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Just for fun
- Thread starter TURBO2GO
- Start date
Tai,
May I ask why you think this way? Not even close? what the hell are you talking about? Even a bone stock NA2 NSX-S is not far slower than a NA2-R.
Are you aware that his car is also an NSX? It is a NA2 to begin with. NSX is still a NSX. Even in Tsukuba where it have little room to stretch its legs. It have better than a good chance even with stock suspension.
His NSX is got RT615, 150lb weight reduction, addtional non-power related mods. That alone will close up the gap a lot, perhaps trim .5sec off Tsukuba, on top of that far better power to weight ratio. Even a stock NA2-NSX-R benefit grately from further weight reduction and I/H/E. Take Route KS NA2-R for example. It ran a 1'01.733 at Tsukuba in 2006. That is butt rapping improvment over stock NA2 R with just minor performance upgrades. Roughly 3.5~4sec improvment per lap. I will post the scan of the time attack results later from Vtecsport.
Nurburgring is a long track with tons of straight. Even NA1 with bone stock inferior everything was able to run 8'16"15. Yes, it is a big difference, approximly 4% with stock suspension, heavier car, less power.
NA2 NSX-R 7'56"73
NA1 NSX-R 8'03"86
NA2 NSX S ZERO 8'10"06
NA1 NSX 8'16"15
I will post some shocking materials later when I have time from scans of VTEC sport magazine.
I believe the NA2 Type R clocked 103.9 at Tsukuba, which is 2.2 seconds off the Route KS, which I believe had some considerable weight reduction and race spec tires.
Acceleration over 100mph would obviously favor the CTSC, so for those high speed tracks, I will stay with my claim "most tracks". But being a T-Top does have it's disadvantages of reduced chassis rigidity and increased weight. These factors don't matter that much on the street. They make a HUGE impact on the track. The weight gain may be partially offset from standard coupe with -150lbs weight reduction, but no where near the 1270 Kilo's of the Type R. And Tsukuba (and the Nurburgring) are big on cornering speeds. You and I both know how much faster a standard Modena is than a Type R on the straights, but even on tracks like Motegi, the Type R absolutely dominates. Perhaps a good reference would be to measure how much faster this NSX is around a track than a 360 to start. And don't forget that the Type R more than likely has more than "280ps".
Perhaps we will end up with a wager from this thread with an actual race.:biggrin: Question is, who here in the states has an NA2 Type R?
Acceleration over 100mph would obviously favor the CTSC, so for those high speed tracks, I will stay with my claim "most tracks". But being a T-Top does have it's disadvantages of reduced chassis rigidity and increased weight. These factors don't matter that much on the street. They make a HUGE impact on the track. The weight gain may be partially offset from standard coupe with -150lbs weight reduction, but no where near the 1270 Kilo's of the Type R. And Tsukuba (and the Nurburgring) are big on cornering speeds. You and I both know how much faster a standard Modena is than a Type R on the straights, but even on tracks like Motegi, the Type R absolutely dominates. Perhaps a good reference would be to measure how much faster this NSX is around a track than a 360 to start. And don't forget that the Type R more than likely has more than "280ps".
Perhaps we will end up with a wager from this thread with an actual race.:biggrin: Question is, who here in the states has an NA2 Type R?
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Gotta go with the NSX-R. No offense Dave but most of the guys here don't know track apparently. You probably only have about 30 hp on the NSX-R ,but it's still about 200lbs lighter than your car. Which means a lot going into turns after several laps. You have the stock suspension with NSX-R braces ,but you still have the stock coilovers which are pretty soft. The NSX-R stiffer suspension is going to juice you in the turns. People don't understand when a car is track tuned it really is just that. Even the suspension bushing plates on the NSX-R are stiffened.
Guys here also must think the NSX-R aero aids are just for show ,but at speed the hood scoop and wing , diffusor are working in sink to push the car down giving it extra grip. Look at the monster wing BIO has on his car for example downforce becomes crucial for high speed track driving. I don't think a BBK is going to outperform the NSX-R brakes either again these were tuned just for the car. Whenever you watch the NSX-R in videos you don't see the NSX-R brakes fading and it almost always wins the braking duel.
Once you get into racing you really start to pay attention to this stuff. The track event I was at last month had a guy in a stock EVO with his suspension tuned by "Robi" ( famous suspension tuner ) and he was killing other engine modded EVOs all day. Suspension is more important than HP. I've beaten cars with more hp on the track because they couldn't keep up in the turns. The Re070 tires on the NSX are basically like an R compound as well. Take for example the S2000CR with just suspesion and tires they knocked 2 seconds off the cars lap time
A supercharged S2000 would have a hard time matching that.
Finally check out the NSX-R page on Hondas website. I went over those pages for days before I finally started the R conversion process. When you see the detail Honda went through you see they put a lot of research into the R and ate a lot of lunches on the track. Once you see that you understand why the NSX-R was and is still so competitive against even higher powered cars.
Guys here also must think the NSX-R aero aids are just for show ,but at speed the hood scoop and wing , diffusor are working in sink to push the car down giving it extra grip. Look at the monster wing BIO has on his car for example downforce becomes crucial for high speed track driving. I don't think a BBK is going to outperform the NSX-R brakes either again these were tuned just for the car. Whenever you watch the NSX-R in videos you don't see the NSX-R brakes fading and it almost always wins the braking duel.
Once you get into racing you really start to pay attention to this stuff. The track event I was at last month had a guy in a stock EVO with his suspension tuned by "Robi" ( famous suspension tuner ) and he was killing other engine modded EVOs all day. Suspension is more important than HP. I've beaten cars with more hp on the track because they couldn't keep up in the turns. The Re070 tires on the NSX are basically like an R compound as well. Take for example the S2000CR with just suspesion and tires they knocked 2 seconds off the cars lap time
A supercharged S2000 would have a hard time matching that. Finally check out the NSX-R page on Hondas website. I went over those pages for days before I finally started the R conversion process. When you see the detail Honda went through you see they put a lot of research into the R and ate a lot of lunches on the track. Once you see that you understand why the NSX-R was and is still so competitive against even higher powered cars.
I have a dynosheet I can post, 396 RWHP. My AVERAGE HP on 4 or maybe 5 different dynos was something like 368. I had a baseline dyno done on the same dyno before and after CTSC and GT-One exhaust, probably the most accurate way, and it was +113 HP. Both those sheets are posted. So an R motor is "balanced"... woo hoo... if you think that the HP difference between my car with the supercharger and exhaust and a stock R engine is 30... you've been breathing too much tire smoke. Perhaps you thought my car was blue?!
And I won't even get into the torque #'s.
I also said that the R wing, hood and diffusor were part of the package on my car.
That is not true either. Did you see the famous video with Gan San racing the Gallardos where the R brakes faded badly at the end? Ask vintageracerNYC what he thought of the BBK that he won the 4 hour enduro at Sebring with. I don't think the R brakes will outperform the RB BBK. The difference in rotor type/size is just too great.
While I think the R is a well balanced car, it can't do what physics do not allow you to do. No matter how much you "tune" your ecu or how finely you balance your pistons, its never going to be the same as 7 pounds of boost going down the engine's throat. While the brakes may be very well designed, I don't think they will be able to stay nearly as cool as a 2-piece discs that are some 26mm larger.
Perry,
Come on bro, give people more credit than that, that is not fact. Like always I will just be myself with my own opinions. We all watched enough BM videos, the 1/4mile time of NSX-R is not dramaticly faster than stock NSX-S. Best time vs best time. Type S zero with non blue printed motor matched best effort of NSX-R. If quarter mile time is the best indication. NSX-R does not pack that much more power than stock NA2.
It doesn't matter what form of power adder (NA, Turbo, SC). Additional 100hp is significant, and without a doubt helps, that including stock NSX-R. How many times have we seen NSX-R dominate in corners then fall flat in straightline.
We are all fans of NSX-R, sometimes we have to be realistic. Blance is important, hp is part of that to certain extent. Even all mighty NSX-R had a lot of room for improvment.
A Supercharged or turbo S2000 will run a faster lap time than stock, no question about it. It may just match or beat the S2000CR if it run the same tires. Tires alone make a huge difference.The Re070 tires on the NSX are basically like an R compound as well. Take for example the S2000CR with just suspesion and tires they knocked 2 seconds off the cars lap time
I am tired, There are a lot of items I would like to post, finishing up the rest later.
2005 Tsukuba Time attack result:
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Hello, I'm back for more.
I think both cars have different strength.
Essentially, it is extra hp vs. suspension.
Therefore, the result will different between track to track.
What I really want to see is. NSX-R with CTSC do a Nurburgring run. I wonder if it can pull in the range of 7:40 to 7:30-ish?
That would be the story if the car can achieve that.
I think both cars have different strength.
Essentially, it is extra hp vs. suspension.
Therefore, the result will different between track to track.
What I really want to see is. NSX-R with CTSC do a Nurburgring run. I wonder if it can pull in the range of 7:40 to 7:30-ish?
That would be the story if the car can achieve that.
Sorry chief I don't know your real hp numbers I saw Vance say you had an extra sixty hp and it pretty much known that the NSX-R has about 330hp. Apparently you didn't read the Honda NSX-R article or would have seen it's more than balancing that went into making the car faster as the ecu is different as well as gearing and throttle response. Again all these things were not done superficially. You think you spent a lot on your modding your NSX! Honda spent a lot more. You think they couldn't have added a supercharger to make the faster if it was a cheaper way to go? Think about how that sounds for a second. The NSX was never my dream and the NSX-R was never my passion. I'm telling you to read up on the car before you think it is just the little bits and pieces that you hear about on this site. I've yet to hear Vance mention buying a lot of the suspension pieces that are on the NSX-R as it more than just the coilovers. Again you need to read the pages that go into depth about what was done to the car:smile:
Yes but you never mentioned the supporting stuff. Also you never mention pics:wink: . The hood w/o the nose sealer and battery tray won't work as it's supposed to. Your diffuser is very curious to me. You got the cool one with the longer strakes ,but I'm uncertain as to why Honda did the same thing on it's prototype NSX-R ,but not on the production version. Either it had conflicting properties or the longer fins didn't add anything downforce wise and were just adding weight to the car. Only thing about our vendors is I never hear them mentioning that they've done any windflow testing for aerodynamic drag cf ( coeffecient in this case not carbon fiber:tongue: ) on the parts they sell so although they look good to the eye they may or may not be adding anything performance wise.
Sorry boss you need to re watch the video. 7 mins in the NSX-R was still out braking the Lambo showing it's brakes hadn't faded at all. The engine overheated ,but the brakes didn't/weren't fading. Not saying RB BBKs aren't a good mod as I want them as well ,but your just looking at size. Again we do research by reading online while Honda did it's research at the track and could've put larger brakes on the NSX-R and choose to go slotted with special pads. I've not seen a video yet where that cars brakes faded. The RB BBK are a good brake upgrade to try and compensate for our having heavier cars.
You think it's a well balanced car but it's actually proven itself to be so. I understand how your thinking goes when I was driving modded Z twin turbos I felt the same way. You start thinking that boost is the solution and on street driving suspension doesn't come much in to play. But at this point from everything your saying you sound like just that a "street driver". Track drivers understand that 7 pounds of boost can and is over come all the time on the track. From what I've seen and been reading the NSX-R has a very good "synergy" and that shines on the track. Can it be improved upon? Probably . Everything can be improved upon ,but again you can't improve synergy just by giving something more hp.
You've got great mods chief and the car is undoubtedly fast. Don't want you to think I'm tearing down your pride and joy because I'm not. From the way your writing it sounds like you just didn't research what your wanting to race against. If I hadn't started paying attention on the track and watching different things while I've learning these last 5-6 years I'd be on the same page with ya:biggrin:
Hey Jason
Just going by what some people are saying man. We've also seen the NSX and NSX-S and NSX-R whup up on cars that have better 1/4 times so apparently there's something else going on. I apologized to Dave as I didn't know his hp ,but we also don't know the NSX-R's hp and I hate to make assumptions about an unknown at best guess people that have driven it believe it to be quite a bit more than stock. Since none of us have driven it it's hard to be certain.
Never said it wasn't significant chief just that in this case Daves hp is not greater than some of the cars we've seen lose to the NSX on the track. You are the king of the BMI videos ( BTW you still haven't posted the NSX-R vid that I asked you about and know you have:biggrin: ) so I know you've noticed that cars that are faster on the straights don't always post the fastest lap times. If a car posts a faster lap time then it's the faster car on the track.
I'm not a fan like some of you and I don't think the NSX-R is almighty by any means. I've no delusions concerning it as to this day it still surprises me when it wins against cars I believe should be it's superior. Mods don't improve everything and to improve the NSX-R one would need to do a complete overhaul not just add something here or there and it would need to be tested every step of the way just as Honda did. We've seen and mentioned the video where the NSX-R lost and over heated racing the two Lambos. More power would not have have changed this situation as adding a supercharger would've just made the car overheat faster ( if I'm wrong explain to me why I would rather understand something than just argue to argue ) The weakness that video showed to me was the the car was being driven beyond 10/10 as held up as long as it could against a superior power. It's a testament to durability that it could be driven that long and that hard against a car that had almost twice the hp. For the NSX-R to win that race it would need complete revamp not just a supercharger. New engine for more hp new suspension to match that hp and new brakes to match the engine suspension combination.
Honestly guys I've no delusions about the NSX-R ,but I've also got no delusions about modding my car past the NSX-R. The most I could hope to do is try to compensate to try and match it.
That was my point to Dave is that the NSX-R is basically on R compounds. We're saying the same thing in this case. Not likely if the suspension isn't changed to handle the extra power. You guys do know it's possible to over power a suspension:wink:
2005 Tsukuba Time attack result:
Sweet pics. Thanks as always for sharing
There are too many variables for this to be an accurate discussion. I voted for the Type R from a sentimental viewpoint, but the reality is that your BBk and extra 100 HP is hard to beat. BTW, why have you modded the susp. as of yet.
Also - How much does the CTSC ADD to the weight. Any other mods you have that add weight?
Fun discussion. Specially the GT vs. 360 Comparo:biggrin:
Also - How much does the CTSC ADD to the weight. Any other mods you have that add weight?
Fun discussion. Specially the GT vs. 360 Comparo:biggrin:
I have not modded the suspension because I didn't want to be like the pupil that has surpassed his master and now can kick his ass... I did it out of respect for the R.... After all, he was the old Master...My Sensei... I can't just beat on him now.
Seriously, I haven't done it because the roads where I drive are horrendous. And I am just not tracking the car at this point. I do have the R bars and chassis bars. With those, the -150/lb and the RT615 the car handles way different than what it used to do. I know that for sure.
The CTSC I think is adding around 40 pounds of net weight... Jason probably knows better.
I am reading this thread with much delight... having WingZee start every long paragraph with "sorry Bud", "Sorry chief", and "sorry boss"... is just TERRIFIC. hahaha. At least he knows who his boss really is... :biggrin:
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Yeah and we all know what everybody says about the "boss" whenever he's not around..LOL
I guess the main problem is most guys here are ignorant of everything that wen't into the NSX-R and misleading statements by members like Vance and others who say the have the NSX-R suspension. Let's clear this up and make it plain for everyone to understand. NSX-R shocks and springs DO NOT give you an NSX-R suspension! I don't think that Vance and others intended this to happen but it has unfortunately. The NSX-R has different rear compliance bushings ,rear lower arm bushings , rear control arm bushings and an LSD track tuned to specifically take advantage of how this whole suspension will react with the aerodynamic modifications that Honda put into it. When we put the NSX coilovers on ours cars we're basically "hodgepodging" as we are putting them into a car whose weight, bushings and LSD are different than what they were specifically tuned for.
Dave you of all people should know better than this as "you" were the first one to start telling people that the GT-ROM exhaust and headers were specifically "tuned" for each other. Same goes for the complete NSX-R suspension.
The fact that your modded NSX is ahead in the voting shows just how ignorant some of our people are. I'm not telling you because I'm trying to protect some "legend" that I hold dear. I'm telling you guys to read and see that we've actually started to trivialize the NSX-R and think that braces and coilovers put our cars at it's level. Unfortunately they don't:frown:
Read for yourselves and see
http://www.world.honda.com/NSX/
I thought someone would had posted by now. I do have the full disc of that video. What portion are you looking for? test? race? If you want to buy the disc on line and add to your collection. It is 2002 August issue.
I will edit and upload it by tomorrow.
Yes, indeed. Please don't forget, it never raced against another "NSX" with more power. Our NSX in stock form is a miracle in itself, it is already a very blanced car from the start. Even stock NSX was able to run faster lap time than a lot of other high power cars at Nurburgering.
You can also see what other cars without double the hp are able to do against NSX-R even at certain tracks. I do fully agree power is not the most important factor, but it is part of the game.
This discussion was about chaces of a already well balanced NA2 6spd NSX with additional of I/H/E/SC/BBK/ETC/RT615 tires vs NSX-R. Considering all factors the odds are very good in Dave's favor.
He is fully aware of that. He read the same web site over and over many times before. It takes time and money to do everything.
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No it appears like no one else has it. Part of it was posted on youtube "NSX-R tried hard on track. Which I've watched a couple hundred times LOL someone posted the rest of it and it got yanked
True and that would be interesting to watch. A personal modded NSX vs Hondas modded NSX..LOL like the title says "just for fun"
Yeah on the smaller tracks the AWD definitely makes up quite a bit.
So then does he have all those other suspension parts? I finally found a dealer in Britain that looked up all the part numbers for me and told me I would have to buy a complete rear NSX-R suspension as Honda wouldn't sell the parts seperately. I ended up settling for the non compliance bushings ,but those don't replace all the parts the NSX-R has. It's interesting that Honda will only sell certain parts of the NSX-R. Only way for us to get more would be for someone to buy an NSX-R and take it apart and make copies and I would hate to see one end that way. Just to few of them.
I've read this several times, and while I think many of the mods have value, I also think this whole thing was written with some marketing in mind.
Comptech used to race the NSX. I think they correctly identified many of the weak points and that's why they have non-complaince beams and bushings. I think their pro suspension kit along with the non-compliance stuff makes the car as good as the R. I also think a good aftermarket BBK is superior to the stock R brakes. I am not buying the R putting out 40 more HP because it has balanced pistons, rods and flywheel (290 versus your stated 330). Besides HP, the CTSC provides GOBS more torque... all over the band not at some peak. I don't have the rear diffusor you are thinking of.
It's apparent that a lot of people do this ,but they actually tell from start to finish what they did to the car. The hows and the why. It is a souped up NSX ,but then again it's not. In some ways it really is a different car. We don't want to see it that way we want it to be something that just has some "extra stuff" and some here or there weight savings. Since you say you've read it then you know they said that the first NSX-R was an old way of thinking and that they wanted the new one to surpass the old and used different means to do so. Again it's a lot of "I think" instead of paying attention to the engineering science they were using and then validating that science on the track.
Again this is just "I think" on your part ( not to insult ) but Honda raced the NSX more than comptech and I've read before where the comptech NSXs were not a large improvement over the standard NSX. It's nice that you "think" the comptech NSX suspension makes an NSX just as good as the NSX-R ,but if it was Honda could've easily just taken the Comptech research on the NSX and made that the NSX-R. It would've been less expensive for them developement wise and cheaper for manufacture. I'm sure because of it's close ties with Honda comptech could've arranged for a test to see where they were performance wise compared to Honda to the benefit of both companies.
Not to repeat myself but again Honda used synergy when creating the NSX-R. They did one part and then tested on track to see how those improvements affected the other improvements. More than just identifying "weak spots". Apparently a set of engineers were given the task to do this and only this as their job for however long NSX-R development took. I wish the Comptech mods were just as good I've got a couple of them as I can't get the equivalent NSX-R mods.
Dave you modded your car before tracking it so how would you know exactly what your NSXs track weakness were? I started modding after tracking and by asking other trackers which worked best for them when they encountered the same problems I was. Not the best way ,but I don't have the money to buy something and track test it over and over to decide whats best. Nsxtasy gives a lot of great track help ,but ultimately our cars are similar ,but not the same. He has a lighter weight fixed roof car whose engine and tranny are different than ours. When Honda makes their NSX-R , Type S and Type S Zero those changes are specific to that models weight , engine , drive train etc.
I realize that you listed this as just for fun ,but there really is quite a bit of science that you "want " to dismiss as marketing and like most street racers wish to think that hp&tq make up for all the over things Honda engineers spent a lot of money and time on. Get some track time in and see how the car works out. Since this is just for fun:wink:
Perry,
It has been done already. The comparison of modded NSX-R vs stock NSX-R, vs modded NSX.
Vtec Club 4 shown the difference it makes when you add power to NSX. In fact it also shown stock NSX-R's weakness at Tsukuba from a prior race. It can use additional power even in tight track like that. NSX-R lost btw at Tsukuba. Even Tsuchiya agree.
Can't always take BM videos too serious. How much experience BM drivers have experience in driving NSX-R over the years on countless occassions. How much experience they have driving Ferrari, Porsche, ETC. They might be familiar with NSX-R that they can extract most of its performance. Can't say the same for other cars.
From light tune I/H/E, NA stroker ITB (Similar orclose to power level to SC, near identical power band), Turbo. All result better time than stock NSX-R. The Esprit Turbo is even left handed drive car.
Tsuchiya have won and beat NSX-R factory tuned suspension with his own suspension on two separate comparisons.
Indeed again, please take a look at above time attack times. It doesn't take always take AWD to beat NSX at what it does best. Imagine if it were Fuji Speedway instead of Tsukuba.
The Route KS NSX-R did really well in street class. Street class require nearly full weight, emission test, 2 seats, perfectly working ac, etc. Even that Route KS NSX-R with Route KS brake upgrade was able to dramaticly improve the time over stock NSX-R by a lot. That is just a lightly modded NSX-R.
It weight exactly 2700lbs. I doubt they run a full tank for the time attack:
You have good logic, but this comment above is just too biased for my taste.
There are plenty of people who track cars here. Anyone who is winning races or time attack events are not running NSX-R suspension. I wonder why? Spend a little time reading some of Doug Hayashi's racing stories. He did performance upgrades step by step. Here you go. Read from chapter 1. http://www.nsxfiles.com/stories.htm
Mods cost money. Unless people are sponsored. People will address their immediate need first then move onto other items slowly.
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LOL You said a modded NSX-R vs the NSX-R. That's not what were talking about here. We're talking about a modded NSX-T vs a stock NSX-R. Big difference as the modded car is based off an already modded car:biggrin:
Believe I don't them as gospel as the driver expierence is very apparent in most races. Driver is very important.
I'm not sure I understand if your saying these mods work better on a stock NSX or stock NSX-R. Please clarify.
Your saying his regular NSX beat a NSX-R with just suspension? again please clarify
nsxsupra;857163Indeed again said:Of course the NSX doesn't do it best and again it always surprises me that it does as well as it does. I've just seen from personal expierence how awd can keep up with fancy mid engine cars by eliminating the need for additional skill
http://www.route-ks.com/feature/old/images/i210_60.jpg[/IMG]
I guess a modded NSX-R is a much better platform to start modding than stock NSX-Ts:biggrin:
Sorry Jason I'm not trying to discount Comptechs expertise and am by no means saying the NSX-R suspension is the greatest thing out there ,but that suspension was tuned specifically to work with it's aero dynamics and weight vs NSX-T that is heavier and softer to begin with. Step by step is the way to go while your racing/tracking. Dave has never tracked his car and has modded it quite a bit now is making a comparison to a car that was tracked while making mods and tested to be sure those were the right mods.
I said it before I don't beleive the NSX-R to be the end all be all and it's not my dream car. I respect it by reading what went into it and that Honda took quite a bit of effort in producing this track/street car.
Plus it would take a large company like Honda to spend more money on mods than Dave..LOL
Perry,
It is perfectly ok. If I sounded mean or harsh in any way, I am sorry as well, I really don't meant it to sound like that, please don't take it to the heart. I am only interested in the discussion part, trust me on that.:smile: :biggrin:
I would not be too surprised most NSX-R owners in Japan don't track cars either, even though they have a track ready car from factory. For some just to have it is enough.
I don't track my NSX. I simply can't afford this addiction fiancially, I am serious:redface:. I read all of the Pulp Racing chapters years ago, I don't want to end up like that. It is a very helplessly addictive hobby and big money pit. If I do end up tracking, I prefer tracking with S2K, if anything happen, I can replace it with little or no effort.
That can't prevent me from wanting to improve whatever areas I felt lacking, I am only limited by my budget. I will eventually get to the brake and suspension, lightweight racing seats, and drop even additional weight off the car.
While NSX-R suspension might be the best out of box plug and play suspension. Many NSX-R owners in Japan ditch the NSX-R suspension, I often wonder why. Perhaps you also noticed. Just 2 week ago there were a set NSX-R suspension on Yahoo Japan ended at 80000yen, it actually ended at that price, I double checked. Roughly $760 with zero bid. There are other used ones on YJ from time to time.
Delef of Procar have access of many NSX-R parts. Look at his NSX. He is not running R suspension in favor of something far lighter + adjustability.
It is perfectly ok. If I sounded mean or harsh in any way, I am sorry as well, I really don't meant it to sound like that, please don't take it to the heart. I am only interested in the discussion part, trust me on that.:smile: :biggrin:
The white Revolution NSX is not a modded NSX-R or on NSX-R suspension. I have already stated my point. Dave's NSX is a modded NSX, for a car that is not to shabby to begin with. If Honda R&D mean anything, it also happen to have Honda OEM suspension as well, might not be a R, but still OEM. With his mods, don't you think he can trim at least 2~2.5sec off the lap time off the stock NSX-T?
People have freedom to do anything at well to their pride and joy. It is a hobby and addiction. I don't see why anyone have to track the car to gain any qualification to mod their own car to their liking. The owner of the Ultimate Street Car challenge NSX, does not track the car. He said he enjoy building the car. The process is half the fun. I agree with his concept.
I would not be too surprised most NSX-R owners in Japan don't track cars either, even though they have a track ready car from factory. For some just to have it is enough.
I don't track my NSX. I simply can't afford this addiction fiancially, I am serious:redface:. I read all of the Pulp Racing chapters years ago, I don't want to end up like that. It is a very helplessly addictive hobby and big money pit. If I do end up tracking, I prefer tracking with S2K, if anything happen, I can replace it with little or no effort.
That can't prevent me from wanting to improve whatever areas I felt lacking, I am only limited by my budget. I will eventually get to the brake and suspension, lightweight racing seats, and drop even additional weight off the car.
While NSX-R suspension might be the best out of box plug and play suspension. Many NSX-R owners in Japan ditch the NSX-R suspension, I often wonder why. Perhaps you also noticed. Just 2 week ago there were a set NSX-R suspension on Yahoo Japan ended at 80000yen, it actually ended at that price, I double checked. Roughly $760 with zero bid. There are other used ones on YJ from time to time.
Delef of Procar have access of many NSX-R parts. Look at his NSX. He is not running R suspension in favor of something far lighter + adjustability.
Hey Jason. I didn't/don't think you sound either mean or harsh. We're having a discussion and both have what we feel are valid arguments and logic. I as you love the discussion part:biggrin:
Okay I wasn't sure which NSXs you were talking about ,but you did mention modded NSX-Rs several times so thanks for clarifying.
No I don't because he didn't change the suspension ultimately limiting his cornering speed. You have to both as it's not that easy to drop two seconds. Not impossible mind you but not easy.
It had to be tracked at some point to win the ultimate street car challenge right:smile: Before I started tracking my car I could agree with that statement ,but now that I do I ralize with street driving you really don't come anywhere near a cars ( especially the NSXs ) limitations so basically what you run into ( other than cars or people ) on the street is driver limitation. So what some people end up doing is "modding" their ability which is what driver education on a track is for. It's great for vendors and me as people do all this stuff and then sell it w/o ever knowing what they had.
I also wouldn't be and that's a shame you pay all that money for a sportscar just cruise or make quick getaways. Might as well by a Benz.
You and me both on the budget. I pick and choose and slowly do stuff. I find I can get good stuff from Japan on Yahoo auctions sometimes. Of course it's used but that doesn't bother me as long as it's in good condition and rare.
I remember those and they didn't sell because one of the shocks was leaking/bad. There's a pair of Quantams ( which always get snapped up ) that have been on Yahoo for about three weeks now maybe more. My translator says "Gari" which I take to mean crack ,but it looks like a scratch those have been continually reposted for 175000 yen which is a descent price. Yaho is weird in that certain times of year your fighting to get stuff ,but in the summer stuff just sits. Kinda like NSXprimes for sale section in summer LOL
I wouldn't think he would. His car is lighter than the NSX-R and has different aerodynamics. Besides he can customize his NSX suspension as it's not mass or even limited production just the one car. Again what I said is great about the NSX-R is that all it's mods are tested to work together on the track and that has allowed it to win against cars I didn't think it would be able to. I'm gonna do a Dave and say "I still think" the Ferrari 360CS should've done better against the NSX-R and I see those two as the strongest of possible rivals , but hey there it was on film. Maybe the Ferrari just had a crappy driver..LOL
Perry,
He is got strength as well, are you aware of that? We all watched plenty of BM videos. How many times have we said, go NSX-R go in the straights. It dominate than get beat in straight. That is its weakness. Balance is simply just that balance, all areas.
That is why I gave you the modded NSX-R example to show what aftermakret tuners can do to improve Honda's own factory performer "NSX-R". My point is just simply that it can be improved. Even Tsuchiya have pointed out the straightline weakness of NSX-R.
Dave's NSX while short on some area, it make up in certain areas that NSX-R doesn't have. Unless you are running in Auto X, you spend a lot of time in corners. It out accelerate, maybe out brake. If you think acceleration doesn't play any factor then you are equally 1-dimensional as those who think suspension is not important. I fully acknowledge the need to be balanced in all areas.
Car and Driver September 2002 issue: "At the track as well as around town, Comptech's extra low-end twist and high end ponies made it noticeabley faster. 0~100mph come two seconds faster than stock (July 1997 NSX-T), at 9.7sec: and 100~150mph-the most-telling-elapsed 9.8seconds sooner than stock. This is the strength Dave's NSX have over NSX-R. One area that will help his lap time on top of the handling items he got.
He hired a driver. Like I said before, people have freedom at well. Building a car is really fun. Simple as that. If you own a gun, do you have to hurt someone with it to justifiying owning one?
Maybe they see it as an art, if that is the case good for them, people can find appreciateion in all forms. Good thing we have freedom. Just as people can tell us why drive an NSX when you can have a C6 Z06.
Regarding tracking to understand the car. I fully agree with you, I do play a lot of Forza and GT4 to get familiar to the race tracks like many professional drivers. Trust me they do use it to learn. It is fun, I can imagine how much more fun it will be to drive on real track, I am also aware, if shit happen, it will also be quite a bit more painful. I am more of an appreciate and take care of things type.
I have not yet have time to convert the video. The disc I have is DAT file not mpeg or avi. I said I will upload it today, still a chance. If I can't upload it by tomorrow I will send the disc to you:
Hey Jason
Funny I was just talking to a fellow track rat about the discussion we were having and the first thing he asked was "did the guy change the suspension" and then shook his head. Track people know and understand just how critical a supporting mod suspension is. NSX-R would put so much distance in the corners that the most Dave could do would be to catch up tp it on the straights. Just looking at the changes made the NSX-R will leave the NSX-T for dead in the corners. The suspension seems that much improved.
Have you seen video tests of the NSX-T on a track? I've never seen BMI test that version on the track. If just the two braces do as much as they do for increasing the rigidity of the NSX-T imagine what they do for a fixed roof coupe. You keep thinking his power will compensate ,but he pulling around a heavier car each additional pound is sucking up his hp and putting pressure on his brakes which have to work harder due to the softer suspension. Yes he can fly down the straights but most of his power will be lost going into turns where the NSX-R is able to brake less get on the power sooner and accelerate quicker out of the turns. That edge alone will be killing Dave. Think about some of your BMI videos and look at how great the distance is between two cars when one car is just a second or two faster.
Right but Dave hasn't improved an NSX-R he's improved an NSX-T which would actually be slower on the track than just a regular coupe due to weight. Yes I agree anything can be improved.
Yes but acceleration is only part and you can make up speed in corners that you lose in the straight away. Once the NSX-R gets ahead of Dave in the corners which honestly wouldn't take long. The race would pretty much be over. Understand that because Dave couldn't keep up in the corners he will always be playing catch up. He would lose because you can't win a race playing catch up.
That comparison is between a modded NSX-T vs a stock NSX-T. It's good to show what a modded NSX-T can do ,but were talking about a much lighter coupe. How much faster do you think the NSX-R is compared to a stock NSX-T? Coupes start out faster than the T version so a modded coupe generally will be faster than a modded T. Understand my logic.
Doesn't matter who drove it it still got tracked because of the competition. No imagine how much faster the same car would be if they used track testing to improve the mods and help them work together. Sure you can take a gun to a shooting range and let it do what it's supposed to:biggrin:
The C6 is a better performer but the NSX still performs so I don't think that's a good argument.
Regarding tracking to understand the car. I fully agree with you, I do play a lot of Forza and GT4 to get familiar to the race tracks like many professional drivers. Trust me they do use it to learn. It is fun, I can imagine how much more fun it will be to drive on real track, I am also aware, if shit happen, it will also be quite a bit more painful. I am more of an appreciate and take care of things type.
I have not yet have time to convert the video. The disc I have is DAT file not mpeg or avi. I said I will upload it today, still a chance. If I can't upload it by tomorrow I will send the disc to you:
Doh! Okay buddy whenever you get a chance. I just appreciate you doing it:smile:
Perry, our discussion is just going on and on in a full circle. I already waste way too much time on this discussion, I think I can take a month off.
No one said the suspension is "not" critical, it is, please get that out of your mind. Power is also critical to a certain degree "as well". I don't why the track guy would shake his head, perhaps he is ignorant or biased, Did he know Dave have his own criteria. I am sure he can afford any suspension set up at well. I know a lot of car saleman or car mechanics/engine builder who think they know everything and expect people to agree, becuase they have certain qualification. Maybe the track guy is similar in this regard. Even Tsuchiya is very biased, just watch the American Touge 1 or many of the BM videos. I like Orido and Gan san a lot better.
Dave's comparison is really legitimate. It might not guarantee a win for sure. It have extremly great chance. The mods on his car helps simple as that, enough to beat a bone stock NSX-R or not, that is his question. He is roughtly at 3000lbs with approximately 410~415bhp. With a weight/power ratio of 7.3. Stock is 10.86.
Regardless of the result, he is way faster than bone stock. Is it enough to improve 2sec with his bbk, tire, addkitional item and significantly better power to weight ratio, perhaps you should as your track guy.
Anyone who think NSX-R have more power than stock NA2 will be fooling themselves. Its abosolute best miracle effort once in a full moon is about as fast in 1/4mile as NSX-S-Zero which have similar power/weight ratio to NSX-R. If it have more power, all NA2s have as much.
When watching best motoring videos besides the results, be sure to check the fastest lap time as well. 360CS is nearly 2 sec faster than NSX-R in Motegi East. 996GT3 is 1sec faster.
I think it would be an insult if someone come up to me and say if you don't track the car you should drive a Benz. I personally really enjoy driving NSX over other cars.
I fully understand your logic. I hope you understand my as well.
I think 2 sec at absolute miracle in Tsukuba. NA2 6spd NSX-T is faster than NA1 coupe, I doubt anyone will even challenge this. NSX-R is roughly 2 sec faster than NA1 coupe in Tsukuba from the single lap times.
I welcome any criticism.
I uploaded some videos from the one you requested. Not sure what other portion you need. The 1/4mile and race are already on Youtube I believe. Nothing special.
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