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quicker steering ratio??
- Thread starter supergreen125
- Start date
I've been looking to do a quicker rack on my STI for the track. There are good reviews out there of q-rack. Given how simple the NSX manual rack is, perhaps someone who is interested could ring them and see if the NSX aftermarket interests them. I haven't bought a rack from them yet since I can't afford anything in Canadian Dollars now. :frown:
I also found this, an obscure post from awhile back. I'm not sure what happened to the idea.
As for having EPS and quick steering too? Buy a different car.
BTW, I have a spare PS rack available (slight squeek) after having installed a manual rack on my '96. If anyone reads this who can do repairs on the EPS rack, PM me?:smile:
I also found this, an obscure post from awhile back. I'm not sure what happened to the idea.
As for having EPS and quick steering too? Buy a different car.
BTW, I have a spare PS rack available (slight squeek) after having installed a manual rack on my '96. If anyone reads this who can do repairs on the EPS rack, PM me?:smile:
Hi,
I just read this thread.
I’ve been building a house and had no time to go further with the steering rack thing from 2005. Also, I had very little feedback at the time so I put it on the back burner.
I have had experience with quicker racks before, I had a prototype made for my 91 NSX manual and tested it. It was very nice and did what I made it for, namely catching the snap back steer while sliding. The rack was not hardened etc, so I used it only to test and then removed it when I started building my house.
1) high speed stability is NOT and issue, it felt exactly the same as a normal NSX rack, up to 240kph. Nicer actually. And Ferraris and stuff have quicker racks too and they are faster than the NSX. I believe Honda made it a low ratio for easier parking since they knew most of their customers would be in the US. And most people don’t slide their car anyway, although that one time when it catches you out, a quicker rack could save you thousands in body repair. That’s why I started this.
2) parking was actually EASIER. Harder to turn by 5kg force on each hand but because it was much quicker, it made it easier to get into a parking place without all the hand and arm flapping of the stock rack. Especially parallel parking. So parking was easier/quicker/nicer overall. Very much so, not just a little.
The cost was an issue.
I calculated about $US1900 (old 2005 US dollars, I don’t know about now) each for a complete rebuilt rack with new bushings and everything. Old rack housing needed as an exchange core.
That price included shipping to your door in the US and covered any customs charges and tax and shipping and packing, everything.
You would pay for it and also a deposit for the core, I would send you the new rack complete, rebuilt with new bushings and quick rack, you would install it, then you would send me your old core and I would refund the core charge.
No down time for your car.
Then you would deliver your complete old rack/housing to an address in Los Angeles or Belgium. Your choice.
My plan was I would even keep your old rack for a month to send back to you if you didn’t like the new one minus an admin charge or something.
Another issue was the bump stops, these were really difficult to fit in there, I designed them to be adjustable (stock are not adjustable) so:
a) for less turning for people with wide tyres would rub their tyre while turning sharp in the parking lot while people were looking. It restricted the movement by up to 15mm rack movement on each side. Threaded, so 0mm to -15mm.
b) for more movement, I managed to get +6mm more rack movement for slightly tighter turns for people with skinny tyres like I have (stock). Also threaded for 0 to +6mm.
c) I did not finalise the bump stop design because of engineering reasons (very tight fit) and didn’t have time to solve the problem. But I considered the bump stop thing to be somewhat important as a sales item. To sell more. Even to people who don’t know what a quick rack is.
I have a little more time now, and then I read this thread.
Quaife in the UK has my parts and drawings there and is waiting for me to pay them about £2000 ($US 4000) to start. When I pay them, they start on a batch of LHD non-power steering quick racks and pinions. Quaife make all kinds of racing gears. The engineering design and drawings are already done, by me and them. Ratio about 2.5 turns lock to lock or about 2.8 turns lock to lock (depending on what I decide) instead of the about 3.6 stock.
I have sourced the other things like bushings already.
To continue, I need an idea of about how many I could sell, to at least break even and recoup my costs. House building is a real money sucker, and I am running out of money.
I would buy 1. If I could sell about 19 more, LHD (manual), I would do it this week.
After that would come the RHD (manual) racks for Japan and England.
Power steering racks; I don’t know, I have not been able to get my hands on one to look at, even a broken one, but what John says is kind of what I came up against too although I have not actually investigated it hands on. So I may be wrong.
And since I am getting tired of the somewhat difficult parking (getting older), even with the stock rack, I considered several of the new aftermarket electric assists available (then). These were user programmable. So my idea was to try to fit one to a non-power steering rack and programme it to help during parking…I didn’t get any further with that, no time, and anyway it would be difficult to add-on because of space.
So next I thought why not a rack with quicker steering from another car (almost all other cars have a quicker steering ratio than the NSX).
Sacrilege?
Any ideas?
Peter
I just read this thread.
I’ve been building a house and had no time to go further with the steering rack thing from 2005. Also, I had very little feedback at the time so I put it on the back burner.
I have had experience with quicker racks before, I had a prototype made for my 91 NSX manual and tested it. It was very nice and did what I made it for, namely catching the snap back steer while sliding. The rack was not hardened etc, so I used it only to test and then removed it when I started building my house.
1) high speed stability is NOT and issue, it felt exactly the same as a normal NSX rack, up to 240kph. Nicer actually. And Ferraris and stuff have quicker racks too and they are faster than the NSX. I believe Honda made it a low ratio for easier parking since they knew most of their customers would be in the US. And most people don’t slide their car anyway, although that one time when it catches you out, a quicker rack could save you thousands in body repair. That’s why I started this.
2) parking was actually EASIER. Harder to turn by 5kg force on each hand but because it was much quicker, it made it easier to get into a parking place without all the hand and arm flapping of the stock rack. Especially parallel parking. So parking was easier/quicker/nicer overall. Very much so, not just a little.
The cost was an issue.
I calculated about $US1900 (old 2005 US dollars, I don’t know about now) each for a complete rebuilt rack with new bushings and everything. Old rack housing needed as an exchange core.
That price included shipping to your door in the US and covered any customs charges and tax and shipping and packing, everything.
You would pay for it and also a deposit for the core, I would send you the new rack complete, rebuilt with new bushings and quick rack, you would install it, then you would send me your old core and I would refund the core charge.
No down time for your car.
Then you would deliver your complete old rack/housing to an address in Los Angeles or Belgium. Your choice.
My plan was I would even keep your old rack for a month to send back to you if you didn’t like the new one minus an admin charge or something.
Another issue was the bump stops, these were really difficult to fit in there, I designed them to be adjustable (stock are not adjustable) so:
a) for less turning for people with wide tyres would rub their tyre while turning sharp in the parking lot while people were looking. It restricted the movement by up to 15mm rack movement on each side. Threaded, so 0mm to -15mm.
b) for more movement, I managed to get +6mm more rack movement for slightly tighter turns for people with skinny tyres like I have (stock). Also threaded for 0 to +6mm.
c) I did not finalise the bump stop design because of engineering reasons (very tight fit) and didn’t have time to solve the problem. But I considered the bump stop thing to be somewhat important as a sales item. To sell more. Even to people who don’t know what a quick rack is.
I have a little more time now, and then I read this thread.
Quaife in the UK has my parts and drawings there and is waiting for me to pay them about £2000 ($US 4000) to start. When I pay them, they start on a batch of LHD non-power steering quick racks and pinions. Quaife make all kinds of racing gears. The engineering design and drawings are already done, by me and them. Ratio about 2.5 turns lock to lock or about 2.8 turns lock to lock (depending on what I decide) instead of the about 3.6 stock.
I have sourced the other things like bushings already.
To continue, I need an idea of about how many I could sell, to at least break even and recoup my costs. House building is a real money sucker, and I am running out of money.
I would buy 1. If I could sell about 19 more, LHD (manual), I would do it this week.
After that would come the RHD (manual) racks for Japan and England.
Power steering racks; I don’t know, I have not been able to get my hands on one to look at, even a broken one, but what John says is kind of what I came up against too although I have not actually investigated it hands on. So I may be wrong.
And since I am getting tired of the somewhat difficult parking (getting older), even with the stock rack, I considered several of the new aftermarket electric assists available (then). These were user programmable. So my idea was to try to fit one to a non-power steering rack and programme it to help during parking…I didn’t get any further with that, no time, and anyway it would be difficult to add-on because of space.
So next I thought why not a rack with quicker steering from another car (almost all other cars have a quicker steering ratio than the NSX).
Sacrilege?
Any ideas?
Peter
- Joined
- 12 December 2006
- Messages
- 630
I do not know exactly the setup of our rack and pinion. But in an 86 corolla, I was able to buy the "Quick Steer Kit" from Quaife which made my steering tight and fast, from 3.5 lock to lock to 2.5. All I had to do is remove the MANUAL steering rack, and replace it with the Quaife steering rack and replaced the pinion as well.
I checked quaife's website, they do not have anything for our cars. But they didn't have one for corollas either and yet we were able to get a group buy. I paid about $180 for mine. Maybe someone is willing to contact quaife?
Here's their website.
http://www.quaife.co.uk/USA
I can ask a favor from my friend as he was the sole distributor of Quaife products for the 86 corollas for a while.
niM
I checked quaife's website, they do not have anything for our cars. But they didn't have one for corollas either and yet we were able to get a group buy. I paid about $180 for mine. Maybe someone is willing to contact quaife?
Here's their website.
http://www.quaife.co.uk/USA
I can ask a favor from my friend as he was the sole distributor of Quaife products for the 86 corollas for a while.
niM
Since driving an Mazda MX5, i have to agree.
Id love to have a ratio close to that in the NSX. :tongue:
If we did a group buy, what do you think the per-unit cost would be? I hope the $1900 you quoted was for just one demo unit.
- Joined
- 12 December 2006
- Messages
- 630
Hello guys,
Good news!! Quaife UK is interested in doing R&D and production of the Quick Steer Kit for the NSX application.
The QSR quick ratio rack and pinion gear set is perhaps the most underrated performance part around. The Quaife rack and pinion gears simply replace the existing pieces inside your stock steering rack housing. More rapid steering response is felt with an average of 25 percent reduction in ratio, resulting in fewer turns lock-to-lock: this translates into much quicker steering and turn in at the cost of a slight increase in effort. The QSR is a must for autocross, drifting, and track days.Designed to fit manual steering racks only. Not for power steering.
You guys interested???
I'll be researching exactly what's involved with the uninstall and installation for our cars. Looking at the 91 service manual, the job shouldn't take more than 2 hours.
niM
Good news!! Quaife UK is interested in doing R&D and production of the Quick Steer Kit for the NSX application.
The QSR quick ratio rack and pinion gear set is perhaps the most underrated performance part around. The Quaife rack and pinion gears simply replace the existing pieces inside your stock steering rack housing. More rapid steering response is felt with an average of 25 percent reduction in ratio, resulting in fewer turns lock-to-lock: this translates into much quicker steering and turn in at the cost of a slight increase in effort. The QSR is a must for autocross, drifting, and track days.Designed to fit manual steering racks only. Not for power steering.
You guys interested???
I'll be researching exactly what's involved with the uninstall and installation for our cars. Looking at the 91 service manual, the job shouldn't take more than 2 hours.
niM
I'm interested!
I'm interested and price-sensitive.
I'm interested in a faster ratio steering rack, and also possibly a conversion to the electric power steering version at the same time. It's hard enough trying to go hand-over-hand on a hairpin turn in an autocross, but if the steering effort is going to be even higher due to the faster ratio, I think I will need power assist!
-CiaoBoy
-CiaoBoy
Hello guys,
Good news!! Quaife UK is interested in doing R&D and production of the Quick Steer Kit for the NSX application.
The QSR quick ratio rack and pinion gear set is perhaps the most underrated performance part around. The Quaife rack and pinion gears simply replace the existing pieces inside your stock steering rack housing. More rapid steering response is felt with an average of 25 percent reduction in ratio, resulting in fewer turns lock-to-lock: this translates into much quicker steering and turn in at the cost of a slight increase in effort. The QSR is a must for autocross, drifting, and track days.Designed to fit manual steering racks only. Not for power steering.
You guys interested???
I'll be researching exactly what's involved with the uninstall and installation for our cars. Looking at the 91 service manual, the job shouldn't take more than 2 hours.
niM
how mucho dinero
so is a 91 not equiped with ps???
oh and i am very interested.
oh and i am very interested.
91-93 and Zanardi (and Type-S/Type-R) do not have PS. Still pretty easy to steer unless COMPLETELY stopped (which is generally easily avoided in places like parking lots by rolling very slowly).
ok i have been told so many different thing i didnt know. i figured my car didnt..
You should get your hands on an owner's manual...:smile: j/k
I'm interested but I don't want to screw 710. He seems to have put in some time designing this and then nimdivino. steps around him. Whats up with that?
T.J.
T.J.
Any update on this?
- Joined
- 12 December 2006
- Messages
- 630
Alright, I didn't mean to step on anybody's toes. I apologize, I seriously didn't read through the whole post. I didn't get to read 710's post, I am really sorry. I just blurted out Quaife and I went ahead and took the initiative to ask my friend since he worked closely with Quaife before. I was going to make a feeler thread last week, and I'm glad I didn't as thouchin made me read through the whole post.
710 has more knowledge than me now as he has started this thing before. He already has the contacts of quaife and Quaife got his designs, so I should let him be. Besides, its going to be hard to find the time to do the whole research. This weekend I was actually worrying how I am going to send a NSX manual rack to quaife.
So to 710, again I am sorry, my mistake.
Now obviously I am very interested with a quick-steer-kit for our cars, I have one in my corolla, and I love it. However I think 710's current design is very pricy plus the downtime is something I really avoid especially when it involves me to send my core and such. I would love to get one but like most people here, price is an issue.
niM
Last edited:
No problem nimdivino, I appreciate your enthusiasm.
I contacted Quaife, the man I need to speak with is on a working holiday for a week or so.
And yes, a quick rack is really great, what a difference it makes, nimdivino and others know that.
The question about it being reversible, the answer is yes. Completely reversible, the old rack and pinion can be put back in the original housing.
With regard to buying just the rack and pinion:
The reason I thought of you sending your rack unit to me to rebuild was because I didn’t think many people could rebuild the rack. I asked around and nobody seems to know how to do it, or have done it. Everybody says it should be easy, but nobody has actually done it. In my finding.
So, because I know how to do it, and is it relatively easy for me to do, I thought I could sell more racks by offering the trade service. It is a safety sensitive part so some people might want an experienced person to do it.
To make it easy for you guys that’s why I set up a delivery address in Los Angeles. Easier for delivering your old core to my place in Los Angeles too.
The bushing needs to be replaced too, the stock bushing in the NSX is very weak, it wears out very quickly and all the NSX racks I have looked at (in running cars too) need a new bush. It rattles sometimes too, you can feel it with your hand if you hold the tie rod ball. Sometimes you can actually hear it, it sounds like something is loose in the steering, but everything feels tight. That is the bushing, it is worn out. My car has 90,000miles, 140,000km, and it is really loose. The steering feels fine though, still very tight, but I hear the thing rattle sometimes on a rough road. It’s the bushing.
The bushing is a real bitch to get out without damaging the housing. That is why it is sometimes easier to just buy a new rack from Honda, about $700-$1000, if it rattles.
I made a special tool to pull the bushing out.
Then a replacement bush has to be found, can’t buy one from Honda. So I sourced new ones. It’s a special size (didn’t we know that…).
Then the bushing surface of the housing needs to be cleaned from the debris from the old bush, it is nylon and steel and is destroyed as it is pulled out, like I said, it is a bitch.
Then the new bush has to be pressed in. not too much or it will buckle (it is quite thin) and the tolerances change, it becomes too tight if it is pressed in too much.
Then a new clip needs to be clipped in.
Then the play has to be adjusted, not so hard to do really, but you have to know how to adjust it, and how it has to “feel” when it is right.
I know nimdivino knows how to do this, but how many others do?
If almost nobody knows how to do this, then I will sell only 2 or 3 racks and pinions, the rest will sit on the shelf then I am out thousands or dollars and a lot of time. Maybe Dali and SOS will buy some, but they will face the same risk.
I know that almost all NSX racks on the road today need a rebuild, so why not set up a service to do this, especially as I have done lots of racks before and have made the tools to do it right.
To cover my risks and make it interesting for me financially, I have to charge for the rack and pinion, the bushing work, the installation of the rack and pinion into the rack housing, the packing, delivery, customs (easier to sell things that way) , the time of my designing it (Quaife is a professional engineering company, they don’t fart around. They expect me to know what I what, then they make it. If it is wrong, tough luck for me, they still need to get paid).
And very importantly, I need to ensure a very high quality of the product so one doesn't break. None of these racks are allowed to be defective. Every rack I deliver must be perfect. It is a safety item, the steering. It’s not like an exhaust pipe that can break and the car gets parked on the side of the road.
Quaife has been machining racks for thousands and thousands of cars and racing cars and I know what to look for when building a rack, I have 30 years racing car experience, especially on the building and designing side. Luckily it is not a high risk, the rack and pinion are fairly simple, they never break, but hey, I still need to 100% guarantee it.
And down-time will only be a couple of hours. That alone is worth a few hundred dollars. I can imagine people taking their rack out, stripping it down and leaving it for months like that because they run into problems rebuilding it. And that is not good for me trying to sell my stock and recoup my investment. So I think it is better if I rebuild it for you.
You would receive my complete steering rack unit with UPS (shipping and customs already paid for), take yours out of the car (3 bolts and 2 nuts) , and put my rack unit in the car. You are back on the road in 2 hours, anybody can do it. Then you send your old rack unit to Los Angeles and get the core charge back. The core charge is for the housing, the rack and pinion I will keep here in case someone wants it, or if you want I will send it to you, I can’t use it anyway.
As far as the price being high, it is because of all of the above and I have to order a minimum of 25 racks. That is a very low quantity for Quaife. So the price per rack is very high.
A Corolla or Sierra or Escort rack is a few hundred dollars, maybe not even $300. Because there are thousands made and sold.
How many NSX racks can I sell or can Quaife or Dali or SOS sell? 5? 20? 100? Peanuts.
Then there is Right Hand Drive, they are different with a totally new investment. And there are almost more people who have told me they want to buy a Right Hand Drive version than a LHD version! And I have not even spoken to anybody in Japan yet.
So it is by no means certain that I (or Quaife) can recoup the costs, let alone make a small profit...
And then we come to the US dollar. It has gone through the floor and what seems to be reasonable price for the rest of us, turns out to be really high for you in the US. I mean €100 for us used to be about US$100. But now €100 is $150.
So even though I will try to lower my price, the price may at first seem relatively high for you (until you drive your car with the new steering in, that is). But still lower than a set of headers that do almost nothing, and the new steering will give an immediate different great feeling and a big smile, unlike headers.
Not to mention being able to catch the snap-back oversteer in a slide so you won’t have to spend $10,000 in body repair.
I appreciate any comments about this. And suggestions. I don’t have long toes. :smile:
Peter
I contacted Quaife, the man I need to speak with is on a working holiday for a week or so.
And yes, a quick rack is really great, what a difference it makes, nimdivino and others know that.
The question about it being reversible, the answer is yes. Completely reversible, the old rack and pinion can be put back in the original housing.
With regard to buying just the rack and pinion:
The reason I thought of you sending your rack unit to me to rebuild was because I didn’t think many people could rebuild the rack. I asked around and nobody seems to know how to do it, or have done it. Everybody says it should be easy, but nobody has actually done it. In my finding.
So, because I know how to do it, and is it relatively easy for me to do, I thought I could sell more racks by offering the trade service. It is a safety sensitive part so some people might want an experienced person to do it.
To make it easy for you guys that’s why I set up a delivery address in Los Angeles. Easier for delivering your old core to my place in Los Angeles too.
The bushing needs to be replaced too, the stock bushing in the NSX is very weak, it wears out very quickly and all the NSX racks I have looked at (in running cars too) need a new bush. It rattles sometimes too, you can feel it with your hand if you hold the tie rod ball. Sometimes you can actually hear it, it sounds like something is loose in the steering, but everything feels tight. That is the bushing, it is worn out. My car has 90,000miles, 140,000km, and it is really loose. The steering feels fine though, still very tight, but I hear the thing rattle sometimes on a rough road. It’s the bushing.
The bushing is a real bitch to get out without damaging the housing. That is why it is sometimes easier to just buy a new rack from Honda, about $700-$1000, if it rattles.
I made a special tool to pull the bushing out.
Then a replacement bush has to be found, can’t buy one from Honda. So I sourced new ones. It’s a special size (didn’t we know that…).
Then the bushing surface of the housing needs to be cleaned from the debris from the old bush, it is nylon and steel and is destroyed as it is pulled out, like I said, it is a bitch.
Then the new bush has to be pressed in. not too much or it will buckle (it is quite thin) and the tolerances change, it becomes too tight if it is pressed in too much.
Then a new clip needs to be clipped in.
Then the play has to be adjusted, not so hard to do really, but you have to know how to adjust it, and how it has to “feel” when it is right.
I know nimdivino knows how to do this, but how many others do?
If almost nobody knows how to do this, then I will sell only 2 or 3 racks and pinions, the rest will sit on the shelf then I am out thousands or dollars and a lot of time. Maybe Dali and SOS will buy some, but they will face the same risk.
I know that almost all NSX racks on the road today need a rebuild, so why not set up a service to do this, especially as I have done lots of racks before and have made the tools to do it right.
To cover my risks and make it interesting for me financially, I have to charge for the rack and pinion, the bushing work, the installation of the rack and pinion into the rack housing, the packing, delivery, customs (easier to sell things that way) , the time of my designing it (Quaife is a professional engineering company, they don’t fart around. They expect me to know what I what, then they make it. If it is wrong, tough luck for me, they still need to get paid).
And very importantly, I need to ensure a very high quality of the product so one doesn't break. None of these racks are allowed to be defective. Every rack I deliver must be perfect. It is a safety item, the steering. It’s not like an exhaust pipe that can break and the car gets parked on the side of the road.
Quaife has been machining racks for thousands and thousands of cars and racing cars and I know what to look for when building a rack, I have 30 years racing car experience, especially on the building and designing side. Luckily it is not a high risk, the rack and pinion are fairly simple, they never break, but hey, I still need to 100% guarantee it.
And down-time will only be a couple of hours. That alone is worth a few hundred dollars. I can imagine people taking their rack out, stripping it down and leaving it for months like that because they run into problems rebuilding it. And that is not good for me trying to sell my stock and recoup my investment. So I think it is better if I rebuild it for you.
You would receive my complete steering rack unit with UPS (shipping and customs already paid for), take yours out of the car (3 bolts and 2 nuts) , and put my rack unit in the car. You are back on the road in 2 hours, anybody can do it. Then you send your old rack unit to Los Angeles and get the core charge back. The core charge is for the housing, the rack and pinion I will keep here in case someone wants it, or if you want I will send it to you, I can’t use it anyway.
As far as the price being high, it is because of all of the above and I have to order a minimum of 25 racks. That is a very low quantity for Quaife. So the price per rack is very high.
A Corolla or Sierra or Escort rack is a few hundred dollars, maybe not even $300. Because there are thousands made and sold.
How many NSX racks can I sell or can Quaife or Dali or SOS sell? 5? 20? 100? Peanuts.
Then there is Right Hand Drive, they are different with a totally new investment. And there are almost more people who have told me they want to buy a Right Hand Drive version than a LHD version! And I have not even spoken to anybody in Japan yet.
So it is by no means certain that I (or Quaife) can recoup the costs, let alone make a small profit...
And then we come to the US dollar. It has gone through the floor and what seems to be reasonable price for the rest of us, turns out to be really high for you in the US. I mean €100 for us used to be about US$100. But now €100 is $150.
So even though I will try to lower my price, the price may at first seem relatively high for you (until you drive your car with the new steering in, that is). But still lower than a set of headers that do almost nothing, and the new steering will give an immediate different great feeling and a big smile, unlike headers.
Not to mention being able to catch the snap-back oversteer in a slide so you won’t have to spend $10,000 in body repair.
I appreciate any comments about this. And suggestions. I don’t have long toes. :smile:
Peter
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