GM to Ax 30,000 Jobs, Close 12 Facilities

[Pacemaker Kid89]

I just think that this is sad and will not by any means help GM, I think they are going to be suffering for a while now, let alone die soon if people dont start buying their cars and if they dont really improve their R/D and get this whole fuel economy thing really fixed up

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/ap_on_bi_ge/gm

 

[Yellow Rose]

I just think that this is sad and will not by any means help GM.....

Ya think?

I think they are going to be suffering for a while now.....

Ya think?

....let alone die soon if people dont start buying their cars

BS.....there was another BIG 3 with money problems that emerged strong. Care to guess which one?

.....and if they dont really improve their R/D.....

You make me laugh. Improve R-n-D? GM has one of the strongest R-n-D programs on the planet.

.....and get this whole fuel economy thing really fixed up.....

There you go, making me laugh again. How is "this whole fuel economy thing really fixed up" GM's responsibility? Last I checked, it is the federal government's EPA that mandates minimum MPG standards, no?

 

[zahntech]

wonder why they are doing badly? :wink:


gotta love thier R&D dept!

 

[avalon96]

I just think that this is sad and will not by any means help GM.....

Ya think?

I think they are going to be suffering for a while now.....

Ya think?

....let alone die soon if people dont start buying their cars

BS.....there was another BIG 3 with money problems that emerged strong. Care to guess which one?

.....and if they dont really improve their R/D.....

You make me laugh. Improve R-n-D? GM has one of the strongest R-n-D programs on the planet.

.....and get this whole fuel economy thing really fixed up.....

There you go, making me laugh again. How is "this whole fuel economy thing really fixed up" GM's responsibility? Last I checked, it is the federal government's EPA that mandates minimum MPG standards, no?

What crawled up your ass and died?

 

[zahntech]

oh oh here is a good one!....mmmmm ribbed for your pleasure!!

 

[Pacemaker Kid89]

I just think that this is sad and will not by any means help GM.....

Ya think?

I think they are going to be suffering for a while now.....

Ya think?

....let alone die soon if people dont start buying their cars

BS.....there was another BIG 3 with money problems that emerged strong. Care to guess which one?

.....and if they dont really improve their R/D.....

You make me laugh. Improve R-n-D? GM has one of the strongest R-n-D programs on the planet.

.....and get this whole fuel economy thing really fixed up.....

There you go, making me laugh again. How is "this whole fuel economy thing really fixed up" GM's responsibility? Last I checked, it is the federal government's EPA that mandates minimum MPG standards, no?

LoL I found your little responces quite funny, glad you got a laugh out of it too.

 

[blknsxnoc]

wonder why they are doing badly? :wink:


gotta love thier R&D dept!

oh oh here is a good one!....ribbed for your pleasure!!

Amen brother..

 

[chumch]

Actually, I think the shrinking of the company WILL help them i.e. Loose some of the fat that keeps them from perhaps taking some chances in the marketplace as well as narrowing down their operations to their strengths the way Jack Welch did with GE.

 

[4AU4LIFE]

oh oh here is a good one!....mmmmm ribbed for your pleasure!!

LMAO !!

 

[comquat1]

GM brought this upon themselves. Their problem unfortunately is the union. I have never been a fan of the union simply because it's thinking doesn't include working smarter.

Case in point. I sell cleaning supplies, I landed a Delphi plant 5-6 years ago, they wouldn't let ME hang up a chemical dilution machine inside the factory because it was looked at as taking work away from the workers. This was/is something that I do for free for any customer who buys from me, but they would rather pay the maintenance dept. big bucks to do it. How ass backwards is that thinking? They're getting their just rewards for this.

 

[zahntech]

The mentality of the antiquated US labor union is going to put many businesses under in the next 20 years.

I interviewed with Saturn but I turned down their offer because even though they were a union labor company the benefits were very poor and the pay was also poor....after looking at the figures I found that the service dept. in that saturn dealer was not as profitable as non union shops and therefore could not pay top rates due to paying substandard employees a "living wage" as per union regulations.

 

[TC]

GM brought this upon themselves. Their problem unfortunately is the union. I have never been a fan of the union simply because it's thinking doesn't include working smarter.

My father was a UAW employee at GM for 25 years - and from the time I was about 8 years old, I knew that the union system would wreck GM.

My father worked rotating shifts - one week from mid-night to 8 am, and the next week from 8 to 4. The stories he told me - especially the night shift when there was less management supervision. One guy on the night shift would turn down the heat treating oven from 1500 degrees to 400 degrees so he could roast chicken, hot dogs, polish sausage, etc. He actually just cooked and sold food all night - didn't do anything else. Again, as an 8 year old, I asked my dad why he didn't get fired. GM tried many times - the union made it very difficult to fire anyone for cause. The resolution was that the guy was allowed to fire up a second oven (we're talking an enormous machine) for cooking purposes. Unbelievable. If you've ever got into a new GM car and thought you smelled chicken or Arby's, now you know.

My father was a tool maker - his boss (a union guy as well) directed him to make a log splitter for him. You had to see this thing - all stainless, super high quality hydraulics, etc. Imagine if you asked a shop like Comptech to build a spare-no-expense log splitter - that's what this thing was. I asked my dad - ".. how did you get this thing out of the plant?" His boss - who came to our house to pick it up - signed the property pass. Everyone knew but there was no way for GM to fire just about anyone from the union.

During the night shift the workers would misalign the robots so the morning shift would have a high part defect rate - which allowed the union to claim that the robots were not as good as union workers. The resolution with management was a fixed limit on the number of robots - regardless of quality or efficiency. So if the plant wanted/needed a new robot somewhere, one would have to come out first.

My brother got a summer job at my father's plant - sweeping up, loading parts into bins, etc. He was forced to join the UAW in order to take the job. He made about $100 per week (take home) - union dues were $12 per week.

My father is a great machinist and a responsible guy, but even he subcumbed to the union mentality. Because of collective bargaining, every employee (in each skill area) earned exactly the same amount - there was no such thing as merit pay. The only way you earned more than your co-worker was based totally on seniority. So my father became one of the masses "doing time" to get ahead. It gained you nothing to work harder, better or smarter than the next guy, so no one did.

I have dozens of stories - perhaps I'll post more tomorrow.

 

[kenjiMR]

My father was a UAW employee at GM for 25 years - and from the time I was about 8 years old, I knew that the union system would wreck GM.

My father worked rotating shifts - one week from mid-night to 8 am, and the next week from 8 to 4. The stories he told me - especially the night shift when there was less management supervision. One guy on the night shift would turn down the heat treating oven from 1500 degrees to 400 degrees so he could roast chicken, hot dogs, polish sausage, etc. He actually just cooked and sold food all night - didn't do anything else. Again, as an 8 year old, I asked my dad why he didn't get fired. GM tried many times - the union made it very difficult to fire anyone for cause. The resolution was that the guy was allowed to fire up a second oven (we're talking an enormous machine) for cooking purposes. Unbelievable. If you've ever got into a new GM car and thought you smelled chicken or Arby's, now you know.

My father was a tool maker - his boss (a union guy as well) directed him to make a log splitter for him. You had to see this thing - all stainless, super high quality hydraulics, etc. Imagine if you asked a shop like Comptech to build a spare-no-expense log splitter - that's what this thing was. I asked my dad - ".. how did you get this thing out of the plant?" His boss - who came to our house to pick it up - signed the property pass. Everyone knew but there was no way for GM to fire just about anyone from the union.

During the night shift the workers would misalign the robots so the morning shift would have a high part defect rate - which allowed the union to claim that the robots were not as good as union workers. The resolution with management was a fixed limit on the number of robots - regardless of quality or efficiency. So if the plant wanted/needed a new robot somewhere, one would have to come out first.

My brother got a summer job at my father's plant - sweeping up, loading parts into bins, etc. He was forced to join the UAW in order to take the job. He made about $100 per week (take home) - union dues were $12 per week.

My father is a great machinist and a responsible guy, but even he subcumbed to the union mentality. Because of collective bargaining, every employee (in each skill area) earned exactly the same amount - there was no such thing as merit pay. The only way you earned more than your co-worker was based totally on seniority. So my father became one of the masses "doing time" to get ahead. It gained you nothing to work harder, better or smarter than the next guy, so no one did.

I have dozens of stories - perhaps I'll post more tomorrow.

Wow. just wow.

 

[queenlives]

clearly it's not gm's responsibility to "fix" the fuel economy issue; it's up to each of us on an individual level to use less when possible. there are *many* reasons why gm is where they are - i'm not an auto industry expert, simply a consumer - but my bet is vehicle design, quality, safety, tco and unbelievably dense union thinking has gotten them where they are... and it'll get a lot worse before it gets better. the pisser? to me, when gm files bk the rest of us will end up eating some of their bloated lifer-pension promises.

it's natural selection at work.

 

[ZR-1 NSX]

TC is absolutely correct in his post above. I am a Journeyman Tool & Die maker who served a apprenticeship in a medium size non union job-shop. After working there for 10 years, I got burned out from working 58-72 hours a week and needed a change. I went to work for a CNC Milling Machine builder as a Applications Engineer and spent a lot of time in GM plants all across the country training new customers about our products. The mentality of the union work force at every plant I went to sucked. The guys who were over 45 in almost every case absolutely wanted nothing to do with any new technology that would require them to learn something new. They were only interested in the next break, and watching anyone else who might be violating any "union protocol", as well as early retirement. I was offered positions within GM on multiple occasions due to my involvement with the CNC training that I had supplied but could never imagine working in that type of environment. Of course it was always a very difficult decision to look away from the very high wage that the union employees make. My best friend is a area manager in a GM transmission plant and nothing has change in the area of union mentality. They will bargain themselves right into the unemployment line in the not to distant future. The people making $28 per hour to tighten a bolt with a torque wrench and then complaining about how unfairly they are treated just blows my mind. A well trained monkey could do many of the jobs for just a couple of bananas a day. I had never owned a foreign car untill the NSX because deep inside I have always wanted to support the American work force, but in my opinion, the Japanese car was the best thing that ever happened to the US car market. It forced people to realize that others could build a equal or better car for less money. Unfortunately, the UAW members still don't believe it. In the 80's, there was a bumper sticker that said "Buy a foreign car, Put another American auto work out of a job". I always laugh when I think how they think it is their right to make big bucks doing basic jobs.

I certainly don't want to catogorize all union laborers as having this mentality, and don't mean to stir any bad feelings among those on this board who might be UAW workers, but these folks really need to understand that there are many people in the US who make far far less money doing the same type of work.

 

[TC]

I certainly don't want to catogorize all union laborers as having this mentality, and don't mean to stir any bad feelings among those on this board who might be UAW workers, but these folks really need to understand that there are many people in the US who make far far less money doing the same type of work.

I agree - it isn't the workers as much as the system - no pay for performance, job protection for the incompetent and dishonest, holding back technology in the name of protecting jobs, collective bargaining, etc.

 

[zahntech]

When I was sitting in my interview with Saturn I was shocked and amazed that if I went to work there I would be paid less than another guy that had less experience and fewer certifications just because he had been there for 3 years .....It amazed me that anyone would/could run a business that way. :frown:

 

[Ko-nsx]

Im an welder repairman(electrician) in the st.louis plant. I worked in construction(ibew) as an electrician also. i agree with the bad apples in a bunch statement(refering to union members, but my opinions differs from "someone being overpaid." I'm not a BIG debater and i have my own reasoning for things, but cooking hot dogs has nothing to do with GM going down. Most people think that union workers are over paid, under trained and will bring any company down. I believe in the old ways of the unions(used to protect workers from getting the shaft), but i also agree the they protect members that worthy AND un-worthy. Its just like anything else.

GM hasn't made a decent car in a number of years. The Aztek, grand-ams and some other butt-ugly ass cars only sold because they were cheap and union employees supported them(green sheets). Also rental agency's helped. But honest saturns and some of the other models are not, uh, cool.
Chrysler got raped by Mercedes(daimler)(and layed off a ton of people) but the chrysler div turned out some impressive cars in the last 5 years(starting with the PT cruiser) and sales went up. The are some bad union people, just like anything else and there some honest people who want to work and earn their living. I SERIOUSLY doubt just because skilled trades or a few other workers doing some bad things made GM plummit. If you think UAW workers are over paid try not to look into any other aspects of the automotive industry.

I don't want to take sides(nothing i can do anyway, just enjoy life as much as possible)but the higher ups need to be held accountable for their actions as well. Just think what would have happened if we hadn't found those WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. :biggrin: to each his own, my .02

 

[Ko-nsx]

I certainly don't want to catogorize all union laborers as having this mentality, and don't mean to stir any bad feelings among those on this board who might be UAW workers, but these folks really need to understand that there are many people in the US who make far far less money doing the same type of work.


Have you ever worked on an assembly line at a car plant? Who wants to do the same thing repetitively, get carpel tunnel, can't use you hands and have no benefits? With the amount of physical work involved in a lot of "union or non-union" jobs i think most of us would have to go for the employer with the best benefits. At least most of the workers i work with at union employers, work there primarily because of the benefits.

 

[Ko-nsx]

GM brought this upon themselves. Their problem unfortunately is the union. I have never been a fan of the union simply because it's thinking doesn't include working smarter.

Case in point. I sell cleaning supplies, I landed a Delphi plant 5-6 years ago, they wouldn't let ME hang up a chemical dilution machine inside the factory because it was looked at as taking work away from the workers. This was/is something that I do for free for any customer who buys from me, but they would rather pay the maintenance dept. big bucks to do it. How ass backwards is that thinking? They're getting their just rewards for this.

Hope they don't get TP cheaper anywhere else. :smile: You got your money so what?

 

[Yellow Rose]

What crawled up your ass and died?

Unions.....I can accommodate several - auto workers, electricians, masons, the list is quite impressive. Even includes folk from Hollywood and Washington.

But hey, if the person (Kid 89) my post was directed towards did not insult him, there is no need for you to question my posterior anatomy, ok?

 

[Ennesssex]

Hope they don't get TP cheaper anywhere else. :smile: You got your money so what?

Point being, GM had an opportunity to reduce/eliminate a cost but instead chose to incur an expense. Losing money?.......I wonder why?

 

[zahntech]

cooking hot dogs has nothing to do with GM going down. Most people think that union workers are over paid, under trained and will bring any company down.

I doubt that if you owned a machine shop and you came in on the night shift making hot dogs in your 100k piece of equipment rather than doing their work you would have the same opinion.

 

[White92]

Do the workers at the U.S. "foreign" plants work for the UAW? Or is it just a GM thing? ie: are the workers in the Honda plants that are in the U.S. part of a union?

 

[TC]

...but cooking hot dogs has nothing to do with GM going down. Most people think that union workers are over paid, under trained and will bring any company down.

GM hasn't made a decent car in a number of years.

Chrysler got raped by Mercedes(daimler)(and layed off a ton of people) but the chrysler div turned out some impressive cars in the last 5 years(starting with the PT cruiser) and sales went up.

I agree with you that auto workers aren't overpaid - I never suggested that in my posts. It is hard, hot, loud and tedious work and Big 3 union pay is actually less than their counterparts at Honda America when you factor in the holiday bonus (which is usually $3-5k at Honda and $200 at GM).

Training, on the other hand, IMO is a weakness of the union system. My father paid union dues for 30 years and the union provided little training. He went to community college on his own to learn CNC machining. Unions should be at the forefront of improving worker skills, not holding them back. But the UAW union contract has strict limits on the amount of manufacturing automation that GM can use. And if you work for GM I'm sure you know of the infamous "Job Bank" agreement where laid-off employees still receive 95% of their pay for not working. GM has over 5,000 such Job Bank employees.

Put it all together - limits on automation, pay for unneeded workers, a pay system to promotes medicrity, tolerance of underperformers - and it's no wonder that GM doesn't have the ability to build good cars. As you pointed out, DCX began producing good cars after they restructured the workforce.

Also, many of my father's co-workers from GM now work for Honda, Nissan and Toyota (US manufacturing) - and these plants have consistently rebuffed attempts to unionize them. It's interesting to me that former UAW employees don't want the UAW at their new company.

FWIW.