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Is War Worth it!?
- Thread starter Electro
- Start date
From what you have posted so far, Electro, you fit this profile. You claimed to have paid tax but you are clearly anti-American and yet enjoying the security under the wings of the American Eagle. You probably went to college but did not get a real education, at least not enough to become analytical or even reasonable. You thoughts are scattered and tangential. Millions of people would kill for the opportunity to pay American tax to be able to live in this country. The country will probably survive without your share of the tax money which you think entitles you to disrespect the USA. I bet you don't claim to be an American but present yourself as a member of your ethnicity, such as Palestinian, Chinese, French, African and so on. Also, the fact that you are so anti-American is because the USA has done something BAD to YOUR country, right? No one on this forum has ever said this is a perfect country. This country has numerous flaws and they need to be addressed and fixed. You seem to spend a lot of your energy condemning this country despite all the good deeds this USA has done for you. You think you PAID for all these excellent services such as your education, security, living standard and all that because you pay tax, right? I think this country totally sucks on educating our people to appreciate what an American has that others don't have. We suck on educating our people to respect and cherish what our forefathers have done for us.Electro said:
In fact, people on this forum have shown exceptional class and grace towards your pointless
rambling. Low class?
Steve
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one last try. let me paint you an analogy.
this area of the world is composed of 'tribes' whose histories go back centuries. The tribal mindset makes it hard to get along with neighboring nations who are a completely different tribe than you. Even within your own nation, you have tribes who are from a different culture/ethnic background than the ruling regime.
As a ruler in this region, he had dissent within his own country. As a ruler, he systematically executed those who opposed him. He actually targeted specific groups/tribes to eliminate. His willingness to attack other countries within this region led to a larger and larger war. What started out as localized conflict soon engulfed the world. Had he been checked and eliminated from power before 1938 several million people would have been saved.
There is always a common theme among human history. Some countries are ruled with concern for the human race, and some are concerned with ruling the human race. I personally have always seen U.S. policy of the past hundred plus years as ruling with concern. How we treat our own citizens is a best indicator of motive in my opinion. U.S. policy has been far from perfect, but this government based on democratic principles has treated its own citizens far better than most nations in human history. Only you can decide what you think of our nation, of the freedoms you enjoy, and of the overall treatment of you by our government.
As for Saddam, he executed his own citizens, he executed citizens of countries he attacked, and he executed prisoners of war in one of the bloodiest conflicts of the past 50 years(Iran-Iraq war). If you know anything about the Iran-Iraq war, the disregard of rules of warfare and the treatment of combatants was unparalled. You should note that even Hitler didnt condone execution of prisoners of war, and held concern for his own troops welfare. In the war with Iran, Saddam also used weapons of mass destruction(chem/bio warfare), which often killed his own troops as well.
The point is, you can have a 'who gives a *&%*' non-interventionist attitude towards other areas of the world, but sooner or later over-reaching sadistic dictators will affect you too. Waiting till they develop the ability and power to hurt you is not only an inhumane disregard for your fellowman, but it is also foolish.
Admittedly, telling the good guy from bad has always been the difficult part. I think the U.S. track record is far from perfect but far above any nation of this size in the history of humankind. Likewise, I think Saddam's dictatorship within Iraq has a track record identical to every evil regime in human history.
Only you can decide what you think. But the facts are pretty overwhelming.
this area of the world is composed of 'tribes' whose histories go back centuries. The tribal mindset makes it hard to get along with neighboring nations who are a completely different tribe than you. Even within your own nation, you have tribes who are from a different culture/ethnic background than the ruling regime.
As a ruler in this region, he had dissent within his own country. As a ruler, he systematically executed those who opposed him. He actually targeted specific groups/tribes to eliminate. His willingness to attack other countries within this region led to a larger and larger war. What started out as localized conflict soon engulfed the world. Had he been checked and eliminated from power before 1938 several million people would have been saved.
There is always a common theme among human history. Some countries are ruled with concern for the human race, and some are concerned with ruling the human race. I personally have always seen U.S. policy of the past hundred plus years as ruling with concern. How we treat our own citizens is a best indicator of motive in my opinion. U.S. policy has been far from perfect, but this government based on democratic principles has treated its own citizens far better than most nations in human history. Only you can decide what you think of our nation, of the freedoms you enjoy, and of the overall treatment of you by our government.
As for Saddam, he executed his own citizens, he executed citizens of countries he attacked, and he executed prisoners of war in one of the bloodiest conflicts of the past 50 years(Iran-Iraq war). If you know anything about the Iran-Iraq war, the disregard of rules of warfare and the treatment of combatants was unparalled. You should note that even Hitler didnt condone execution of prisoners of war, and held concern for his own troops welfare. In the war with Iran, Saddam also used weapons of mass destruction(chem/bio warfare), which often killed his own troops as well.
The point is, you can have a 'who gives a *&%*' non-interventionist attitude towards other areas of the world, but sooner or later over-reaching sadistic dictators will affect you too. Waiting till they develop the ability and power to hurt you is not only an inhumane disregard for your fellowman, but it is also foolish.
Admittedly, telling the good guy from bad has always been the difficult part. I think the U.S. track record is far from perfect but far above any nation of this size in the history of humankind. Likewise, I think Saddam's dictatorship within Iraq has a track record identical to every evil regime in human history.
Only you can decide what you think. But the facts are pretty overwhelming.
I'd say, "TAKE OUT N. KOREA"... this world is not a place for any form of communism.
whiteNSXs, omg dude... your statements couldn't be further from the truth about who I am. I'm not even going to respond to each of your statements since they're so far off the mark...
No one can judge a person by what they say in a forum.
This is not a thread where people are to be judging others. I thought we cleared (or at least argued) this up about 100 posts back?
"This country has numerous flaws and they need to be addressed and fixed."
This is ALL i'm trying to say ... ALL I want is the US to recognize it's mistakes (just like all countries make - INCLUDING IRAQ)
How does this make me anti-american?
Anyone who disagrees with what our government does is anti-american? How the hell does that make any sense?
I should be able to disagree with who ever I want to ... especially if I'm paying their salary and means to do whatever they want....
I'm NOT saying Saddam shouldn't have been stopped... but did we get the results we wanted? NO. I dont think so. We've only made things worse, just as I thought so in the begining before any of this started...
War is not for economic reasons alone... its for public opinion, which really *does* matter ... even if no one will admit it....
Huster, THANK YOU for your legitimate reply ... instead of continuing immature remarks that only leads to me to give even more confusing banter that leads people to believe I'm anti-american (which like I said couldn't be further from the truth... I love this country, but I dont always agree with what MY Govt is doing as well as other govt's of other countries)
ALL I AM ASKING FOR IS ACCOUNTABILITY FOR OUR OWN ACTIONS! If we demand it from other countries, then why cant we live up to our own requirements of other nations?! Is that too much to ask? I guess it is. And when someone brings this up, they're automatically put into the "anti-American" catagory which is discusting for those that call themselves real americans.
96blknsx, I agree with you. N. Korea is just testing us to see how we react, and to see if we invade their country...
Even though I know it would be against public opinion, I think removing him from power would probably be the best idea b/c I believe N Korea is more dangerous than Saddam (IMO mind you =] ) Saddam never test fired any missles did he? (I may be wrong and yes I know that that's possible in some cases)
I realize there has been war crimes... by N Korea and Iraq...
But consider the fact at how quickly we toppled the Iraqi government... THREE WEEKS.... How do you think that makes North Korea feel? Its no wonder they're continuing their WMD program! North Korea is a country that WILL take the offensive (they've even said so) if more sanctions are imposed... they'll consider it an act of war.... how would u like to have the US bombed w/ a nuke?
This is my whole point .... we're damned if we do, we're told we're damned if we dont...
-Electro
No one can judge a person by what they say in a forum.
This is not a thread where people are to be judging others. I thought we cleared (or at least argued) this up about 100 posts back?
"This country has numerous flaws and they need to be addressed and fixed."
This is ALL i'm trying to say ... ALL I want is the US to recognize it's mistakes (just like all countries make - INCLUDING IRAQ)
How does this make me anti-american?
Anyone who disagrees with what our government does is anti-american? How the hell does that make any sense?
I should be able to disagree with who ever I want to ... especially if I'm paying their salary and means to do whatever they want....
I'm NOT saying Saddam shouldn't have been stopped... but did we get the results we wanted? NO. I dont think so. We've only made things worse, just as I thought so in the begining before any of this started...
War is not for economic reasons alone... its for public opinion, which really *does* matter ... even if no one will admit it....
Huster, THANK YOU for your legitimate reply ... instead of continuing immature remarks that only leads to me to give even more confusing banter that leads people to believe I'm anti-american (which like I said couldn't be further from the truth... I love this country, but I dont always agree with what MY Govt is doing as well as other govt's of other countries)
ALL I AM ASKING FOR IS ACCOUNTABILITY FOR OUR OWN ACTIONS! If we demand it from other countries, then why cant we live up to our own requirements of other nations?! Is that too much to ask? I guess it is. And when someone brings this up, they're automatically put into the "anti-American" catagory which is discusting for those that call themselves real americans.
96blknsx, I agree with you. N. Korea is just testing us to see how we react, and to see if we invade their country...
Even though I know it would be against public opinion, I think removing him from power would probably be the best idea b/c I believe N Korea is more dangerous than Saddam (IMO mind you =] ) Saddam never test fired any missles did he? (I may be wrong and yes I know that that's possible in some cases)
I realize there has been war crimes... by N Korea and Iraq...
But consider the fact at how quickly we toppled the Iraqi government... THREE WEEKS.... How do you think that makes North Korea feel? Its no wonder they're continuing their WMD program! North Korea is a country that WILL take the offensive (they've even said so) if more sanctions are imposed... they'll consider it an act of war.... how would u like to have the US bombed w/ a nuke?
This is my whole point .... we're damned if we do, we're told we're damned if we dont...
-Electro
Saddam is kaput. The Iraq war is won. Sure there's interim confusion.
All in all I think we did a darn good job.
I don't think USA has anything to apologize for.
If anything, we made a BIG BOLD point that if you f*ck with America we're gonna f*ck you back.
This will send a big signal to all terrorists and rogue nations that they better watch their back. We've stated that we are not going to tolerate any more actions that led up to September 11th.
If you don't like it, too da-mn bad...
All in all I think we did a darn good job.
I don't think USA has anything to apologize for.
If anything, we made a BIG BOLD point that if you f*ck with America we're gonna f*ck you back.
This will send a big signal to all terrorists and rogue nations that they better watch their back. We've stated that we are not going to tolerate any more actions that led up to September 11th.
If you don't like it, too da-mn bad...
Electro said:
America's mistake was not taking care of Saddam in Gulf War I in 1991, and letting Osama Bin Laden mess around without any serious attempt to kill the guy.
Now we're rectifying the situation nice.
Your whole point is totally inaccruate and wrong.
Electro said:
true, except that you're wrong, and I'm right.
Mr. Electro, your rambling further confirmed my impression of what you are. You are just totally INCOHERENT? If I cannot judge you by what you say, what do I go by? Your stunning good looks? People are INVARIABLY judged by their behavior, PERIOD! I judge you by what you SAID, what you WROTE, and your everlasting elusive thought process.Electro said:
So long!
Steve
You sure are doing one hell of a job convincing me of just how wrong I am now aren't you....
Guess you haven't been paying much attention.... not that it matters... this thread has become more for entertainment than anything at this point... no one's going to convince you, or anyone else of anything... and visa versa...
I *thought* we could have a real debate here... but I guess I was wrong... how stupid of me to assume that people that can afford nice cars also have the ability to understand someone who doesnt fit the mold that they're always accustomed to when talking to people...
-E
Guess you haven't been paying much attention.... not that it matters... this thread has become more for entertainment than anything at this point... no one's going to convince you, or anyone else of anything... and visa versa...
I *thought* we could have a real debate here... but I guess I was wrong... how stupid of me to assume that people that can afford nice cars also have the ability to understand someone who doesnt fit the mold that they're always accustomed to when talking to people...
-E
now c'mon electro. dont get pouty because some posters get personal and nasty. You asked for a debate, and some debates get heated. Furthermore, you asked for a debate on a war we are involved in, and that is the most heated topic of all--literally life and death/survival. When you question a war where Americans are giving their lives---what do you expect?
Lets recap your position.
You think Saddam is/was bad. But you didnt think it was 'worth' removing him.
You now think that our actions made the situation worse than it was before, and that we are 'damned if we do and damned if we dont'.
My Response:
'war is never worth it' is the argument used ad nauseum, but is inherently flawed. The flip statement of this argument is 'peace at any price'. It means exactly the same thing. War is always horrific, but not always wrong. Would you stand by and watch your neighbors murdered and do nothing? That happened 9/11 to american citizens, and has been happening in Iraq to Iraquis for the past 20plus years. It is morally reprehensible not to act under these circumstances.
Our actions removed a primary instigator of conlict in this region. This may, worst case, lead to additional conflict, which is why, i think, you are stating that the situation is worse than before and we are 'damned if we do and damned if we dont'. I think that is missing the big picture. IMO, we are clearly NOT going to war against Iraq or against a specific country, but against our enemies. There are multiple dictators in this region who are and have commited atrocities and who are/have supporting terrorism against the U.S. As you already stated, 'public opinion' matters, and we are showing the international public that we are prepared to eliminate those who kill American citizens. If other countries choose to harbour terrorism, then we can expect additional conflict. If they dont, then the war is over. The ball is in their court.
A typical response to my argument is 'so we are the policeman of the world'. Obviously we are not, base on all the places we havent gone but surely should have if we were good police. But what if we were? What would be so horrible about all countries having a police force like we enjoy in our country? In the interest of sovereignty, we allow other countries to do what they will to their own people. What some countries do with their own citizens is abhorrent, but we stay uninvolved.
To summarize, I think the war is far from over. We waited until we were attacked to respond, even though we knew this would happen sooner or later. IMO, the 'enemy' is harder to identify this time around as they wear no uniforms, hide behind civilians, and are sheltered by governments who deny and plead ignorance. My prediction is that we will see additional conflict, and that the war in Iraq is the first step in bringing this situation to a head.
The problem with your argument is that you are already a combatant in a war and dont even realize it. You think that you can somehow refuse to be a target or convince your enemy to leave you alone by ignoring or pacifying him. You think that refusing to fight him will somehow protect you. There are numerous examples of how that plays out, and every time throughout history the people who refuse to fight back have become victims.
Lets recap your position.
You think Saddam is/was bad. But you didnt think it was 'worth' removing him.
You now think that our actions made the situation worse than it was before, and that we are 'damned if we do and damned if we dont'.
My Response:
'war is never worth it' is the argument used ad nauseum, but is inherently flawed. The flip statement of this argument is 'peace at any price'. It means exactly the same thing. War is always horrific, but not always wrong. Would you stand by and watch your neighbors murdered and do nothing? That happened 9/11 to american citizens, and has been happening in Iraq to Iraquis for the past 20plus years. It is morally reprehensible not to act under these circumstances.
Our actions removed a primary instigator of conlict in this region. This may, worst case, lead to additional conflict, which is why, i think, you are stating that the situation is worse than before and we are 'damned if we do and damned if we dont'. I think that is missing the big picture. IMO, we are clearly NOT going to war against Iraq or against a specific country, but against our enemies. There are multiple dictators in this region who are and have commited atrocities and who are/have supporting terrorism against the U.S. As you already stated, 'public opinion' matters, and we are showing the international public that we are prepared to eliminate those who kill American citizens. If other countries choose to harbour terrorism, then we can expect additional conflict. If they dont, then the war is over. The ball is in their court.
A typical response to my argument is 'so we are the policeman of the world'. Obviously we are not, base on all the places we havent gone but surely should have if we were good police. But what if we were? What would be so horrible about all countries having a police force like we enjoy in our country? In the interest of sovereignty, we allow other countries to do what they will to their own people. What some countries do with their own citizens is abhorrent, but we stay uninvolved.
To summarize, I think the war is far from over. We waited until we were attacked to respond, even though we knew this would happen sooner or later. IMO, the 'enemy' is harder to identify this time around as they wear no uniforms, hide behind civilians, and are sheltered by governments who deny and plead ignorance. My prediction is that we will see additional conflict, and that the war in Iraq is the first step in bringing this situation to a head.
The problem with your argument is that you are already a combatant in a war and dont even realize it. You think that you can somehow refuse to be a target or convince your enemy to leave you alone by ignoring or pacifying him. You think that refusing to fight him will somehow protect you. There are numerous examples of how that plays out, and every time throughout history the people who refuse to fight back have become victims.
