Snap Ring (Transmission) Broke Today - Advice Appreciated

[nsxtasy]

For my own info and for future reference, anyone in my area (South Carolina, GA, NC border) ?

I've heard good things about Leith Acura's location in Cary, and about Acura Carland in Duluth, northeast of Atlanta. That doesn't say anything about the amount of NSX experience among other dealers in your area one way or the other; only that I haven't heard anything about them. I'm sure others on this board can also recommend someone - particularly if you ask in the Southeastern regional forum.

Reason I'm asking is that my car *is also* in snap ring range and I'm right around there in mileage (82K miles). I was told however by the previous owner (a member of this forum) that in this case mine may be one of the lucky ones that were ok afterall, and that if it was a "bad" case one, the ring would already have snapped. The bad luck of our friend nsxotic proves to me what I initially thought (="yeah right") and would like to have my transmission checked next time I need a clutch...

There is no point by which a snap ring range transmission would definitely have already failed (although it is true that some of them were machined correctly and may never fail). In the FAQ section on this, it lists 11 incidents of snap ring failure with mileage at the time of failure reported, ranging from a low of 24K miles, to a high of 116K miles.

Originally posted by chriswtx
he is the manager of the parts department

As noted above, just because you can buy parts elsewhere, doesn't mean that the experienced NSX mechanic/dealer you want to use is willing to install them, or is willing to warranty the repair.

Of course, the easy thing to do is, just ask. Some mechanics will be happy to use parts purchased elsewhere. Some will refuse. Some will do so but grudgingly, and may not warranty the repair. But anyplace should be willing to tell you their policy in advance, before you buy the parts and risk getting stuck with them.

IOW: Don't ask us. Ask the place where the repair will be done.

Originally posted by chriswtx
They have a good mech.

What is needed is someone who is more than just a good mechanic. What you really want is someone who works on NSXs all the time - not just once a month, not just oil changes and brake jobs, but someone who opens up an NSX transmission at least once or twice a month, knows all the short cuts and gotchas, and can diagnose the situation appropriately.

 

[PHOEN$X]

:-( - Student = NO $

You have just discovered why advice is frequently given on NSXprime to those who can't afford an expensive repair, not to buy the car in the first place.

It's too bad he had to find out the hard way. Where are the folks pushing the "you only live once, go for it" line of thought now?

 

[RichH]

One thing you can try.

What I did:

I got a price quote on brake parts from Honda World (but you could price around the Dealers that offer a discount to NSXCA members). If you are a member.

I showed the e-mail quote to my dealer. They offered to match the price of the 25% discount. I was quite pleased.

I must mention, I am a regular customer of the dealership. It can help if you establish a positive relationship with a dealership in your area. Always choose a dealer with an excellent NSX Tech.

Just a thought,

Good Luck,
Rich

 

[DocL]

You have just discovered why advice is frequently given on NSXprime to those who can't afford an expensive repair, not to buy the car in the first place.

It's too bad he had to find out the hard way. Where are the folks pushing the "you only live once, go for it" line of thought now?

They won't chime in because it's not their money problem. I guess that the only way for someone to see what real world ownership is like it to learn the hard way. Besides, who would ever thought that the NSX is an economy car when clearly it's a thoroughbred.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

I have one more question about the snap ring. since it broke and feel into the transmission - most likely it will be easy to remove the broken pieces right???

Well, not really. Many times the snap ring is jammed in and the original case needs to be cut open to disassemble the trans. This is when it takes longer, requires alot of extra cleaning time, and further careful inspection, since:I don't want junk in the transmission after its fixed

This repair is not like a brake job. I am sure you will get baseline estimates and "we will see when we get in there" comments, as I gave you privately.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Juice]

nsxexotic,

Not to heckle, but the advice thrown at you by nsxtacy (Ken) and LarryB is the best you are going to get. You seem to be fighting it awfully hard and I don't understand why (other than the fact that your NSX just suffered a setback). My advice is to follow their advice without question. You have 2 major NSXCA players in your court and they are telling exactly what you need to hear.

Flatbed the car to Bernie. You should consider yourself lucky to have such an established NSX tech so close to you!

 

[winreboot]

I went thought this with my car. It is a pain, but with help on this board makes a BIG difference.

Here is a thread what happen to me http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19331

I changed the tranny case only, but I was extremely lucky that the broken peaces I was able to remove throug the snap ring screw shown on the picture and the rest of the ring stay in one peace. Don't drive the car because it will grind your differential with 1st gear teeth and you will have peaces floating in it, even doo there is magnet inside the tranny don't take a chance don't drive it.

 

[kpond]

nsxexotic,

In parallel to everything else, I would recommend that you look into either suing Honda are potentially joining a lawsuit in progress with the hopes of recovering your expenses.

This is not a popular recommendation to many here on the board because they are so infactuated with Honda they can't see beyond their own senses. If this happened to me, I would sue them. There is only one way to lose a lawsuit like this and that is if YOU knew about the snap ring issue before buying your car and chose to buy a car with a potential problem, perhaps instead of a car outside the range. Assuming YOU did not about the issue, rest assured that Honda did. Look at the facts against them:

They became aware of the problem in 1991. (Documented and cannot be contested.) A recall would have hurt Honda's reputation and that of the NSX which was starting to get hammered with tire wear issues. So, instead of a recall Honda chose instead to "Goodwill" the repair and try as hard as possible to hide it from the public eye. Honda arbitrarily decided that after a few years, the Goodwill term was long enough and they stopped it. Terminating the Goodwill period was, in my mind, stupid. This is Honda's main point of vulnerability. So, you can easily PROVE; 1) They new the problem; 2) They new failures *could* be dangerous; 3) They decided to Goodwill the repairs to keep them from the public eye; 4) They arbitrarily decided to stop the Goodwill practice after a certain period. Oh, and you can also proove with a little more efoort that those people who were accustomed to getting screwed by Honda service rates were more likely to get their cases (no pun intended) goodwilled than those individuals who performed maintenance themselves or through a shop of THEIR choosing. Some owners may put 25K miles a year or more on their car while others may put 3K or less. The point is that if you purchase an 1991 NSX today, for example, with 25K, 50K, or perhaps even 80K, you should have every reason to believe that a manufacturing defect that the maker was aware of in 1991 is not going to damage your car - and potentially put you in danger. The hardest part about your case is the mileage of your car but I still believe it is reasonable to expect a manual transmission car to provide 150K - 200K miles of good service (clutch notwithstanding).

I'm not a person with any legal education, etc. so take this input for what it is worth. My car is NOT in snap ring range and I generally think Honda is a good company. However, I think the position they took on this problem since the beginning has been less than honorable.

And before I relinquish this soapbox to the naysayers, let me tell you what Honda should have done. They should, at a minimum, goodwill these transmissions for the LIFE of the vehicle.... because they SHOULD have been replaced in the beginning. Pramatically, it was hard for Honda to replace all of the POTENTIALLY affected transmissions... since the only presumably knew the range of vulnerability and not the exact transmissions that were faulty. OK, fine, that's THEIR problem. If THEY could have determined precisely the 100, 200, or 500 transmissions that were bad, I would like to think that they would have replaced them all back in 1991/92. However, since they could not, why put the burden (and saftey risk) back to the general public and absolve your responsibility?

Bring on the flames, gents. I can take it.

 

[Yellow Rose]

How much does this cost?

$3119 and some change - includes all new bearings, all new synchros and all new short gears. Had the short gears not been needed (that was a unique situation in and of itself) the cost would've been reduced by $1050.

 

[peiserg]

some quicky advice if you decide to have the car towed.. just rent a flatbed towing device for a day from UHAUL for something like $150, vs. the $$$$ it will cost for a tow via a professional tow truck c ompany... just make sure to strap the car down securely for the ride!! then find a buddy with a picku truck or what-not that has a towing capacity that can pull the nsx...

 

[nsxexotic]

Well I will be contacting http://www.davisacura.com Phone: 215-943-7000 following your advice. I have AAA plus and will be getting free flatbed towing to any location within 100 miles.

Also kpond,

I do know a lawyer that is a partner with my uncles consulting firm. What do you recommend I do or the first step?

Does anybody think that a potential lawsuit will force Acura to goodwill the repair or at least pay for the parts? anyone?

thanks.

(btw this is interesting http://www.leonoff.net/pages/NSX/nsxtranschange/nsxtranschange.html )

 

[Yellow Rose]

Does anybody think that a potential lawsuit will force Acura to goodwill the repair or at least pay for the parts?

Despite the assertion by some PRIME members that NSXers should sue the pants off of Honda, in my opinion, you are dreaming. Big time!!!

I was in a situation where in my (non-lawyer-educated) opinion I felt that my engine should've been paid for. There was clearly some wording ambiguity in the warranty. I visited with three high-dollar law firms in this city, and all three said that despite them willing to accept my money, I would be wasting my time.

Get on with life and enjoy the car.

 

[apapada]

ken & chris,

thank you for your posts.

alex

 

[nsxexotic]

Thanks everyone.

BTW I just called Davis Acura and the gentleman that answered the phone said that I can probaly just replace the snap ring because the new ones are different and better. I told him NO - my car is in the range and the grove on the case was improperly cut. He insisted that I can only replace the snap ring. I asked him if Bernie still does work there. he said yes and I hung up.

Bernie needs to inform this guy giving me false infomation!

I am going to try to ask for Bernie next time I call - you think they will let me talk to him?

 

[apapada]

Bernie needs to inform this guy giving me false infomation!

I am going to try to ask for Bernie next time I call - you think they will let me talk to him?

Just give them a call, when the receptionist answers ask to be transfered to the service department, do not say why, just say something like "the service department please". When you are transfered there, very politely ask for Bernie. If they ask you if *they* can help you, respectfully mention to them your name and that you would like to talk to Bernie. If you are firm on the phone, they will let you talk to him without too many questions. I have a very good friend at a local dealership and that's what I do when I need to talk to him despite the people on the phone being usually very #$%$ about talking to a mechanic.

good luck.
alex

 

[nsxtasy]

Dealerships vary with respect to the quality of their service advisors (the people who write up the work in the service department, who usually take the phone calls and have all the customer contact). Some are very knowledgeable, some are not. Turnover is often a big problem.

That being said, I don't think talking to Bernie over the phone is appropriate or necessary at this point in time. Make the appointment with the service advisor, letting him know that you want Bernie to work on the car. Take your car to the dealership at the pre-arranged time, and Bernie will then diagnose what is needed while he is able to work on the car and see for himself.

Frankly, your approach to making such arrangements is extremely lacking in courtesy and respect for the people who will be servicing your car. I think you need to get some experience working in a service industry. You would get a better appreciation of the need for you to just let them do their job.

 

[nsxtasy]

It's reasonable to ask them for an estimate before they do the work.

If the service advisor you spoke with does not understand the need for the upper transmission case, it's reasonable to ask him/her to check with Bernie and ask him specifically whether that should be replaced as well. (However, let THEM check with Bernie; YOU don't need to do so.)

Don't expect them to accept someone else's prices for labor or parts, or someone else's labor estimates. Ask them for theirs. They should be able to give you a preliminary estimate for the repair over the phone beforehand, assuming you explicitly tell them you understand that it may change once they get the car in the shop and have a chance to review their preliminary diagnosis.

Good luck.

 

[LJSB]

"then find a buddy with a pickup truck or what-not ..."

I know most of you have seen this but this advice made me think of this:



http://www.texas4x4.com/users/rjones/Video/snowtowcar.wmv

 

[nsxexotic]

ops . deleted the post by accident. this one is b4 "It's reasonable" nsxtasy

I'm getting tired & hate NSX down time so I have decided to take the car to Bernie @ Davis Acura of Langhorn, PA and let him do the work from start to end only if cost are reasonable.

Labor figures are book rates
Parts prices are from TIM @ Ray Lacks Acura and hopefully Davis Acura prices will be similar or at least resonable.

650 ... OEM Kit for Snap Ring Repair inc Upper trans case
1050 ... OEM Clutch
324 ... R & R Transmission (Book Rate) 4.5 hr @ $72/hr
216 ... Snap Ring Repair - bump from 2.5 hr to 3 hr @ $72/hr

Total w/tax $2374 - prob more like 2500 because of fluids ect ect.

Assuming no other complications - don't bash me please I know it may happen but I am praying nothing broke :-(

 

[steveny]

I understand where you are getting nsxtasy. I'm just looking for alternatives. Any NSX mech willing to do the job outside dealer?

My next question would be who here has done the upper transmission case b/c of snap ring NOT at the dealer??? Perhaps someone that has experience with NSX other than the dealer?

Sure, Mark Schoff in New Jersey can fix it for 900 bucks.

Take the car to the dealer, pay the money, and have it fixed correctly.

 

[winreboot]

I wanted to go after Honda when my snap ring went too, I fax numerous documents they ask me for to Honda Headquarters. It took a month to have them get back to me. I was short on cash that time.

Then it finally came to this "Since I was not the original FIRST owner they will not cover it. If I was the first owner they would reimburse the local Acura dealer parts and labor only as specified in technical documentation back in 91"

I could not understand that but they would not step down on the statement. They would not want to talk to me after that. I felt bad since I always give credit to HONDA, but this time I felt second hand used customer. (sucker type of deal) but live moves on ...... I forked out the cash and fixed it on my own.

 

[LJSB]

1) Buy the parts yourself from different vendors. Laks, Dali, SOS.

2) Find a mechanic that has general tensmission experience or has worked on a Honda transmission before (they're all pretty much the same right?) and save the money a dealer or a supposed NSX specialist would charge.

3)Rent a tow trailer and get a buddy with a hitch on a pickup to tow you to where it's going to get fixed.

4) If you need any information just call Davis Acura, politely ask for the service department and tell them you want to talk to Bernie directly.

5) Call that lawyer, the one that is a partner with your uncle's consulting firm, and get your money back from Acura. A problem like this in a 80k, 13 year old car shouldn't be paid for by a student on a budget. This should still be covered by Acura. Get some new tire coupons while you're at it! (why did they stop that?)



Yep. <-------------- sarcasm

I should of put that rolling eye smile face at the end. Just having "yep" was a little too subtle.

 

[apapada]

Sure, Mark Schoff in New Jersey can fix it for 900 bucks.

That was harsh, nonetheless it was funny...

 

[apapada]

A problem like this in a 80k, 13 year old car shouldn't be paid for by a student on a budget. This should still be covered by Acura.

Although I agree that problems like the snap ring failure should be taken care by the manufacturer independently of age of the car and mileage, I disagree on the way your sentence is emphasizing the "student on a budget".

First of all, imho the "student on a budget" is irrelevant to the fact that Honda has had a responsibility to fix this problem, even if the owner is Bill Gates...

Second of all, what is a "student on a budget" doing with an NSX in the first place ? Aren't cheap Civics/Accords/Integras cool anymore ?
I'm really sorry for this dude. All I can advise him to do now is to consider this expensive repair bill as "tuition" for another class: CarOwnership101 where we learn the hard way that "Just because I was given the financing, it does not mean I can actually afford it..."

All of this was just a bad news waiting to happen... If it wasnt the snap ring failure, it would have been something else.

peace.

 

[Osiris_x11]

heed the elders...

hmmm, look man...

Take the advice of the others here... Get the job done, RIGHT. Period.

I own a lexus ES300 and had a transmission failure @ 59k miles; it was past 6yrs of ownership (hence void 6yr/60k mile powertrain warranty). In haste I got it done helter-skelter. Since then- I've had 3 more failures on it- and seems to be impossible to get it A-ok. Something I have to live w/.

The loss of time, inconvenience, and personal aggravation can not be equated to dollar bills.

I am a student still, so no more gripes about that anymore please.

Sh1t happens, get it done & all the bests...