Yes, I know this now.:smile:
Because the dollar is so low, these kits will definitely be made in the States. So I will be contacting you for a batch.:wink:i could do it but you are in europe.
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quicker steering ratio??
- Thread starter supergreen125
- Start date
Yes, I know this now.:smile:
no problem- let me know when you are ready. if possible, a 3d model would be sufficient but print is just fine too.
Seriously, I just thought about this yesterday while I was driving. I figure I do need to take a look at some solid bushings, etc., but that still won't help the number of turns of the wheel to get around a tight corner. I know I can get a Quick Ratio rack for my MR2, but I guess this thread means there isn't one yet for the NSX.
If you make one, and it costs less than $900 (probably still a bit steep), I WILL buy one.
If you make one, and it costs less than $900 (probably still a bit steep), I WILL buy one.
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1) 710 can you please summarise (in a few words) which NSX racks your idea applies to. Are you proposing a mod for any NSX rack? There are non-PS and PS racks, and different ratios through the various NSX model year ranges.
2) IMHO we need to remember the reasons for the NSX steering rack design. It was firstly to keep with light weight philosophy. With mid engine, conventional hydraulic PS would have required oil piping from PS pump on engine to front of car = heavy! But as car design has much less weight on front wheels than most cars, Honda went for no PS (originally). BUT this meant MUCH higher driver arm strength required, especially when parking. So the first compromise was a higher ratio (more turns lock-to-lock), the second compromise (later) was adding electric power steering (EPS).
The EPS is much lighter than conventional PS, but does not assist as much and only works at low speeds (below 25mph / 40 kph I believe?) and so doesn't help when fighting snap oversteer etc at speed.
Bottom lines ... fitting a lower ratio rack will mean ...
At speed:
- increase steering forces on the driver's arms in corners, and significantly in tight corners
- improve ability to steer quickly in an emergency when moving at speed... provided you're strong enuf!
When parking
- significantly increase steering forces when parking, unless is you have EPS already
- reduce number wheel turns to get into that tight spot
2) IMHO we need to remember the reasons for the NSX steering rack design. It was firstly to keep with light weight philosophy. With mid engine, conventional hydraulic PS would have required oil piping from PS pump on engine to front of car = heavy! But as car design has much less weight on front wheels than most cars, Honda went for no PS (originally). BUT this meant MUCH higher driver arm strength required, especially when parking. So the first compromise was a higher ratio (more turns lock-to-lock), the second compromise (later) was adding electric power steering (EPS).
The EPS is much lighter than conventional PS, but does not assist as much and only works at low speeds (below 25mph / 40 kph I believe?) and so doesn't help when fighting snap oversteer etc at speed.
Bottom lines ... fitting a lower ratio rack will mean ...
At speed:
- increase steering forces on the driver's arms in corners, and significantly in tight corners
- improve ability to steer quickly in an emergency when moving at speed... provided you're strong enuf!
When parking
- significantly increase steering forces when parking, unless is you have EPS already
- reduce number wheel turns to get into that tight spot
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Well summarized.
It is good to understand what effect it will have, but it is also important to understand the degree of increased steering effort, which I feel will be completely manageable with the NSX.
Having driven a '73 DeTomaso Pantera, and an '86 Testaross, neither of which have power steering...as long as the car is in appreciable motion (>5mph) even those thing's steering lightened up enough to allow only moderate effort. I'm not saying that I expect drifting an NSX with a quick-ratio manual 'rack will be a cinch, but as a potential customer, I do well understand the trade-offs you have summarized here.
I think if it's done correctly, you will not have to be a hero to turn the wheel even at parking lot speeds.
So, someone please update this with a link to purchase :biggrin:
I'm pretty sure turning force/effort has nothing to do with causing/curing "snap oversteer" (not reacting properly to oversteer is the cause, reacting properly the cure).
My design will fit ALL NSXes.
Fits all years.
Fits all types, power steering and manual steering.
Fits all Left Hand Drive (LHD) cars (USA, Europe)
Fits all Right Hand Drive (RHD) cars (England, Australia ,Asia, Japan).
Fits all lowered cars, cars with wider track (body kits), bigger or smaller wheels.
Fits all stock cars
It will all be the same kit (except arm length and height, see below).
Installation?
The steering rack that you now have in your car will remain in your car. Don’t touch it.
The arms will be attached (in a very professional and clean way) to your existing upright, do not remove your uprights, leave them on the car.
You will have to remove your brake rotor and caliper temporarily.
Using a special jig included in the kit, saw your existing steering arm off and again using the jig, drill 1 hole.
Detach a couple of existing bolts, replace one of those with a longer bolt (included in kit)
Mount the arm kit, locktite the bolts and torque, re-mount the rotor and caliper.
Remount tie rod ends
Have front end aligned
How quick will the steering be?
The length of the arms that the customer orders will determine how quick the steering will be.
Slightly shorter arms will give slightly quicker steering.
Really shorter arms will give really quicker steering.
Standard (same as stock) length arms will give same as stock steering.
Slightly longer arms will give slightly slower steering (slightly easier parking)(longer won’t fit stock wheels)
All arms can be changed later (to quicker or to slower or back to stock) by only 4 bolts. Only remove the wheel (not the caliper and rotor).
You can order new arms later and easily install them if you want to play around with different ratios.
Street use or racing use?
For street use, several arms will be available, but I can machine special arms if you want. Because the arms are easily detachable and replaceable using only 4 bolts (leaving rotor and caliper on the car), anything is possible.
For racing use, I can machine arms with different characteristics. Because the arms are easily detachable and replaceable using only 4 bolts (leaving rotor and caliper on the car), anything is possible.
Colour?
Available in several colours, (anodized aluminium probably, my prototype is steel, so black)
Bump Steer?
For those of you that have standard wheels and ride height, the bump steer characteristics that you now have will remain the same.
For those of you that have larger wheels and have lowered you car, you have already changed the bump steer characteristics. I will machine arms that bring the bump steer back as close as possible to original. Just send me your wheel and ride height information.
Delivery time?
1) This thing is not going as fast as I want, I am trying to build and finish my house.
2) My job (contract basis) is now coming to an end so depending on the recession/depression/crash, maybe I will have time on my hands to continue with this. But no money.
3) My girlfriend is expensive. :biggrin:
Price?
Who knows, but it has to be affordable.
Depending on the recession/depression/crash, how much is affordable? $800-$1000 US dollars?
Design details?
-I bought a right and left upright
-I need to 3D digitise a right upright and a left upright, ridiculous price and trouble
-I am making a digitizer to do this.
-I designed the length of the arms (effects how quick the steering is to be)
-I designed the height of the arm (effects bump steer)
-I designed the angle of the arms (effects Ackermann geometry)
-I designed the mounting system
-I am designing the individual arms, several different lengths
-must design to be very profession functionality, safe (FEA) and good looking
-must make prototypes from aluminium to test geometry
-must mount on my car to test results
-must find good steel and aluminium to make the arms from for production
-must write formula to plug in numbers depending on length of arms, ride height, wheel size, for customer orders
-must add up costs, set price
-must produce
I hope that is “summarized” enough…:smile:
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um ..... yes! (but can we have the full story now? :wink
sorry for revisiting old ground, I was out for a few days and completely missed the thread change from steering rack mods to steering arm mods.... doh!
Looking forward to images of your prototype. Keep up the good work ...
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My pleasure.
but sorry it is all taking so long...life keeps interfering. I had hoped to have a kit available by the end of the year (2008) but i'm not going to make it. :frown:
If anyone can digitise, in 3D, a left and right upright for me (around the steering arm area, including a reference to the king pin angle (upper and lower ball joint holes) and wheel hub centre line (wheel hub area) , that would help enormously. Any format would be fine.
but sorry it is all taking so long...life keeps interfering. I had hoped to have a kit available by the end of the year (2008) but i'm not going to make it. :frown:
If anyone can digitise, in 3D, a left and right upright for me (around the steering arm area, including a reference to the king pin angle (upper and lower ball joint holes) and wheel hub centre line (wheel hub area) , that would help enormously. Any format would be fine.
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710 your enthusiasm and design work is to be applauded. I will absolutely be a customer and plan on this as one of my very first mods. After experiencing a relatively quick steering ratio (EVO), there is truly no comparison to the improvement in performance driving experience compared to a slower ratio vehicle such as my GSX. Both cars handle very well, but a big part of what makes the EVO such an absolute blast to drive is the quick ratio. I think this will be a VERY popular modification!
Tom
Tom
thanks mate.
My first time was with an Escort MKII rally car, then i was hooked. What a blast!
It is the single best improvement to any car.
Early next year, fingers crossed.
lets do this!
A quicker ratio will also result in "twitchy" or abrupt inputs at very high (150 mph-ish) speeds.
my $.02
I'm starting to lean towards a "dead-on-center" issue than a low steering ratio. Once you take up about 90* on the wheel, the steering ratio is pretty quick, it's just the ~90* in one direction or the other which sucks...
I read this yesterday, and thought about it while I was driving today, and I think I agree with you. It isn't really just freeplay, because you can sort of feel it doing something even .5" off center, it just doesn't do very much at all until you have moved the wheel quite a few degrees one direction or the other.
that aformentioned "vagueness" may actually be a design feature intended for a streat car. the thinking behind it is that you would want to minimize the driver's twitchy inputs and effects of road irregularities to keep the car from hunting side to side. even if the above is not true, the new design will decrease the 'dead spot' in an amount proportionate to overall steering quickness increase.
We have a winner!
Yes most street cars do have a variable ratio near dead-on-center to reduce the responsive/twitchyness of street cars. S2000s' dont seem to have it though...
Anyway, while doing the aformentioned modifications on another platform, it does help this, but by making the on-center steering more responsive by changing the pickup points, it will make the rest of the steering that much more responsive.
For the non PS equipped cars, I wonder how hard/much it would cost to just put a non PS racing rack with a better ratio and lack of on-center slower ratio.
0.o2
This is a very nice project and would be a very nice upgrade certainly for the those who track there NSX.
We have a winner!
Yes most street cars do have a variable ratio near dead-on-center to reduce the responsive/twitchyness of street cars. S2000s' dont seem to have it though...
Anyway, while doing the aformentioned modifications on another platform, it does help this, but by making the on-center steering more responsive by changing the pickup points, it will make the rest of the steering that much more responsive.
For the non PS equipped cars, I wonder how hard/much it would cost to just put a non PS racing rack with a better ratio and lack of on-center slower ratio.
0.o2
Having just helped a friend take apart a manual rack on a 240sx, I wonder if it would be as simple as making a copy "blank" of the rack, and then having a different tooth pattern machined into it, or if you would also have to mess with the pinion gear...
I'm wondering aloud because I am neither an engineer nor a machinist, in the hopes that one will chime in.
the rack itself is not the problem but the 'pickup points' of the steering geometry (like stuntman said). anyway, without a serious amount of r&d we will not be able to fix that problem alone but rather will have to accept whatever improvement of the 'dead spot' will be produced by the ratio change. if anyone has a chance to drive a real racecar you will see how much more accurate the steering is, although i can see that being a problem on the street.
I wouldn't necessarily say the pickup points are the problem. The 'problem' is the less sensitive, different steering ratio from on-center to ~90* turning in either direction. I'm pretty sure the middle of the stock rack has a different ratio (like most street cars) than the ratio when past the on-center slower ratio.
0.02
Time bump an old thread! I'm still new here, and curious what happened with this. But i want one too!
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