Car & Driver on the new Subara WRX

[paulviriyapan]

Check out this month's Car and Driver where they run a comparison of the new Subara Impreza WRX versus the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. Now what really concerns me is they manage to pull a 0-60 time of 4.6 seconds for the Subara, which is near the damn Corvette ZO6 range. Are they sh**ing me, or is this ugly little beast that fast? Don't get me wrong, I actually think both the WRX and the Lancer Evolution are cool cars (though the Subaru is still ugly ). Now the fastest time I have ever seen reported for a stock NSX in a car mag is 4.8 seconds 0-60 for the Zanardi edition. So, if I am not mistaken, if I pull up to one of these things at a stop light, it could make me look real bad (yet another reason not to street race, eh?)

Am I missing something, or are these things actually that fast. Or are Car and Driver's times a bit more 'optimistic'? I just gotta know. Thanks.

 

[brahtw8]

I didn't see the Car and Driver article, but 4.6 is what Subaru claims for the STi. They may have been quoting the manufacturer, or they really did get 4.6. Autoweek got 4.78 for the STi with a 13.36 quarter (including a shift into fifth!), and 5.19 with a 14 quarter for the Evo.

These cars appear to be the real deal. Autoweek got an EVO to stop from 60 in 100 feet, best they had ever tested. Both cars were equally impressive through the slalom.

However, they are geared quite short, the Subaru needs a 2-3 shift to hit 60 (and still does it in 4.78 ).

I just got my NSX a week ago. I could have bought an EVO or an STi. I am happy with the NSX. YMMV

 

[mlambert890]

The short answer is that, against an EVO VIII or STi, it's all coming down to the driver. And yes, that sucks, and yes, it's depressing and yes, it's even worse that a 10 million pound Mercedes CL55 AMG will smoke all of the above with an automatic tranny.

Sports cars that actually look like sports cars, are less than 100 grand, and have a comfortable performance lead on these fast, and generally ugly or boring sedans, appear to be solely represented by the SRT-10 I guess.

It could be worse... You could be the proud owner of a Nissan 350Z, Honda S2000, Mazda RX-8 or Porsche Boxster and be getting smoked by a Volvo.

I think what we're witnessing (scary) is the death of the traditional sports car. Technology has advanced to the point where the far more popular 4 door form factor can be made to perform every bit as well as a sexy, low slung, two door wedge. Since a big majority of buyers would line up for a rocket ship 4 door sedan, and the impractical traditional sports car format is always niche, the writing is on the wall.

 

[burbel]

Actually, I would say that we are entering a great phase for automotive engineering - the performance values across the board are climbing, and I always see that as a good thing. However, if high technology is applied to a sports car, that car will easily outperform a 3800lb. 4-door.

The problem is that technology is continuing to increase, performance is continuing to increase, and as the NSX gets older and older, it's once quite impressive performance is getting matched or exceeded by recent cars. Personally, I still think that the *combination* that is the NSX is the best car for me, but there are other cars out there now that will outperform it.

And, yes, 0-60, the Subaru's are very fast.

 

[Dan H]

AWD gives them the impressive 0-60 times since they have so much traction off the line. Great cars for their money. I'd still pick an NSX though for other reasons.

 

[blurr]

My roommate has an EVO VIII. It is extremely quick.

Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, the argument of the past that all these cars coming out that could out accelerate the NSX could not turn a lap at the track with the NSX are no longer true. Look at the numbers for the EVO. It accelerates with the NSX, handles with the NSX, and out brakes the NSX.

I am seriously considering grabbing an EVO for track days. It's way cheaper to fix if it breaks.

-matt

 

[NetViper]

In the past I said the new NSX should outperform a 360 ferrari.... now i am just hoping the new car (if it ever comes), will outperform a SUBARU!!!

 

[Gokwi]

yes yes, i know evo 8 much cheaper, to fix, upgrade..

here is a solution for you to OWN a evo 8, and leave it in the dust..

by a nice set of brembo brakes like the evo, and add on a s/c or turbo, and that will make a big difference..

and its round $6-$8k

 

[NetViper]

yes yes, i know evo 8 much cheaper, to fix, upgrade..

here is a solution for you to OWN a evo 8, and leave it in the dust..

by a nice set of brembo brakes like the evo, and add on a s/c or turbo, and that will make a big difference..

and its round $6-$8k

The brembo brakes alone would be ~$3,000 and the SC is another $8. plus install... you are looking at more like $14K in UPGRADES to beat a car that only costs $30,000.

 

[8000RPM]

Technology has advanced to the point where the far more popular 4 door form factor can be made to perform every bit as well as a sexy, low slung, two door wedge.

The world around us has changed but unfortunately our beloved NSX hasn't.

Since Honda won't do it for us, we have no choice but to upgrade the cars ourselves just to keep pace.

All I can say is thank goodness for all the various vendors developing forced induction solutions...!!!

 

[Ponyboy]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

But, I'll try: Mod the hell out of it and quit your whining.

Competition is good.

 

[Gokwi]

The brembo brakes alone would be ~$3,000 and the SC is another $8. plus install... you are looking at more like $14K in UPGRADES to beat a car that only costs $30,000.

i was lookin like turbo kit $5k or BBSC $6k, and brembo $3k

 

[Xcite50]

Common you guys, if you're all so afraid of getting smoked by a cheaper car then trade all your NSX's in and get the WRX STI. We all know that if you force enough air into a car, it will go fast... but what about reliability???. For a 2.4L 4 cylinder to pump out 300 hp and 300 tq, what kind of air is pushing in there???. This is the same reason why Camero Z28, and Formula WS6 cost $30k to $35k and yet still hang in there with our beloved NSX, but they will have a lot of headaches when things start to break down at around 50k miles also. Those things will suck money out of you till you get sick and sell it for around $5k a few years down the road. At the end I still own an NSX, and you own a car. So be content with what you have, and if you have a big ego, pay $6k to force some air into your NSX and the case will be closed. I know I will do that if I want to look good smoking people.

Good day all

 

[Dan H]

Subaru makes reliable engines. The LS1 engines are pretty reliable now too and make good power. Nothing really matches the Honda quality though and you pay the price for it. For others who can't afford the quality, or would like something that performs well without emptying the wallet too much, the Subaru fits nicely.

 

[Black&Tan97Tnewportbeach]

Chicks (with teeth) don't line up for a ride in a subaru.

 

[MvM]

The sad but true fact is indeed that there are now many cars that will hang out or even outperform the NSX. Personally, I don't care much about 0-60 times. Noone ever stops at 60, you just push on until you run out of road and that's where even a stock NSX will still outperform any Subaru or Evo. 0-60 times they might be quicker but around 100 mph even an 12-year old stock NSX will pull away from a Subaru. That is, when they haven't modded it of course, otherwise you're in for a tough fight.

Ever since I own a NSX I have known there are cars that are quicker of maybe even better. BMW E46 M4, M5, the current Porsche 911, GT2 & GT3, the Turbo, the 360 Modena etc. Of course, spending enough to get the NSX supercharged will even that again but even then, there will always be somebody who will be faster. I don't really care, it's enough for me being faster thatn 98% of the cars I see in the street.

 

[nsxtasy]

I think it's a good thing for everyone when new choices come onto the car market. The more, the merrier.

I think that these cars (the WRXSTIABCDEFG and the Evolution-don't-call-me-Evo) are fine cars for the money. There are quite a few nice choices these days in the $28-35K range.

I don't think these cars will "smoke" an NSX. 1/4 mile times of 13.3 are similar to a '97+ NSX-T. It will come down to the driver, not the car, because the cars are fairly evenly matched.

I think that anyone who is concerned only about getting smoked and smoking other cars should get a 996TT.

I think that anyone who is concerned only about getting smoked by a car that costs less than his should get ride of the NSX and get a Viper (if you want a car in the $80K range), a Z06 ($50K range), a WRXSTIABCDEFG ($30K range), or a Neon SRT-4 ($20K range). That way, anyone smoking you will have paid more money to do so.

Note that this means you will risk getting "smoked" by a less expensive car if you have an NSX, a 911 Carrera, a base-model Corvette, a 350Z, an M5, an M3, or many other fine cars. Does this mean that none of these cars are worth owning? Maybe - but only if all you care about is whether there is something less expensive and faster than your own car.

I think that there are lots of qualities that make the NSX unique, and different from any of these other cars. Get behind the wheel and drive each one and I bet you'll find that none of them feel like an NSX from behind the wheel. Try driving all the cars around, buy the one you like the best, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks.

 

[huckster]

well said. Even my volvo s-60 with t-5 engine feels fast. it is really fun to drive--glad it is my daily driver. Not an nsx experience for me. Havent driven the sub, but cant imagine it would replace the nsx. The z-06 is as fast or faster, and i definately prefer the nsx.

for me, at some point the art becomes important outside of the performance--the nsx has high standards in both areas.

For this reason i also dont think that sedans will replace sports cars---no matter how well the sedans perform. BMW carved out this segment years ago, and i still wanted a nsx over a m-5 or m-3. IMO there is analogy between cars and people; there have been a number of people throughout my life who i thoroughly enjoyed but they werent necessarily the highest performance---i liked them for a multitude of reasons many of which transcended description.

 

[Jonathan]

A friend of mine is a big Subaru nut, and we recently went and drove the WRX (not STi, mind you, but even still rated quite well in 0-60, et al).

At no point during my time in this car did I feel like the NSX was inferior in any way.

Perhaps there was a notion that someone had gone and plunked a decent engine into a Kia to make it faster, but that's sure what it felt like. It felt like a $9,000 car with a $20,000 engine in it. I was very unimpressed.

When it was my turn to drive it, nothing felt good (except maybe the Momo steering wheel, which was kind of cool). If by chance someone was able to drive this car faster than my NSX, so be it. I see that as no difference than a motorcycle kicking my ass at a stop light, just not my bag. You couldn't pay me to own a WRX, it felt cheap, it looked even cheaper (and wicked ugly).

I once read an article where Ford plopped a Taurus SHO engine into the Festiva, and it pulled 0-60 in 3.x seconds, to me this was about how exciting the WRX felt, a cheap car with a decent engine does make not for a nice car.

 

[paulviriyapan]

Well, some good replies here. Let me add this to the mix, I really don't think pure raw speed is the end all or be all, and I wouldn't trade the NSX for any other car, 'cept maybe a 360 Modena if it were the same price . Anyways, I am a recent owner (going on nearly two months) and I did shop around for other cars. But they NSX was the only car that I truly fell in love with. The way I explained it to a whole lot of people who were wondering why the hell I spent so much money on a 12 year old car, that can only carry one other person and maybe a duffle bag, is that the NSX was the only car I drove that I would wake up in the morning and actually look forward to driving. None of the other cars made me feel that way.

The thing is, anyone on this board who owns an NSX could have easily afforded another car, but still chose the NSX. If I wanted pure blinding speed, I could have gotten a Viper. But the problem is that the interior really is too spartan, and the car ain't that comfortable for me to live with on a daily basis, as the NSX is pretty much my daily driver. Same with the Z06, which I also test drove. Fast? Hell, yes. Comfortable? More so than the Viper. The problem was the fit and finish, 'coz even though it's fast, it's still a Chevy, and the heavy use of cheap plastic in the interior really bugged me.

If I wanted, yes I could have gotten a Subaru or a Lancer, but what would be the point. I ultimately think these cars are pretty much doomed, and won't be around much longer. Yes, there is a niche market out there of people who adore these cars, but ultimately this is not a car that will appeal to the mass market. For the $30k + price, I think that alot of people would be willing to forego the raw speed aspect, and buy something with more 'prestige' value.

I don't want to sound like a snob, but I work pretty hard for my money (I'm a lawyer, and as I am writing this from my office on a Sunday afternoon!), capitalism isn't a bad thing, and I want a car that let's the world know that I have 'made it'. (Damn, that DID sound snobby, huh?) The truth is nobody is going to turn to a Subaru WRX owner and say, "Whooaaa, you drive a Subaru". That is why I think anyone who can spend the money on a WRX or Lancer EVO VIII would probably rather buy something with a little more marquee value. I mean $30k + is pushing BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus territory.

The Mitsu and Lancer appeal to the kids with the civics w/spoilers and loud exhausts. But unfortunately, most can't afford the Subaru (that's why they drive civics ). Someone who CAN afford to blow $30k on a car is probably a little older, a little wiser, and doesn't really care about raw speed over the fact that the seats really cushion their butt. Not to say that there aren't people here he wouldn't buy one, nor to say that either is a crappy car. But, I am talking about generalities among the mass population here, and we all know that anyone who hangs out on this board isn't exactly a representative cross section of the population. But then again, that's my $0.02.

 

[nsxtasy]

this was about how exciting the WRX felt, a cheap car with a decent engine does make not for a nice car.

Well said, Jonathan.

A friend of mine who owns an NSX bought a new WRX a couple of years ago. He had numerous problems with it (things that broke and required repair), and eventually sold it with only 900 miles on it.

In addition to the quality problems, his description of the car was similar to yours - nice engine, but totally inadequate suspension, brakes, etc. It's worth noting that, from what I have read, the new 300-hp WRXSTIABCDEFG has much better suspension and brakes than the 227-hp WRX that has been around for a couple of years, so those comments may or may not apply to the new model.

BTW, I disagree with Paul's prediction of market failure for these new models. I think they will sell quite well - not Civic numbers (300K+ cars per year), but there will be enough folks willing to put $30K on them that they'll meet their makers' expectations.

 

[NoClgDeg]

Motor Trend ripped a 4.59 0-60 for the EVO (nsxtacy) Pretty impressive for a shit box econo sedan.

Ultimate-Racing already has upgrades and videos of the EVO doing 12.57 1/4 miles.

I have driven the EVO on several occasions and this is a boy racer car, not an exotic. It would make a great toy but it is not in the same league as the NSX.

 

[generation2]

I think is time for Honda to put out some NSX-R to the U.S.

Saw this NSX-R on the street in Japan...

 

[nsxtasy]

Motor Trend ripped a 4.59 0-60 for the EVO (nsxtacy) Pretty impressive for a shit box econo sedan.

First of all, there is no car available in the United States called an "Evo".

When Motor Trend tested the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, they got 13.1 for 1/4 mile times.

Funny how people always quote only the one number that supports their point. Let's look the other test numbers for the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution to get a more complete picture:

Car and Driver 0-60 5.0 1/4 13.6
Road & Track 0-60 4.8 1/4 13.4
AutoWeek 0-60 5.2 (1/4 not on their website, I'll list it here when I find my hard copy)

It should be quite obvious from these numbers that a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution is only slightly faster than a '91-94 NSX Coupe, about the same as a '97+ NSX-T, and slower than a '97+ NSX Coupe.

Impressive for a "shitbox"? Sure. Heck, I think a Neon SRT-4 is even more impressive, considering that it costs two thirds the price of the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution.

 

[nsxtasy]

Saw this NSX-R on the street in Japan...

What makes you think it's an NSX-R?

Looks to me like a regular NSX to which he attached a wing he got from one of these: