Need some advise NSX vs. GT3 or GT3RS

[brandonsan]

I jumped the border and wars; I'm in Afghanistan now. You aren't getting rid of that car. You've been talking about it since I've known you. :biggrin:

I'm glad to see you are staying safe. I know I have mentioned selling it before but I would sell it if the offer was right. I haven't really tried to sell it because I do not want to deal with tire kickers on a car that I like so much. How long have you been gone ?

 

[01a4man]

I'm glad to see you are staying safe. I know I have mentioned selling it before but I would sell it if the offer was right. I haven't really tried to sell it because I do not want to deal with tire kickers on a car that I like so much. How long have you been gone ?

6 years and counting. I am figuring another 1 to 2 and I'm done. I said that 3 years ago though. :tongue:

 

[Floyd]

Hey DXD,
I was wondering if you could help me figure out what color I should paint my car.....:tongue:

I have both an 02' NSX and an 04' GT3 (996). If you decide to go the GT3 route I would go with the 996 model as it was the first high performace "track version" since the 73' RS and will likely appreciate more for several reasons. Much lower production than the current models (somewhere under 2,000 units) whereas the new ones surpass that number yearly. Also there are no elctronic "nannies" such as traction control etcc...- it is a true no nonsense sports car. The rear wing looks WAY better as well : )

With all that said I would still buy the NSX. The GT3 is fast and very rare (like the NSX) however it still does not put a smile on my face like the NSX does even after all these years! You will get bored with the GT3 afeter a while while you still feel special driving the NSX every time.

I picked up an 87' Carrera and man is that car a blast! Weighs 2,600 lbs and has 217 HP. It boogies pretty good! I would pick up the NSX and with the savings but an older 911 to get the best of both worlds. 55k? for the NSX and a nice 87-89 (best tranny) for about 25k and now you have two cars that are rare and appreciating. I get more thumbs up for the 87' 911 than I do for the GT3!

Good luck either way

 

[NSXLuvr]

Great topic.

The NSX is a great car but it is absolutely not in the same league as the GT3!!! Sorry.... I know that sounds harsh but it is the truth. I have owned my GT3 for 4.5 years and absolutely love it. My 997 GT3 brakes much better(rear engine placement and Huge PCCB brakes help), handles better(GT3 suspension and tire technology), Rotates around tight corners much better(rear weight bias), has Much MUCH better steering feed back!! I havent even brought up the 8400 RPM redlne or the 385 RWHP!! The block is bullet proof. Heck the turbo versions of the same block handle 600 Hp on stock internals. I haven't had any reliability issues either.

It's a much better road trip car too. It has 22 cubic feet of trunk space. Don't get me wrong, I love my NSX but it was designed in the late 80's. You can't seriousy expect it to compete with a 911 that has gone through 4 evolutions in the same time period. If I had to pick between the two... I would pick the GT3! Sorry.

 

[BioBanker]

It's amazing we are making this comparison at all. What other car designed in the late 80's can you talk about buying versus a new GT3-RS? If the NSX wasn't so good the comparison would just be nuts.

But that is just it, it IS a nutty comparison.

 

[cheungms]

Wow such a great thread. I'm going from a Lotus Elise to the next toy, and I'm at a cross-roads between the NSX and 996 (TT or GT3, not sure which yet). Unfortunately, I'm not that far along in my search and have yet to drive either, but these are great arguments for both vehicles.

Note regarding the braking: it's not just the brake size that is causing the GT3 to outbrake you, it's the rear bias that reduces brake fade / improves brake balance in the GT3. I'm sure the brake size and playing a factor, but dynamics of the vehicle are completely different. You can outbrake and get on the gas faster, resulting in better lap times (most skilled 911 drivers use the rear weight bias to "swing" the rear around a corner...it's also how most unskilled drivers end up wrapping their 911's around a tree).

 

[Honcho]

Just my 2 cents, but you're really talking about apples and oranges. The GT3 is designed and marketed as a weekend track car, not a daily driver. Porsche built this car for customers who want a plug and play machine to use on their local track days. No mods, suspension, etc required. Just turn the key and go. That is its allure. It's barebones, loud, rides like a pickup truck, but on a smooth tarmac road course, it is a BEAST.

The NSX is not and never was this kind of car. It is a liveable sports car that is competent on a track. Competent, not dominant. A large part of the NSX design philosophy was to make it comfortable. Therefore, if you are looking for a no-holds barred track toy, the NSX should not be on your list. I would suggest adding the Lotus Exige to your list.

A better comparison in my opinion is NSX-R to GT3. The Type R is a track-focused version of the NSX. Being in the US, we have to modify our stock NSXs to reach this level. I would take a stripped out, fully equipped NSX-R clone over a GT3.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Great topic.

The NSX is a great car but it is absolutely not in the same league as the GT3!!! Sorry.... I know that sounds harsh but it is the truth. I have owned my GT3 for 4.5 years and absolutely love it. My 997 GT3 brakes much better(rear engine placement and Huge PCCB brakes help), handles better(GT3 suspension and tire technology), Rotates around tight corners much better(rear weight bias), has Much MUCH better steering feed back!! I havent even brought up the 8400 RPM redlne or the 385 RWHP!! The block is bullet proof. Heck the turbo versions of the same block handle 600 Hp on stock internals. I haven't had any reliability issues either.

It's a much better road trip car too. It has 22 cubic feet of trunk space. Don't get me wrong, I love my NSX but it was designed in the late 80's. You can't seriousy expect it to compete with a 911 that has gone through 4 evolutions in the same time period. If I had to pick between the two... I would pick the GT3! Sorry.

Yes, but you have a stock NSX, a car that responds incredibly to mods, so yes in that comparison I would agree with you. That is not the question here. No one is saying that a 2011 GT3-RS is not an improved car over a stock NSX.

But that is just it, it IS a nutty comparison.

And you Dave, are talking about a track perspective, a performance-only perspective, and yes, an NSX would need a lot of mods to be in the same category as a GT3-RS. But that is not what the OP is asking, and I want to really bring this dicussion away a bit from the performance only aspect and to a more real world situation.

Do we need to know which car is faster around a track? I think everyone knows. Is that why you buy cars? I mean I think a Z06 would be as fast if not faster around the track. So why aren't we talking about IT? Overall car ownership experience is not the same as what you do on a track. Or... I might add... even HOW you do it on a track. I'd rather be slower on the track, because I do it to have fun. Not to be fast and say "oh did you see I out-accelerated that car on the straight". We all know an NSX in the right hands can easily be faster than a GT-3 in the wrong ones, videos above show. The cars both have enough performance to be quick.

I drove 3 997's before I bought my NSX. C2S, C4S, and a turbo. I also drove a few Caymans, which I liked slightly better. I am in no way putting this car down. It is fantastic in every iterration. But what is the overall ownership experience like? The two rear seats is something you wanted. Youa lso had an NSX you tracked for years, and I know you started to get bored of it.

No matter what the GT-3's performance is on a track, the overall experience, the fun factor, is something else. I just had a GT-R owner tell me he owned 3 NSX's and now has a GT-R and that he really felt the NSX was a more fun car. That is a stock NSX. The OP is talking about spending GT3-RS money on an NSX fully modified. Sit an a 997 and tell me how that feels compared to the drivng position in an NSX. And a 997's is really good to begin with. The NSX is a fun car. A properly modified NSX is just a joy. Is it better than a GT3? I don't know, I think much of that is personal. For me, the answer is yes. So when you look at that overall experience, and you take into a account that 60K will get you a 2005 NSX... and that leaves you $30K for mods... to make the car how YOU like it to be, it is not a nutty comparison at all. And that is what the OP is asking.

Ideal for him would be to drive a GT-3RS and a fully modded NSX back to back for a month... and see which he likes the experience of better.

 

[bfrank1972]

Ideal for him would be to drive a GT-3RS and a fully modded NSX back to back for a month... and see which he likes the experience of better.

I wish I had these kind of dilemmas

 

[stuntman]

DRIVE A GT3 and GT3RS -then decide from there!

Maybe you like Porsche's (especially GT3) rich racing heritage or the fact that the GT3 is a homologation special, and homologation specials of any car are always awesome, but the NSX did have a lot of success in Japan's SUPER GT (JGTC) even before they lost most of the original unibody and went longitudinal motor configurations.

If both cars produced the same power and torque curves with the same rubber size, rating and brakes then on the turn my nod would go towards the NSX due to the better weight dist while turning.

Of course we'l never see a NSX with the same size brakes and tires, etc. as the GT3.....

Note regarding the braking: it's not just the brake size that is causing the GT3 to outbrake you, it's the rear bias that reduces brake fade / improves brake balance in the GT3. I'm sure the brake size and playing a factor, but dynamics of the vehicle are completely different. You can outbrake and get on the gas faster, resulting in better lap times (most skilled 911 drivers use the rear weight bias to "swing" the rear around a corner...it's also how most unskilled drivers end up wrapping their 911's around a tree).

I'm pretty sure both the NSX and the GT3 have a 40/60 weight distribution. A lot of the braking performance is also dependent on the suspension geometry of the car and how it loads all 4 tires under braking. The NSX does use a decent amount of rear brakes but even with the NA2 ABS system, the Porche's ABS is far superior.

As far as rotor size goes, there are a 14" front & rear brake package from Performance Friction for the NSX with a multi-pad caliper that's pretty trick. It's on the FXMD Time Attack record holding NSX and i'll have a set on my car soon. (The GT3 has ~ 15" front 13.7" rear rotors). Also keep in mind the NSX was originally designed with a 205 15" front wheel, so the front fender wells are tiny compared to the Porsche with 19's and 15" rotors. But with aftermarket parts you can get as much performance as you want.

You can fit 235s under the front of an NSX (same as GT3) and i'm not sure but I think you can get a 295 or 305 under the stock rear fender (like a GT3), but a lot comes down to balance of the platform and spring rates.

**At the end of the day, drive all of them, figure out what YOUR needs are, what appeals to you the most, if you will daily or track it, and go from there.

Having driven many GT3s, I'm pretty confident a 450whp NSX with 235/275 R-comps, a competent suspension & brakes, NSX-R bodywork, and the JDM gear ratio and a OS Giken LSD should have no issues with a GT3 or GT3RS on track (ya I think the NSXs chassis is that good). While it's not fair because it's 450whp vs. 450bhp, I feel it shouldn't be a problem.

If someone with a GT3/RS would like to test this, let me know. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong but worst case it would be close but I still might have to give the hand to the NSX.


The GT3 is an awesome car, and the RS is even more rare, beautiful, higher appreciation, wide-fenders, etc... If you have the funds I would jump right to an RS over a GT3 especially in this economy. From an investment point of view the NSX will be a loss compared to the Porsche -which has a dry sump!

While the GT3 is awesome, IMO its hard to beat a turbo NSX with a reliable well designed system and tune. This is why i'm building a turbo NSX. It's not for everyone but then again everyone has different needs or intended uses.


0.02

 

[TURBO2GO]

BTW did anyone see Motor Trend's best driver's car 2011:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1109_2011_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/viewall.html

1. Ferrari 458
2. Nissan GT-R
3. Porsche 911 GT3-RS
4. Porsche Cayman

Another thing to consider, the 991 is around the corner. 997 is already old. I'd wait if I was going that route.

 

[topgunsnsx]

BTW did anyone see Motor Trend's best driver's car 2011:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1109_2011_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/viewall.html

1. Ferrari 458
2. Nissan GT-R
3. Porsche 911 GT3-RS
4. Porsche Cayman

Another thing to consider, the 991 is around the corner. 997 is already old. I'd wait if I was going that route.

Good read. The GT-R scored so high, not sure I'd taken it over the Porsche or LFA. Best part was when they mentioned the 458 as a potential game changer, in the same mold the NSX was. Come on Honda...

 

[Ric]

imo, the Honda that we knew it ( the one that dominated F1, champcar, invented VTEC (ok, not really, sort of), produced cool cars like the NSX, integra and on), is dead. They couldn't even hacked it in F1 the last time around. The competition has passed them by.

No I don't plan to sell my NSX anytime soon.:smile:

Good read. The GT-R scored so high, not sure I'd taken it over the Porsche or LFA. Best part was when they mentioned the 458 as a potential game changer, in the same mold the NSX was. Come on Honda...

 

[BATMANs]

...... invented VTEC.......

Alfa Romeo was the first manufacturer to use a variable valve timing system in production cars. The 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 L had a mechanical VVT system in SPICA fuel injected cars sold in the USA. Later this was also used in the 1983 Alfetta 2.0 Quadrifoglio Oro models as well as other cars. The system was engineered by Ing Giampaolo Garcea in the 1970s

Later Nissan used this technology in 300ZX in 1987. However it was a mechanical system and even Alfa-Romeo didn't recognize the importance of the technology they invented... that's what they say.

After that Honda engineer Ikuo Kajitani did more research and developed the existing system the they came up with VTEC engine in 1989 Integra model. This is just an improvement of previous variable valve timing used by Alfa Romeo and not a complete revolution in the technology.

 

[e.pie]

Alfa Romeo was the first manufacturer to use a variable valve timing system in production cars. The 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 L had a mechanical VVT system in SPICA fuel injected cars sold in the USA. Later this was also used in the 1983 Alfetta 2.0 Quadrifoglio Oro models as well as other cars. The system was engineered by Ing Giampaolo Garcea in the 1970s

Later Nissan used this technology in 300ZX in 1987. However it was a mechanical system and even Alfa-Romeo didn't recognize the importance of the technology they invented... that's what they say.

After that Honda engineer Ikuo Kajitani did more research and developed the existing system the they came up with VTEC engine in 1989 Integra model. This is just an improvement of previous variable valve timing used by Alfa Romeo and not a complete revolution in the technology.

VTEC introduced multiple cam profiles in to the mix though. That's the main reason Honda's engines have been able to rev so high while still maintaining drivable characteristics at low RPM.

 

[tbromley]

This is a tough one. The GT3 is a great car and like Bfrank said it's not AT ALL the same engine as the standard 997 or 996. It's the real deal and based on Porsches race technology and engines - totally different. So a GT3 is a great car.

A modded NSX is most likely another nice car - but I really like the idea that the GT3 is "naturally aspirated". If you are deciding between a highly modded NSX or a stock GT3 for track purposes and even some street us - I'd get the GT3 just because it's the best track car and it's a great car - period. You'd have to make the NSX good enough to compete with it. I wouldn't do that anyway.

I like naturally aspirated - I love the garrage of bx - white NSX late model, white 996 GT3 a white 87 911 coupe - great selection. All naturally aspirated like the factory built them.

If you're going new - then get a new GT3 - no brainer. If you are going used then spread it around and get more for the money. I bet you can get a 996 GT3 and late model NSX for around 120k - just a guess but damn close. If all you want is one car and you are not touring in the car - the late model NSX is a great all round car. For a track car and that's the main attraction - get the GT3 - in my opinion there is no way I would highly mod an NSX over a real GT3 - no way.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Modding is part of the fun. If I bought a GT-3... hell if you gave me a Zonda F... after a while if I saw an ad for a mod... I'd be checking it out. LOL

You can get a low milage 05 NSX in the 60's. That's a long way away from a 997 RS. Almost 50%.

 

[01a4man]

Ideal for him would be to drive a GT-3RS and a fully modded NSX back to back for a month... and see which he likes the experience of better.

Where have you seen a 2005 for $60k without 50k miles? May I use your NSX for the test month? :biggrin:

Having driven many GT3s, I'm pretty confident a 450whp NSX with 235/275 R-comps, a competent suspension & brakes, NSX-R bodywork, and the JDM gear ratio and a OS Giken LSD should have no issues with a GT3 or GT3RS on track (ya I think the NSXs chassis is that good). While it's not fair because it's 450whp vs. 450bhp, I feel it shouldn't be a problem.

I do not disagree with you stuntman. Everything is subjective when it comes to cars. What works for some doesn't work for others? To compare a 2011 GT3-RS to essentially a 80s platform vehicle that has changed only slightly during its 14 year run is not really a fair comparison, but was never really my intent.

Once again this is totally subjective, but at what point do you draw the line and say spending $30k or so (estimated figure only) on a vehicle to bring it up to speed with a vehicle you could've purchased for either the same vested amount or less? There is no doubt that even a civic could be modified to the point that it will outperform Lamborghinis in one way or another. The question is how much are you spend to accomplish this.

As I have stated before, I LOVED my NSX and miss the hell out of it, but I find myself running that calculator in my head hearing the cha-chings all while asking is this truly worth it. When it comes time to sell sure...most of all the modifications can be taken off, re-sold and I can sell the car stock. There is additional cost to complete this as well. Not to mention the fact that when you modify vehicles, subjectivity rules and more often than not, affects resale. Prime example below; this GT3-RS has been up for sale for a while and one could probably obtain a great deal on it due to its previous owners subjectivity.

http://inventory.eurocaroc.com/web/used/Porsche-911-2007-Costa-Mesa-California/919927/

This car is one of one guaranteeing exclusivity, but why has it not sold in months?

In the case of the two best NSX-R conversions (Anil and Ryan) I've seen on Prime; both sold for fairly high dollar amounts, but what was lost? It is understood when modifying a vehicle that it is more a labor of love than anything else. Just as fat chicks find boyfriends, civics modified with lamborghini doors, GTR body kits and neon or strobe lights are loved by someone.

I am not sure if me getting older has anything to do with this change in perspective, but whatever the hell it is I wish it would go away so I can buy a damn car! :biggrin:

I really appreciate everyones feedback though. You all have given me a lot to think about.

 

[NSX167]

Save your money for another 1 or 2 years, and lots of nice cars are coming out.

 

[01a4man]

Modding is part of the fun. If I bought a GT-3... hell if you gave me a Zonda F... after a while if I saw an ad for a mod... I'd be checking it out. LOL

LOL,

True, it is certainly some kind of addiction!

 

[nsxot1c]

Really depends what you're after.

Sounds like you MISS your NSX alot. The GT3 will not give you the same exotic feel. A worked/Turbo NSX will compare performance wise with the GT3 for less money. To me, for you it sounds like the best of both worlds.

I'd go NSX... mainly because where I live/drive (Westchester NY, Stamford/Greenwich CT there are Porsches everywhere, they are SO average. GT3 included.)

 

[TURBO2GO]

There's the GT3-RS 4.0 now, then next year there will be a 991 version, then there will be a special version of that, and this year's GT3RS quickly falls off its pedestal and is no longer that special.

Right now everyone posting here is looking at this mean machine but it's going to age quickly. That's how all cars are. Everything I ever owned... the new version comes out and is a lot better and you get that dreaded feeling again... your car is now old.

I haven't had that feeling with the NSX since I bought it.

Rarity.... do you guys have any idea what people pay for rarity? I still remember telling the Aston saleman about the horrific depreciation and he said "they make 4000 of these a year. It's rare. There's a price to be paid for that". When was the last time you saw a yellow 02+ NSX?

 

[R13]

If you're going to live on a racetrack, get the GT-3. If it's a weekend/part time track car, I'd go NSX.

+1

The GT3 and the RS more-so is less of a question mark if you want to track the car hard with slicks or whatever. They're already dry sumped (so no oiling issues) and you can fit plenty of tire under them without worrying about rubbing anywhere. If I just wanted a speed implement, it's hard to beat a Porsche GT3. Just make sure and keep on top of the rear main seal...if that's even still a problem on the current generations.

I've spent enough time with a 996 GT2 to know that I prefer the way that my NSX (on KWV3s) rides and feels on the street. The seats are better, the ride is less harsh, and the steering is more tactile. The NSX also turns more heads when talking about the general public. If you don't know what a GT2/3 is, then it's just another Porsche with some stickers on it.

 

[kookoo4nsx]

So what exactly would it take to have a 20 year old NSX to compete with a GT3?


For the money you could pick up a nice 1991-1994 needing maintenance for about 26k. Here is what I would do(in theory) to compete.

A) Motor: you could go 3 ways here. Goal would be 400rwhp.
1) SC
2) Angus Turbo
3) Stroker with ITB's. (most money)

B) Suspension KW V3's, type S or Type R

C) Remove Spare tire, tool kit, Stereo, Engine hatch, 30lb battery, lighter wheels. Save 100lbs.

D) Brakes. Go big bucks brembo or stoptech or simply new slotted rotors and race pads. (last option cheep)

E) Clutch and light weight flywheel.

F) rear toe link thingees and front braces.


I think the above ideas can at least propell the NSX into a situation where the same driver on the same day on the same course could possibly turn in better numbers with the NSX.

Any other ideas? (Perhaps this reply should have been a new topic all together)

 

[TURBO2GO]

It would require a WHOLE LOT more than what you have listed to do that.

And I doubt the OP would want to get a 1991 NSX, I know I wouldn't. If I was considering a 100K car, I'd want a low milage new NSX. He doesn't want a project car.