Is War Worth it!?

[Electro]

Sig, lol very well said...

its tough for anyone in this world to have a solid backing without serious scrutiny.

I dont expect anyone to agree with me. I know that everything I've said in this thread is highly controversial. And thats right, I'm interested to see how people feel about this ...

It's been an interesting discussion... some people cant see my humor... They just get all fussy. but its OK. What other choice do we have? Let's just go ahead and beat the terrorists to the punch and kill each other! That would be fun eh?

I would never claim to be liberal... and definitely not conservative... somewhere in the middle.

-Electro

 

[David]

Originally posted by Electro:
I have yet to see anything brought up by David that holds water regarding what I've been talking about. We all know you're a proud Texan. Show us just how intelligent you are and give me some real hard facts that prove or disprove the evidence that I have presented!

-E

Then you are not paying attention. Try actually reading my posts. Then read your posts. Compare them. Which are based on cogent arguements and which are based on self-serving assumptions and hyperbole?

Except for your foray into name-calling, I don't see this a a personal issue. I love debate. I believe it is the best way to truely examine almost any issue. I am just frustrated by your complete inability to form a cogent arguement supporting any of your points and your incrdibly ill-informed accusations.

So let's break this down:

- The US is "bad" because we fought and won a nuclear war which we did not start.

- We are "bad" becasue we used a defoliant in an effort to lower US casualties in a war against a nation that attacked one of our allies.

- People who don't agree with your are close-minded.

- You ask for proof that a govt. that was caught red-handed trying to assasinate a former president is involved in terrorism.

- You claim the electoral process in a country widely regarded as having the most political freedom does not allow us to choose who goes into office

- You claim the people of Iraq are not responsible for producing chemical weapons, even though they have used them repeatedly.

- You claim the govt. determines what the media says, even though the media is widely acknowledged to be very liberal and the current govt. is conservative

- You claim that the vast majority of the people in the South are incapable of thnking beyond their own existance

- You repeatedly refer to your own opinions and assumptions as "facts"

- Your best supporting reference is a guy who is widely regarded as a laughing stock and you link to quotes from him that are patently false.

- You claim the ramifications of the decision to bomb Japan were not analyzed even though the govt has released MILLIONS of pages of documents that do exactly that

- You claim you have no interest in learning about history or poloiics, then prove it by citing historical events wildly incorrectly or out of context. And then get upset when we don't give serious merit to your opinions on the subject you just told us you don't care enough about to study

- You claim you want open-mindedness, but buttress your arguement with name-calling and refuse to acknowledge the validity of the positons of others

- You base many of your arguements on some sort of moral superiority, then claim we should murder captured prisoners

- You constantly complain that no one is resonding to your points (even when they clearly are), yet you have offered NOTHING substantial to counter the points raised against your arguement by others.

Is it such a mystery why you are not persuasive?

 

[Electro]

Damn I wish it wasnt such a pain in the ass for me to post long messages in here...

anyways -

The US is "bad" because we fought and won a nuclear war which we did not start.

It wasnt a nuclear war until we made it one. Just wait till a nuke is dropped on US soil. It's bound to happen.

We are "bad" becasue we used a defoliant in an effort to lower US casualties in a war against a nation that attacked one of our allies.

How long has scientists known that excessive amounts of dioxins can cause birth defects and other atrocities? Bad idea.

People who don't agree with your are close-minded.

No I encourage people to disagree with me. But what I dont find appealing is someone who thinks they understand me when its obvious to me that they dont.

You ask for proof that a govt. that was caught red-handed trying to assasinate a former president is involved in terrorism.

We're just finishing up where Bush senior left off... whats wrong with that?

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 28 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

You claim the electoral process in a country widely regarded as having the most political freedom does not allow us to choose who goes into office.

Did I have a choice? No I really dont think I did. Gore or Bush... not much of a choice.

You claim the people of Iraq are not responsible for producing chemical weapons, even though they have used them repeatedly.

I never said that the people of Iraq were or were not responsible for anything.

You claim the govt. determines what the media says, even though the media is widely acknowledged to be very liberal and the current govt. is conservative.

You got it - the media is widely acknowledged to be very liberal. Think about it for a moment. If you were a govt offical, wouldnt it be best if the media was perceived as liberal by the public so that the public will 'acknowledge' that "oh its just the media putting that good ol' spin on things"... ?

 

[Electro]

You claim that the vast majority of the people in the South are incapable of thnking beyond their own existance.

Yes I do. And I even include myself in that catagory. So go ahead and get pissed off. Its not an easy thing to think about things that only exist in other people's worlds. There is the inherent problem within humanity. The will to want to rule and destroy will end up destroying us all.

You repeatedly refer to your own opinions and assumptions as "facts"

The only facts I posed were the one's about close minded people =)

Your best supporting reference is a guy who is widely regarded as a laughing stock and you link to quotes from him that are patently false.

I just happened to come across that link 2 minutes before I even posted it... I had never even heard of the guy. I cant personally vouch for anything anyone says. Who knows if what you read is true? You never know. I'll admit I like hearing what people have to say about various issues.. it doesnt mean I stand behind whoever wrote what and when. I just want to hear something SOLID once in a while and not have it skewed somehow.

 

[Electro]

You claim the ramifications of the decision to bomb Japan were not analyzed even though the govt has released MILLIONS of pages of documents that do exactly that.

Yes I am too young to remember WWII, yet here we go again with the idea that we're preparing to use nukes against Iraq... that'd be great to start a nuclear World War III right? Fantastic I say!

 

[Electro]

You claim you have no interest in learning about history or poloiics, then prove it by citing historical events wildly incorrectly or out of context. And then get upset when we don't give serious merit to your opinions on the subject you just told us you don't care enough about to study.

All I can do is try to defend myself when that's not even the point of this "debate". It's not even a debate anymore...its you and me arguing about bullshit that really makes no difference one way or another who's deemed "right" or "wrong".... but I'm sure you feel much better after slamming a mere 25 year old that lives in california... If you'll stay away from the stereotypes then I will too. I promise not to make any redneck references again. (EVEN THOUGH I WAS RAISED AS ONE AND HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SAY ANYTHING I WANT TO ABOUT REDNECKS YEEEEEEDAWGIE!!)

 

[Electro]

You claim you want open-mindedness, but buttress your arguement with name-calling and refuse to acknowledge the validity of the positons of others.

Talk about hypocracy. Name-calling?? what? when? Rednecks??? HAH if you're offended by that, then you're obviously *NOT* a redneck so get over it man. True rednecks are PROUD to be a redneck. Just as I am. I cant deny my heritage. As far as the positions of others, it'd be different if you werent attacking me personally. Thats the only reason we're having this issue.. we're not talking about politics here. We're talking about a personal issue u have with my 'beliefs'...

You base many of your arguements on some sort of moral superiority, then claim we should murder captured prisoners.

Moral superiority? hmm yea I feel I'm morally superior to everyone that has ever lived. Right. Get a grip.

As far as the prisoners, they should have never been taken captive thats not justice, its just perpectuating the problem.

 

[Electro]

Is it such a mystery why you are not persuasive?

Do I care at this point whether I persuade u one way or another? You're from TEXAS the good ol' SOUTH... where some of the most stubborn people are from .... lol just as I am one of the most stubborn people I know... and coincidentally I AM FROM THE SOUTH!

Imagine that. This debate is over... there's nothing else left to analyze.

Now can we talk about something that actually means something at the end of the day rather than picking apart each others statements as if they're the holy spirit?

-Electro

 

[NeoNSX]

wow... this thread is getting serious. time for a humourous distraction... electro... u just equaled MYNSX's record for 7 consecutive posts in a row! Congratulations!

Spencer: That was an interesting article from the Washington Post. thanx for posting. BTW, u really living in Seattle? U dont live near the suburb of 'Kent' by any chance?

[This message has been edited by NeoNSX (edited 28 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

LOL Thanks! Unfortunately the board wont let me post long messages so I have to break them up...

eesh....

-Electro

 

[huckster]

geez, around and around the mulberry bush. What a thread.

Electro, I think your potential arguement got off on the wrong foot. You started talking about past US mistakes when you have an obvious and admitted ignorance of history.

There is a case to be made for non-intervention in Iraq, and certainly non-military intervention.

Try telling us what YOU think the US should do with this situation. Or do you think there is no problem at all and why?

You are at a serious disadvantage when you try to argue politics without any knowledge of history. Your argument is doomed to repeat itself

(by the way, i wasnt alive for WWII either, but I do know a little something about it...)

 

[Lud]

Electro - I mean this constructively, but I am afraid there is no way to word it that you might not take offense to, so I will just say it.

You really need to learn about debating before you continue. You are making yourself look foolish to the point where any valid points you may have are lost in the nonsense. Your lack of historical and political knowledge in a discussion that is entirely about historical and polical issues you brought up to begin with, combined with your random citation of things you found on the Internet with no regard to their credibility is completely undermining every position you have taken.

There ARE good points and valid arguments that can be made against military action in Iraq, against MANY things the US did in Vietnam, against use of nuclear weapons, about things which could or should have been done differently in WWII, etc. But you have not made any of them, or even close to putting together any sort of solid argument or supportable position in the discussion.

Try http://debate.uvm.edu/huber/huber00.html for a start.

Please read through that, do some research so you have a better grasp of the history and politics that constitute the events in question, and then come back and I'm sure many of us would be happy to debate all sides of various issues.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 28 January 2003).]

 

[David]

It wasnt a nuclear war until we made it one.

Huh? Is it even theoretically possible for you to make a point? How about this rebuttal - It wasn't a war until THEY made it one.

How long has scientists known that excessive amounts of dioxins can cause birth defects and other atrocities?.

Since the early to mid 70s (about the time it was used). Still doesn't make weed killer a chemical weapon. Don't you understand that by comparing our use of a common defoliant to a country that uses Sarin on its own people you sound like a fool?

No I encourage people to disagree with me. But what I dont find appealing is someone who thinks they understand me when its obvious to me that they dont.

Again with the hypocracy. You have spoken for me several times in this thread, made several untrue assumptions about me and you post this? Get over yourself. Again, how can anyone take you seriously when you do this? Why don't you try some of the understanding you keep babbling about?

We're just finishing up where Bush senior left off... .

Once again, you have absolutely no cogent response to my point, so you throw out some off point hyperbole. Again, how about responding to the point? YET AGAIN you do soemthing you accuse me of - not responding to the actual point.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 28 January 2003).]

 

[David]

Did I have a choice? No I really dont think I did. Gore or Bush... not much of a choice

Once again, your position is entirely self-centered. Yes, you had a choice. Just because everyone else did not agree with your choices does not mean you did not have one. You were able to vote at every step of the process. Just because the person YOU want was eliminated does not mean there is no choice.

I never said that the people of Iraq were or were not responsible for anything..

Either someone hacked your account or you are a liar.

Originally posted by Electro:
Are the people of Iraq responsible for producing nuclear or biological weapons? Certainly not.

the media is widely acknowledged to be very liberal. Think about it for a moment. If you were a govt offical, wouldnt it be best if the media was perceived as liberal by the public so that the public will 'acknowledge' that "oh its just the media putting that good ol' spin on things"... ?

OMFG! What a conspiracy theory! A conservative govt. that has been in office for two years has completely replaced the media with their minions! Once again, you logic is as screwed up as a stripper's checkbook.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 28 January 2003).]

 

[David]

I just happened to come across that link 2 minutes before I even posted it... I had never even heard of the guy.

And we didn't bow down to your opinion? Go figure. I think this statement pretty much sums up your ability to muster any kind of rational support.

Yes I am too young to remember WWII,

That's an excuse for being ignorant? Guess what? I am too young to remember WWII as well. I am in my 30s. However, I am not to young to learn about something before I go shooting off at the mouth about it. By the time I was 18, I could give you a pretty fair rundown on the history of any major region in the world. Don't be proud of having an opinion - be proud of having an INFORMED opinion.

Secondly, repeatedly bringing up your age as an excuse for not bothering to learn about the subject you are so vehemently argueing is kind of pathetic, don't you think?

It's not even a debate anymore...its you and me arguing about bullshit that really makes no difference

Again, you completely ignore the point, becasue you have no real respons. But, you are partially right. This is half a debate. You post some unsupported rant and I explain why it is wrong point by point. You then accuse me of not addressing your points, then counter by ignoring miine. As you have done here. Again, if you want to have a vailid opinion about something, it helps to have at least some knowledge of the subject your are discussing.

Moral superiority? hmm yea I feel I'm morally superior to everyone that has ever lived. Right. Get a grip.

Yet again you chose to ignore a point because you cannot refute it. Yes, morality. YOU introduce words like "good" and "bad" into the debate, then say you are not taking a moral stand? Do you even know what the word means?

Do I care at this point whether I persuade u one way or another? You're from TEXAS the good ol' SOUTH... where some of the most stubborn people are from

I love this one. You manage to roll several of your debate flaws into a single rant. Obviously you care or you wouldn't be making such a public sptectacle of yourself babbbling on about it. And, thanks for yet another incorrect assumption about me on your part (that's how many now mr. open-minded?) No, I am not from TX; I am just fortunate enough to live in Austin. But, thanks for the using stereotypes after accusing me of the same. Really helps make you look smart.


[This message has been edited by David (edited 28 January 2003).]

 

[David]

This is getting so pathetically one-sided that I feelcompelled to throw you a bone. Being a simple minded Southerner, I believe in archaic values like a fair fight. So far, this has been way too lopsided.

So, here is a hint. Try using this format:

I believe ......[state your position here. Do it clearly, without hyperbole or ranting aimlessley]

I belive this because.... [state your reasoning here}

1) point one [rational arguement or fact]

2) point two [rational arguement or fact]

3) point three [rational arguement or fact]

And so on. Give it a try.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 28 January 2003).]

 

[wildbill846]

Here's a few of my thoughts, and since organized arguments don't seem to be a requirement for this topic, I'll let all of you sort through what makes sense. It just feels good to vent a bit here...

-Saddam has never abided by the terms of the '91 ceasefire. We stopped because he agreed to certain terms. As a matter of policy, we shouldn't give in to someone to just holds out long enough. Fortunately for Saddam, many Americans have short attention spans. Desert Storm forgotten, the huge wave of patriotism we showed following 9/11 is already waning--we are beginning to feel safe at home again and want to keep to ourselves. Its a shame that it takes fear to make America take action. No one saw anything wrong with Osama when his organization killed Americans in overseas embassies, and killed U.S. sailors in an overseas port. When we felt unsafe at home, we finally decided to take action against him. Were the previous American lives any less valuable?

-Saddam admits to paying families of suicide bombers $10,000 for their duty. While those bombers targeted Israel, not my home, it does show his support of terrorism.

-Saddam rules by fear and death. Families must pledge their allegiance to him to receive food rations. Firing squads are common, often just to keep the people obedient.

A regime change is both in the best interest of the U.S. and the Iraqi people. If Saddam were to step down, then yes, this war is unnecessary. He refuses our terms. He refuses to cooperate with the U.N. He refuses the pleas of his Arab neighbors to go into exile. The world is running out of options with Saddam.

-Bill

'92 Red Acura NSX
'68 Grey CH-46E Battle Phrog
(currently somewhere in the Persian Gulf with the 24th MEU)

[This message has been edited by wildbill846 (edited 29 January 2003).]

 

[Justin664]

You continually miss my point. Which is fine. The reason the things I say may sound hypocritical is because most of it is said in abstract thought. That may be a new concept for you... It's not an easy thing for most people to follow.

You're taking this way too personally. I never attacked you. But of course you get offended.

If that is not a personal attack, tell what it is...

 

[Electro]

Obviously I cant make a clear statement without first having to defend myself from someone who doesnt understand me, and secondly trying to correct someone's misinterpritation of what I meant.

As far as "the people of Iraq" I was not lying... Never have I done that. I was talking about CIVILIANS here.. yet another example where you're taking what I'm saying out of context.

Yet again, about the TEXAS thing, I truly don't care where you're from. I was being sarcastic just as you're using every letter of every word of mine against me in the wrong context. Just as I'm not from california, u've been calling me a 'left-coaster' or whatever... thats hypocracy.

This type of misinterpritation is not going to stop so I'm going to stop.

 

[Electro]

The whole point of this thread was merely a rant. I dont give a shit what anyone has to say in response to it. I was letting off steam as I have already said. For anyone to tell me my rant is unwarranted, then they're wrong. It's not a question of moral superiority.

Let's just nuke the entire middle east and get it over with so I can get back to watching Friends on FOX.

(that was a joke by the way)

From now on, i'm going to suffix all my sarcasm and 'jokes' as dry as they may be so that no one will ever misunderstand me again.

-Electro

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

Electro,There are a few members that will argue about any subject on this forum to the extent of running a few off. A while back I recall reading a post about some new oil out and you would of thought that some of the people were chemical engineers knowing more than the people who invented it.Stick to your guns.

 

[David]

Originally posted by Electro:
Obviously I cant make a clear statement ......

We finally agree on something! ; )

As far as "the people of Iraq" I was not lying... Never have I done that. I was talking about CIVILIANS here..

Then you are just plain wrong. The scientists, technicians and plain old factory workers cranking them out were civilians.

I'm going to stop.

Thank you. A mercy killing is probably the best thing that could happen to this thread.

Y'all have a nice day; I'm going to have a beer with my cute Russain girlfriend.

 

[huckster]

Just because im the most opinionated does Not mean I have to post the most. In fact, i know several people who are probably more opinionated than me who arent posting here at all. Just IMHO. I'm really not that opinionated on this particular topic as I really dont know enough about the historical/political context of this region. I mean, we are talking about the same idiots who are trying to exterminate the kurds--does anybody here know why??

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

Not so fast with the patting yourself on the back you don't have as many posts as David