is for many of us although some might get the DCT after all

Perhaps you're not an old guy like me so you've not experienced driving in the 60's
Trust me with a carbureted, ignition points, column shifter car in cold weather you were very much involved with the operation of those components.
Trying to start a car in winter involved all kinds of carburetor/choke adjusting, filing ignition points ( we all had a points file in the car) and a sloppy column shifter with a cold transmission was very involving.

well I'm not that old but I still learned to drive on old Zastava/Fiat 128 which had choke and I'm familiar with that, however there is a huge difference between starting/bringing it to working temperature and driving the car, it's good we have fuel injection

 

[jones83]

There's no question shifting. clutching, heel and toeing, braking and steering in a manual transmission car is an engaging process for a driver.
Great satisfaction can be had when all these activities mesh properly and one feels they have mastered control of the car.
In a mid engined car with the necessary long shifter linkages Honda did a great job with the NSX manual system compared to other mid engined cars in the same era.

I don't think it's a fair critique of Honda that they are discontinuing the manual.
They operate in a competitive marketplace and the competition has moved away from traditional clutch/gearbox/shifter configurations into the newer form of clutch/gearbox/solenoid drivelines.

In the market segment involving high performance hybrid drivelines (918,P1,La Ferrari) the benchmark is a DCT configuration.
As the new NSX is positioned in this segment Honda has little choice but to offer a similar setup.
With the new NSX, performance data will be mercilessly compared to the above hybrids and also non hybrids (458, 458 turbo?, GT3, 911 turbo, GTR).
Acceleration, track times, and to a lesser extent emissions will all be discussed/applauded/critiqued by the public and the press.
These performance numbers would all suffer with a traditional manual so I can see why Honda has no choice but to go DCT.
And for a limited volume car like the NSX two transmissions make no sense.

Perhaps this means manuals will only be offered in the lower performance grouping below the above mentioned cars.
It seems anything over 450 hp is DCT and below 450 some manuals are offered.
There may be some engineering reason for this or perhaps the lower performance models (911, 911S etc.) sell in enough volume to warrant the expense of two transmissions.

If the new NSX is the first step in the repositioning of Acura and a simpler, lighter mini-NSX/S2000 is next then perhaps a manual will be offered there.

King, if you were in Ted Klaus' shoes what transmission would you have put in the new NSX?

The new NSX is positioned against the 458, not the 918, P1, and LaFerrari. It is comparable to the GTR(only in paddles), 458(only in paddles), and the GT3(only in paddles). In that sense your argument is valid. Still, there's a group that would love the GT3 and the 458 in a manual although that will never be it seems.

 

[JD Cross]

I never said America is the only reason. Right off the top of my head I can think about the BMW M5 saloon being an auto everywhere but in America. I think about the Jeep, Cadillac, Viper, Corvette, etc. all coming with manuals still, and in large quantities.

Nissan frontiers comes 6 speed(I have one), Tacomas here comes manual. Dodge Rams and Chevy Silverados still come manuals. Manual trucks are definitely not dead in America. My first truck had a column shifter with a V8 that I drove in traffic to get to school. I love manuals, but I don't have arthritis/joint pain in my legs, luckily. I have back pain at times from a lifting injury.

The BMW 5 series is offered with a 6 speed manual globally not just in the US.
All Silverado light trucks only come with automatics.
A few other light truck models, Ram 2500 and Toyota SRD are available with a manual as an option.
I believe Jeep manuals are only available in the Wrangler.

When you mention Cadillac let's keep in mind that Subaru sells more vehicles than Cadillac.
I'd guess the number of manual Cadillac's would be small.

So while manuals in America are not extinct they are certainly on the endangered list.
So I don`t believe you are quite right when you say manuals are sold in large quantities.

If you have data that shows otherwise I`d stand corrected.

 

[The King]

I'm not denying that the DCT is the obvious choice for the new NSX. I am just growing tired of some members on here that are hell bent trying to convince me that I have some fatal flaw because I like manual sports cars. Can't wait to see what a new battery will be worth for the NSX. It's bad enough for a Civic hybrid. Better get the extended warranty on that new one JD Cross! I have a friend that is supposed to be getting the new one. I'll have to be convinced. I'm sure I'll be impressed, but probably not enough to get one, at least until I'm so old that I'll have to drive an automatic.

 

[JD Cross]

I'm not denying that the DCT is the obvious choice for the new NSX. I am just growing tired of some members on here that are hell bent trying to convince me that I have some fatal flaw because I like manual sports cars. Can't wait to see what a new battery will be worth for the NSX. It's bad enough for a Civic hybrid. Better get the extended warranty on that new one JD Cross! I have a friend that is supposed to be getting the new one. I'll have to be convinced. I'm sure I'll be impressed, but probably not enough to get one, at least until I'm so old that I'll have to drive an automatic.

I agree manuals have their place and do hope they survive in the future

On the NSX I'll get the extended warranty (good idea), expect to enjoy the DCT experience, and I believe I'm too old to worry about battery life. :smile:

 

[scammy]

Perhaps this means manuals will only be offered in the lower performance grouping below the above mentioned cars.
It seems anything over 450 hp is DCT and below 450 some manuals are offered.
There may be some engineering reason for this or perhaps the lower performance models (911, 911S etc.) sell in enough volume to warrant the expense of two transmissions.

If the new NSX is the first step in the repositioning of Acura and a simpler, lighter mini-NSX/S2000 is next then perhaps a manual will be offered there.

The new Civic Type R is coming with a 6 speed manual and Honda has described it as their fastest ever production car.
Your whole statement is pretty much spot on the NSX is a showcase of what they can do

 

[JD Cross]

The new NSX is positioned against the 458, not the 918, P1, and LaFerrari. It is comparable to the GTR(only in paddles), 458(only in paddles), and the GT3(only in paddles). In that sense your argument is valid. Still, there's a group that would love the GT3 and the 458 in a manual although that will never be it seems.

You are correct.
I should have said the NSX will get compared to the high performance hybrid group because of the driveline, but is positioned against the GTR, 458 (and turbo successor) and GT3.

 

[jones83]

The BMW 5 series is offered with a 6 speed manual globally not just in the US.
All Silverado light trucks only come with automatics.
A few other light truck models, Ram 2500 and Toyota SRD are available with a manual as an option.
I believe Jeep manuals are only available in the Wrangler.

When you mention Cadillac let's keep in mind that Subaru sells more vehicles than Cadillac.
I'd guess the number of manual Cadillac's would be small.

So while manuals in America are not extinct they are certainly on the endangered list.
So I don`t believe you are quite right when you say manuals are sold in large quantities.

If you have data that shows otherwise I`d stand corrected.

The BMW M5 is available with a manual transmission only in the U.S., and only then because frustrated customers complained about the standard dual-clutch.

Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/2014-bmw-m6-to-offer-manual-transmission-345807.html#ixzz3OHwLCAFN

Also the Colorado 2015 comes with a 6 speed. Silverados are not known as light trucks. They are full size trucks, and I believe as a special option you can still get in manual. Jeep has the wrangler, renegade, and liberty that all come in manuals.

61% of sales in Cadillac are new buyers and sales overall is up 12%. The 2016 CTS-V is ditching manuals because they will be offered in the ATS-V.

Manuals are not endangered. They just aren't as widely used as they used to be. Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, Jeep, Cadillac, etc all have manual options for more than one vehicle.

 

[JD Cross]

Also the Colorado 2015 comes with a 6 speed. Silverados are not known as light trucks. They are full size trucks, and I believe as a special option you can still get in manual. Jeep has the wrangler, renegade, and liberty that all come in manuals.

61% of sales in Cadillac are new buyers and sales overall is up 12%. The 2016 CTS-V is ditching manuals because they will be offered in the ATS-V.

Manuals are not endangered. They just aren't as widely used as they used to be. Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, Jeep, Cadillac, etc all have manual options for more than one vehicle.

A check of the BMW website in the UK shows the 5 series available so Motortrend is wrong.

Silverado's and Sieera's have always been known as light duty trucks as opposed to medium and heavy duty.
This is common knowledge.
http://www.gmc.com/sierra-trucks/light-duty-pickups.html

Cadillac sales are not up they're down
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/12/cadillac-sales-flux-still-puzzling/

I think this sums it up
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/09/11/manual-transmissions-getting-rarer-in-us/

 

[jones83]

It may have changed for this year, but everyone from motortrend to car and driver to actual UK people like Chris Harris have said it wasn't an option in the UK.

If the Sierra/Silverado is light duty then what is the Colorado? Featherweight duty? lol We both know they aren't made to be light weight trucks. They are long, heavy as hell, and 1/2-3/4 ton trucks. Call it what you will.

I just read that their numbers were up. That is odd.

Give me anyone else other than fox news. lol Still for being close to extinct it doesn't add up when every manufacture has at least two vehicles that have manual options. I'm not saying they are as plentiful as they always have been, but extinct is definitely an extreme word to use.

 

[fastaussie]

perfectly summed up here:

Two years ago, Chrysler was burned when it assumed there would be higher demand for manual transmissions in its Dodge Dart compact car. The car sold slowly. This year, when Fiat Chrysler's Alfa Romeo 4C sports car arrives in the U.S., it won't offer a manual transmission. When a manual enthusiast questioned that decision at a company event in May, Fiat Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne said U.S. demand for manuals is simply too limited.

"It's going to be you and four guys. That's my assessment of our market demand," he said.

 

[N Spec]

I find it interesting that it's a 5 percenter situation, but there is so much fuss about it phasing away among car enthusiasts. I think it just shows the disconnect between people's perception and the math of reality.