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Mods for automatic

Hi Guys,

Check out my NSX. Just raced it and ran a 11.3@120mph in full street trim.
Pump fuel, Street tyres (not a soft R compound but Toyo Proxys 4's).
I have a 4000rpm stall converter and it still drives like a standad car until you put your foot down then all hell breaks loose. LOL
It runs a GT35r and has full boost at 4000rpm. No lag at all.

Here are some video's of my car and a photo.

Let me kow what you think of my little beast ????

My car in the Need For Speed Hot Persuit promo
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EwwWAAuNQKc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My car the other night at the track.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HSjGufBjhR0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And people said the Automatic NSX's are slow. Mine isn't. LOL
 

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Hi Guys,

Check out my NSX. Just raced it and ran a 11.3@120mph in full street trim.
Pump fuel, Street tyres (not a soft R compound but Toyo Proxys 4's).
I have a 4000rpm stall converter and it still drives like a standad car until you put your foot down then all hell breaks loose. LOL
It runs a GT35r and has full boost at 4000rpm. No lag at all.

Here are some video's of my car and a photo.

Let me kow what you think of my little beast ????

My car in the Need For Speed Hot Persuit promo
<IFRAME height=315 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EwwWAAuNQKc" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

My car the other night at the track.
<IFRAME height=315 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HSjGufBjhR0" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

And people said the Automatic NSX's are slow. Mine isn't. LOL

very nice, is this with only a high stall converter? how much power are you making?
 
Found my muffler is too small and is restricting boost. I am having a 5psi drop from 6000-8000rpm.
New exhaust system going in now. Will keep you posted.
picture.php

More info here on my car.
http://www.performancegarage.com.au/blog/widebody-turbo-nsx
 
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If I had the 9 grand handy for the Comptech, I'd put it in my auto. If the tranny went, I'd just replace it. I'm very dubious regarding the whole "can't handle 290hp" argument. I just really don't believe that.

Either way, adding a more efficient TC shouldnt stress the tranny, I dont think... Literally everyone adds TCs and better gearing on LS1s.

I've noticed a lot more posts regarding automatic transmissions lately. Reading them and the conjecturing and theories behind the NSX auto tranny weak spots, etc brought back a lot of good memories. I'm surprised no transmission engineer ever posted on Prime? Or I may have missed those posts if so. I was an automatic transmission engineer for Ford for 9 years. But I was a knuckle-dragging gearset engineer and not a calibrator - a calibrator programs how the pumps, solenoids, clutches, bands, etc, perform and know how the transmisison "thinks," they would be good diagnosticians for figuring out various tranny problems I read here, like lost 2nd gears and flared shifts. For those - first thing I'd check is your transmission fluid - read your manual - should do it when the engine is running. Check that it's red and smells "OK" and is not brown and burnt. If it's burnt/foul smelling and dark brown that's a good sign that you may have burnt clutch(es) and/or contamination in your fluid which could cause your hydraulics to not act properly. It takes just one slightly oversize piece of contamination to cause stuck solenoids, failed bearings and seals, or leaky solenoids or clutches, in many cases losing pressure to clutches or bands and causing flared shifts, lost shifts, etc. I assume the NSX auto tranny is like many 4-speeds where 3rd gear is 1:1, which is why many transmissions that lose 1st or 2nd gear still seem to work OK in 3rd because there's no relative movement of planetary gears thru the trans body, maybe with the exception of the final drive ratio for transaxles, and I assume the NSX transaxle has a built-in final drive ratio (i.e. the differential in a RWD car). Also check your auto tranny fluid level (with engine running) and look for any signs of leakage underneath. Low fluid could mean loss of line pressure especially during spirited driving (turning) and thus flared shifts from clutches slipping and could cause further damage all around.

Anyway - throwing out an opinion here - it's a good bet that the detuned auto tranny NSX engine is mostly or solely due to speed's effects on energy and transmission capability. If 8000 rpm is the manual redline and 7000 is the AT's, and since HP is essentially torque x speed, then ratioing redlines tells a story:

7000/8000 * 290 hp = 254 hp

In other words, it's not necessarily true that 250-250 hp is the do-all end-all value selected for optimum the transmission capacity or longevity. Possibly 254 hp is just the result of lowering the max engine speed because of transmission limitations. An automatic transmission is full of a wide array of mechanical rotating parts - planetary gears, needle bearings, one way clutches, spinning clutches, etc. You can "balance" the design of a rotating system like this only so much - generally, bigger parts are stronger and live longer but the bigger it is and the faster you rotate it, the more the forces. So in an auto tranny, a major challenge is the balance of durability (somewhat related to size & weight) vs. cost, packaging, fuel efficiency (for which usually size & weight are bad things), etc. Forces on rotating parts increase by the square of the rotating speed, so something spinning at 8000 rpm vs 7000 rpm is spinning "just" 14% more but the forces are 31% more, which is huge. Also, planetary gearsets work much differently than parallel shaft manuals and have various parts that sometimes spin several times faster than the transmission input shaft. We'd create component speed charts for each auto tranny showing the speeds of all rotating parts in each gear. 8000 to 9000 RPM doesn't seem like a big difference but something spinning 2 or 3 times that sees a big difference.

Another speed consideration is energy put into the clutches - the higher speed you shift under power, the more energy (heat) the clutches must absorb. Think about sliding on a carpet and rug burns - a little faster and a little too often equals lots of pain. That's a main reason why tracking an A/T is a bad idea - all that high speed frequent shifting puts a lot of heat into the clutches and then the tranny fluid, decreasing the tranny fluid life and its ability to function. Transmission fluid is amazing that it acts as the cooling fluid, while providing predictable & repeatable sticky friction behavior for clutch-to-clutch and band-to-steel actuation, while remaining slippery enough to lubricate gears, bearings, shafts, seals, etc., while being the medium to keep the transmission clean by transporting worn friction & steel material but while remaining clean enough to do all this consistently and with longevity, and when operating over a wide temperature range. Crazy!

I agree with the thought of some that the engines may have been tuned differently to play better with an automatic trans. Too peaky of an engine map/curve or ones that change shape drastically over various throttle positions make it difficult to smoothly calibrate an auto trans I believe, but that's a little outside of my experience to comment much on.

A couple other thoughts too regarding Honda's balancing act behind why the "weak" tranny and detuned engine - in general for the auto industry, rarely are automatic transmissions designed and optimized solely for one application. So they have to be flexible: weight conscious for fuel economy for lower-power applications, while being strong enough for higher-power applications, and not costing a lot to customize for the extremes. Like Ken/NSXTASY mentioned, it can sometimes make only so much business sense to develop a fully capable auto trans for a low percentage of slushbox buyers for an already low volume vehicle. But with the NSX being so focused on function, and with it being a clean sheet design, then it's hard to imagine any detuning not being the result of pure physics alone. I'm GUESSING the NSX transaxle was specifically designed for the NSX but because of the transverse engine, they didn't have the ability to package a long, larger and robust transmission behind the engine and down the length of the car center. I can't find much online but I'm guessing the NSX transaxle is a pretty compact piece of kit given the available packaging and the car's focus on low weight, compact size, etc., and was therefore very size and strength limited. There are a LOT of parts to fit into an automatic transmission.

Getting back to modding the engine beyond 252 hp and what the auto trans should be capable of - ignoring any modding talk for a second: just rating a transmission as having a meaningful torque capacity "number" is nearly impossible. A transmission does too much to be able to rate it for a certain power, torque, or speed. The easiest thing possibly would be to rate the trans for speed capability, but you'd have to rate it by gear - some gears could theoretically spin faster than others because different things are spinning in different gears; you'd just need to find the limiting component. But even THAT is difficult because sometimes a particular component's speed capacity is dependent upon lubrication availability and line pressure, and the pump & hydraulic system acts differently at different speeds depending upon various design trade-offs...and each gear could have a different speed capacity...you get the idea. Or you can rate it for max stall input torque (brake pedal down, accelerator down, engine screaming like crazy but transmission zero rotating speed, torque converter at max torque multiplication and making all kinds of heat), which just stating the torque that the transmission can hold when not spinning and is a function of line pressure, clutch sizes, clutch material, torque converter type, and gear/shaft/case strength in 1st gear. Or you could rate a trans for its ability to work behind a particular engine and then after balancing the power input, engine speeds, torque converter selection, etc., you could assign a general torque rating to the trans, but it really wouldn't paint the full picture. The problem with assigning a "number" or capacity to an auto tranny for something as simple as marketing purposes, or for trying to smartly rationalize power upgrades, is that the transmission does too many different things and is a huge balancing act. At the end of the day, we'd all design our individual components to meet certain bounding expected speed, torque, lubrication, temperature, etc. design inputs, but the ONLY way to verify the box's capability was to perform lots of durability tests. First on the test bench by component, then in a dyno, then in the various prototype vehicles. Excruciatingly annoyingly, sometimes a given trans would behave extremely differently in a minivan vs. in a passenger car, or in passenger car A vs. passenger car B, because of all the various different system interactions, engine characteristics (torque curve, speed ranges), vehicle weight, vehicle cooling system capability, etc. No doubt you could probably add a lot more torque into the NSX auto tranny if your main goal was straight line speed, let's say. But perhaps that'd be a hugely risky proposition if you planned to race and exercise those clutches for hours.

Anyway - I was surprised to see so many recent auto tranny posts and all the talk of transmission capacity and trying to justify what the transmission could do brought back some good memories. I was listening to click & clack during breakfast and just kept typing. No doubt the NSX auto trans powertrain could probably take a little more but good luck how to implement that "little more" in a way that will last a long time.
 
^^^^^ What he said. ^^^^^


:biggrin:

Hey Neal! How's my second favorite P-town?

Ah, that Pittsburgher who posted above you is FOS.

I thought about something after my post - the quick example above assumed max HP at max RPM. The wiki engine curve below shows that max HP is around 1000 rpm below max RPM but was good enough to illustrate the concept. I'd really like to see 3.0L AT & MT engine curves if anyone has them?

The HP peak occurs at 7100 rpm in the 3.2L curve below and I can only assume that the 3.0L auto tranny engine has a similar flat curve that drops off around 1000 rpm below max rpm.

For the 3.2L below:
HP = 215 lb-ft * 7100 rpm * (2*pi/33,000) = ~291 hp

Assuming similar 215 lb-ft torque at an RPM around 1000 less than max rpm for the 3.0L auto tranny:
HP = 215 * 6100 * (2*pi/33,000) = ~250 hp

or 6100/7100 * 291 hp = ~250 hp which I was roughly estimating earlier.

I know I'm mixing and matching 3.2 MT & 3.0 AT engines... But I'd like to know though just out of curiosity what the 3.0L MT vs AT engine curves are, and how much of a different curve the AT 3.0L has - whether its max HP is about 1000 rpm below max rpm and with a completely different performance curve or - if the curve is nearly the same as the MT 3.0L just with an rpm cutoff at 7000 rpm. I don't know much about engine design or else perhaps that answer would be obvious.

If the AT 3.0L was pretty much like a MT 3.0L MT but just rev-limited at 7000 rpm, I would think my #'s above would fall apart. I.e., that both would have 290 hp at around 7000 rpm. But then it would make things more interesting for the debate on whether a 3.0L AT NSX converted to MT would behave nearly the same as each other between 0-7000 rpm, vs. the thought that the 252 hp 3.0L AT engine isn't as powerful overall as the MT 3.0L engine.

Enough of this for today. Time to go play outside.

97NSXPowerCurve.gif
 
I thought redline on the automatic NSX is 7500 RPM...


I enjoyed the midnight stroll down to the dingy-old smelly garage to peek under the hover-round-snuggle-cover. :confused: Had to turn on the pkg lights to see it ... .

Yea, 7500. :smile:
 
I thought redline on the automatic NSX is 7500 RPM...

Thanks. I didn't know for sure and was just going off what someone said earlier in an AT thread about a 7000 rpm redline. I guess I could have been tricky a looked at pictures of AT NSX interiors in the FS section. Nonetheless all I was trying to show was that the seemingly large HP difference of 254 vs 270-290 is likely mostly a numbers thing due to engine torque curve shape at WOT and the RPM/torque used to calculate max HP.

In practical terms: a 254 HP AT NSX might mistakenly appear to be a dog on paper when compared to a 290 HP MT NSX and may be part of the reasons for grief or jokes over AT's. But if the engine torque curves are relatively similar than really it's just a numbers game where both cars have essentially similar motors and similar baddassability for the 99%+ of time they're used by most owners, way under high RPMs and way under WOT conditions. In fact often the driveability feel under all the part-throttle positions (way under WOT), where both motors may be essentially the same, are what really gives a driver that performance feel sensation. Here, torque converter selection plays a major role for AT performance feel, balancing performance feel for efficiency.

So even if seeing 290 on paper may give some owners a warmer fuzzy than 254, I'm willing to bet that most owners probably rarely "actually see" 290 HP @ WOT, screaming all the way to redline very seldom during their entire ownership, so essentially they're spending 1% of their time with a 290 HP vehicle and 99% of their time with a 200-250 HP vehicle. It's kind of like saying a production car that's limited to 155 mph but capable of 200 is so way less better than the same car with no limit. An AT NSX is a pretty awesome ride IMHO, and infinitely much better than my current NSX. :) It just may not be an ideal track car, but I'd guess most AT owners take their driving intentions into account when buying.

I'd still love to see 3.0 MT, 3.0 AT, and 3.2 MT engine curves if anyone has them, from Acura at RFOB and not owner dyno runs at rear wheel.
 
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