Save your money on Ohlins had the 3 way on my last Track Rat Now going with Moton 2 way :smile:
Also you can lower your spring rate with the Moton's with the extra adjustment.
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Just for fun
- Thread starter TURBO2GO
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Save your money on Ohlins had the 3 way on my last Track Rat Now going with Moton 2 way :smile:
Also you can lower your spring rate with the Moton's with the extra adjustment.
Okay I was just enjoying the discussion I can go on and on but no problem.
Thanks so much for the vids. What track was the first vidoe on?
Please do! It's a shame to spend all that money on speed and none on turns. Plus it was my goal to keep talking/writing until you got the hint and bought a good suspension :wink:
Thanks Jeff. I was going to reccomend Motons as well. With his money why noy:biggrin:
NO WAY!!! you were going to recommend a none-R part? Its because a T will never be a real R... not "balanced"... right? :tongue:
So do you think my car will be faster around a track with the Motons? Or are you still going to go on with your rant?
LoL Well why do we need to model our cars after the R? Besides our chassis are not as rgid as the Rs due to our T roof. Those shocks were designed to go with a lighter car. You can actually get a great set up that would work better on your car than the R coilovers so why not?
I think it would be a great race :biggrin:
Not wanting to jack a thread [and a good one], but anyone know what model white 7 spoke Work wheels on the white NSX-R? Thanks in advance for not killing me.
Carry on.
Carry on.yeah... 100 horsepower versus some super secret bushings... lol...
Yeah and the look on your face after it kicks your ass...priceless:wink:
No problem. Need any other portion, just ask.
Honestly I have no idea on what track that was test on. But the video already gave it a way. 高鷲プル－ビングセンータ。 Honda Takasu providing ground.
Google resulted this:
http://world.honda.com/RandD/takasu_pg/index.html
Now I really don't want to waste any more time on this discussion or prime for that matter, however I do consider these as handling mods, I took these into consideration as well:
BBK
Weight reduction
RT615
NSX-R sway bar
Last but not least, majority of NSX-R sold in Japan come with AC/Stereo. Official weight of the car is 1270kg (2857lbs). The car also does not have spare tire.
No problem. Need any other portion, just ask.
Honestly I have no idea on what track that was test on. But the video already gave it a way. ??????????????Honda Takasu providing ground.
Google resulted this:
http://world.honda.com/RandD/takasu_pg/index.html
Now I really don't want to waste any more time on this discussion or prime for that matter, however I do consider these as handling mods, I took these into consideration as well:
BBK
Weight reduction
RT615
NSX-R sway bar
Last but not least, majority of NSX-R sold in Japan come with AC/Stereo. Official weight of the car is 1270kg (2857lbs). The car also does not have spare tire.
Jason do they have anything showing more of the interior?
I took those into account from the beginning and my last word is that's not nearly enough suspension wise and brake wise.
Thanks again for the vids.
That could only happen if you were driving my car.
From that video:
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V8axJuX2pVA"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V8axJuX2pVA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
Something similar:
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9ELOIDjD4SQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9ELOIDjD4SQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
Last but not least. Closes car to NSX-T that I am aware of.
NSX-R vs NSX-S (Dunlop tire, weight penalty, final drive)
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MyJzu-uScvM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MyJzu-uScvM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
The NSX-R, ultimately, is still a compromise. The super duper aero and specific deflection rates of the bushings and the suspension are all still compromises. They just lean more toward a true race car vs a street car. But it's still a street car and so compromises were used. Honda test, re-tested then tested again (and again, and again, etc.) but the NSX-R isn't the best track car they could have made. It's the best street car they could make for track use.
My point? That an NSX-T could be modded to outperform the *ALMIGHTY* NSX-R. That cannot be argued.
So what we're basically arguing is whether the 60 or so HP (I looked up the HP rating of Procar's NSX-R motors they've gotten and for two different motors they quoted 338 and 340... Prime's search is your friend) can overcome the handling of the NSX-R and it's lighter weight (including wheels), better brakes, aero package (and bushings [hi WingZ:biggrin: ]). Personally, I think the bushings and aero are worth very little in the overall picture, though they're not worthless.
I'd give the nod to Dave's car. 60HP is a lot to overcome. Sure, I know that the NSX-R overcomes that HP deficiency over and over again, but that's against other makes/models. We're comparing to a standard NSX, after all, not a <insert car name here> (I'll let you decide what car name to insert because I don't want this discussion to tangent into a "what's wrong with a <insert car name here>" rant).
BTW, the point of mentioning modding an NSX-R is to illustrate that the delicate balance of the suspension, weight, aero, etc. of the NSX-R is not the absolute best the car can be for the track... it can be improved upon, even over what the boys at Honda did. Got that, WingZ? :biggrin:
J
My point? That an NSX-T could be modded to outperform the *ALMIGHTY* NSX-R. That cannot be argued.
So what we're basically arguing is whether the 60 or so HP (I looked up the HP rating of Procar's NSX-R motors they've gotten and for two different motors they quoted 338 and 340... Prime's search is your friend) can overcome the handling of the NSX-R and it's lighter weight (including wheels), better brakes, aero package (and bushings [hi WingZ:biggrin: ]). Personally, I think the bushings and aero are worth very little in the overall picture, though they're not worthless.
I'd give the nod to Dave's car. 60HP is a lot to overcome. Sure, I know that the NSX-R overcomes that HP deficiency over and over again, but that's against other makes/models. We're comparing to a standard NSX, after all, not a <insert car name here> (I'll let you decide what car name to insert because I don't want this discussion to tangent into a "what's wrong with a <insert car name here>" rant).
BTW, the point of mentioning modding an NSX-R is to illustrate that the delicate balance of the suspension, weight, aero, etc. of the NSX-R is not the absolute best the car can be for the track... it can be improved upon, even over what the boys at Honda did. Got that, WingZ? :biggrin:
J
J
You didn't read my posts did you? You just kinda came in and made up what you wanted to see. I never once said the NSX-R was almighty. It was the NSX-R's suspension and aerodynamics that allowed it to beat those other "more powerful" cars".
Stock NSX suspension is way soft and Daves additional hp would overcome it on the track. Also no one argued that a NSX-T couldn't be modded to surpass an NSX-R it's just that Dave's mods aren't going to do it. I gave great examples of how Daves car could probably pass an NSX-R on a straight but be eaten up and left in the corners so all he's gonna do with his extra power is be playing catch up and then falling behind again. If you track then you know this. Suspension set up is key on the track.
Also notice I said I'm not a NSX-R worshipper just think it's a cool car.
So I got ya!:wink:
Awesome thanks again! I kinda find away to save these.
You didn't read my post, did you? :smile: I never said you said the NSX-R was almighty. Actually in the later posts, you went out of your way to say you *weren't* a NSX-R worshipper... see? I'm paying attention. :wink:
I've tracked only two cars in my past: an AWD Eclipse (a lot) and my NSX (3x). There is no "key" to having a fast car, as your statement suggests. As you've gone out of your way to point out, there is no one facet to making a fast race car. Honda did a great job with the suspension on the NSX-R (apparently... I've never driven one, so I can only go by what those who have driven one say) but it's not like they didn't do a great job on the regular NSX as well. It's not like the regular NSX isn't a capable corner carver in its own right.
We agree that a modded NSX can outperform an NSX-R (as I stated in my first post and as you agreed in your reply)... we're just arguing whether Dave's 60HP (and other upgrades) is enough to overcome the disadvantage his car had when he first bought it.
I think it is... you think it's not.
I'm going to look around the 'net later tonight, but does anyone know what the skidpad numbers are for the -R vs the -T? On paper, we know Dave's car should pull up to (or away from, depending on which side of the debate one is on:tongue: ) the NSX-R. What do the imperical data say about road-holding capabilities?
In theory, we should be able to pick a winner with that data, at least on paper.
Man, Internet racing is fun!
J
"Word play" it's what you imply in bold laters
That's fine I'm always up for a good game Their maybe be no "key" as you put it but there are the basics. You track so you know that weight on a track is every bit as important as hp. On a track 150-200 lbs is very important. Daves added weight puts a drain on his additional hp were he on a track racing and would narrow whatever hp gap between the two. By how much I don't know ,but I would still give the nod to Daves car for outright power. Also Dave says he lost 150 lbs. Where did he lose this weight at? Was it balanced weight loss from front to rear? Racers know this stuff is important! Next up we have aerodynamics. Dave mentioned the hood and spoiler and rear diffuser. Not sure if he was going to do the under body aero dynamics ,but since he didn't mention them we have to go with him not doing them so therefore he doesn't have the full benefits of the wind tunnel testing the NSX-R does and it's greater downforce and hence greater grip.
Base NSX-T suspension is pretty soft on the track. Dave has the larger R sway bar so this helps with roll but since his shocks weren't designed to work with this bar it puts more stress on his tires. Dave has near R compound tires so this helps ,but his breakway will probably be drastic once his passes the tires limits. This is problematic as once a driver gets "uncomfortable" with a car not wanting to push it his lap times will be slower. NSX-R with a suspension tuned to the car and with the "special bushing" your so quick to diss help to provide greater more precise feel. Driver has more confidence in turn and in turns keeping and building more momentum hence faster lap times. You said you track so you know momentum is "key" and the more momentum you keep up your lap times will get faster.
Got me on this? Good:wink:
This is the million dollar question.
No and neither you nor Jason have given me anything compelling enough to change my thinking. Dave tells me "I think" Jason tells me people have done it on video ,but no one with a base NSX-T suspension has done it. He gave a great example of a guy who changed the "suspension" on a an NSX-R and made it faster than the OEM NSX-R. This made sense to me as an individual can tune something to their specific taste especially a skilled driver who says cars suspension isn't doing what he needs to feel comfortable makes changes and goes faster because the car is now in his comfort range.
In theory, we should be able to pick a winner with that data, at least on paper.
Man, Internet racing is fun!
J[/QUOTE]
I'll be interested to see what you find as I'm curious as well and actually posted a thread on this a couple of months back. No one responded:frown:
I have 98 NSX-T stats. It weighed 3136 vs the 3153 of 02+ cars. That car pulled 90g on SO2 tires that are smaller in width than the 02+ wheel tire combo. SO2 is a very sticky tire not as sticky as Daves Falkens ,but definitely not a high performance tire compromise. Can Daves car pull a 1g as it is I honestly don't know and tend not to think so ,but can a NSX-R pull a 1g or more it's highly possible.
Yeah it is fun and hopefully it's making our readers think:biggrin:
Look forward to your reply
P
I just think there is a larger HP difference here than 60. Detleft tested a couple of "R" motors on some dyno across the pond... that is not really anything definitive to me. Too many variables. What IS definitive to me, is that Honda will tell you its THE SAME engine, blanced and blueprinted which rarely adds any significant power but adds to longevity and smoothness. Possibly a different more agressive tune on the ECU. What does this translate to any reasonable person? 10-20 HP MAXIMUM.... Now we are up to 340?! Another few posts and the R motor will be up to 360.... lol.... come on guys... we are balancing some rods and pistons... let's be reasonable. How about the fact that I ran my car on the same dyno in the same shop with the same temps before and after CTSC, DF/Uni intake and full GT-One header, exhaust, and no cats and posted +113 HP. Not once, but on several runs. Now my advantage is down to 30-60 HP?
And does NO ONE here think that the RB BBK is ANY better than R brakes?
And does NO ONE here think that the RB BBK is ANY better than R brakes?
And does NO ONE here think that the RB BBK is ANY better than R brakes?
Brake effectiveness is primarily influenced by tire capability. In addition, there's optimal brake balance, pad, and the relationship of the suspension and how the car manages a braking event.
IMHO, in this hypothetical question, the importance of the suspension is being discounted heavily. But it's still a fun question!
I looked and looked and looked... and I think I've finally run into something that I can't find on the Internet.
I would guess the stock NSX-T to skidpad at about .93 G's and the NSX-R to garner probably 1.0G, maybe a hundredth or two more or less for either of my guesses. Those 5 hundredths or so of added grip (only my guesstimate) is a huge difference and a car near to 1G is a real handling ace. And unlike some other cars, the chassis on the NSXes are very predictable so you can actually use all of the grip it has without being scared (yes, even the standard NSX provides this sure feeling).
Still, I think the 60 added HP is just too much for the NSX-R to make up. WingZ, I understand the importance of weight and suspension (I think everyone on Prime does). I once watched some show or DVD or something... a dude in a 360 CS (most HP of the three), a woman in a fully race-prepared Viper (I think) and a purpose built open-wheel formula car of some sort. As anyone here might guess, the CS got his ass handed to him, the Viper placed 2nd and the purpose built car, with like 1/6th the HP of the CS, won. But with two cars like the -R and -T that are so close to each other in their build, I think 60 HP is just too much.
Oh, and Dave... you might actually have more of an advantage than 60 HP... I just quoted what Detlef said. He also did mention for one of them, that I can remember, that it was some sort of special test motor or something from Honda. Maybe that's why they made so much power? Maybe they were measured at the crank? (the motors were not installed in a car when he took his pics).
Oh, and for those that want to actually do this test: it doesn't have to be here in the states... we don't have NSX-R's here, but they *do* have NSX-Ts in other countries! :tongue:
I think this'll be my last post in this thread. Nothing more to say unless I come across those stats. But I'm not going to spend more time looking. It made this fun conversation frustrating when I couldn't find what I was looking for!
J
I would guess the stock NSX-T to skidpad at about .93 G's and the NSX-R to garner probably 1.0G, maybe a hundredth or two more or less for either of my guesses. Those 5 hundredths or so of added grip (only my guesstimate) is a huge difference and a car near to 1G is a real handling ace. And unlike some other cars, the chassis on the NSXes are very predictable so you can actually use all of the grip it has without being scared (yes, even the standard NSX provides this sure feeling).
Still, I think the 60 added HP is just too much for the NSX-R to make up. WingZ, I understand the importance of weight and suspension (I think everyone on Prime does). I once watched some show or DVD or something... a dude in a 360 CS (most HP of the three), a woman in a fully race-prepared Viper (I think) and a purpose built open-wheel formula car of some sort. As anyone here might guess, the CS got his ass handed to him, the Viper placed 2nd and the purpose built car, with like 1/6th the HP of the CS, won. But with two cars like the -R and -T that are so close to each other in their build, I think 60 HP is just too much.
Oh, and Dave... you might actually have more of an advantage than 60 HP... I just quoted what Detlef said. He also did mention for one of them, that I can remember, that it was some sort of special test motor or something from Honda. Maybe that's why they made so much power? Maybe they were measured at the crank? (the motors were not installed in a car when he took his pics).
Oh, and for those that want to actually do this test: it doesn't have to be here in the states... we don't have NSX-R's here, but they *do* have NSX-Ts in other countries! :tongue:
I think this'll be my last post in this thread. Nothing more to say unless I come across those stats. But I'm not going to spend more time looking. It made this fun conversation frustrating when I couldn't find what I was looking for!
J
yeah well I think the RB system is pretty well balanced... I have not had it installed yet but I am just looking at these rotors side by side and man... its a BIG difference. I am just saying I would think the RB would provide very good feel, balance, and run cool and be fade free. Slightly superior to R brakes. I mean its physics... much larger, better-vented rotor that is 2 piece with no weight penalty.
Thanks Shawn. I can't believe people here who bought the NSX are so hp driven.
Notice Dave completely over looks the suspension part of Ponyboys response to say he "thinks the other brakes are better because their bigger" not taking into account his car weighs more..LOL
Hey Dave did you ask RB if their brakes were designed for a supercharged car? Think they tested them on a supercharged NSX or just a stock NSX:wink:
"Think" is different than "know."
And the NSX-R's brakes are legendary (IMHO) with a lot of history behind it. Plus, you need to figure out how the car reacts when you stomp the brakes w/ those bigger rotors. I think you may have a ton of brake dive b/c the brake balance has been dramatically weighted towards the front. ICBW though.You'll also have to consider greater MOI with the larger rotor of equal weight - which makes it (in general terms) more difficult to accelerate, turn, and stop. However, the extra braking torque from the larger rotor may offset the greater MOI.
I'm a big proponent of BBKs (I have one) but only if they're needed. Unsprung weight trumps all. Now, maybe if you had some carbon rotors.
I still think the NSX-R would come out ahead...fractionally, but still ahead.
Oh, and FWIW, I also think the hp is much greater than 60hp.
Still, you won't be in a position to use all that extra power. You'll definitely lose time under braking and while turning. And very likely lose time on corner exit as well.
This is like a written version of "Dogfights!":biggrin:
Still, you won't be in a position to use all that extra power. You'll definitely lose time under braking and while turning. And very likely lose time on corner exit as well.
This is like a written version of "Dogfights!":biggrin:
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