- Joined
- 3 February 2000
- Messages
- 3,942
Two hats in this post. First, as forum admin, some folks need to chill right out and drop the personal issues before taking this thread any further.
Now, as one owner to another, let's talk about dealers and service and business.
Dealers make a lot of money on service. In fact it's not rare for a dealer to make as much or more on parts and service as on car sales. While some dealers may prefer not to do NSX service, Davis and other major NSX service shops certainly make good money at it because they have a strong reputation and as a result they have a steady stream of NSX customers. Davis has enough business that Bernie spends most of his time doing NSX work. While it's great to have that resource available, it's not a charity. They make money and deserve to do so.
Dealers (and independent shops) make money two ways on the service side: parts and labor. If you buy a clutch from the dealer and have them install it, they make some margin on the parts and some more on the labor. If you buy your clutch elsewhere they are only getting the labor. This means the job is less profitable for them. This means if they have strong demand for their service it is less desireable for them to do this job - they could be doing a job where they make money on both the parts and the labor.
I know in the past Davis has declined to install parts bought elsewhere. I'm not sure if that is still their policy, but it is certainly their right. Assuming you have given the full story, it sounds to me like when you asked about installing this clutch and specified labor only (meaning you were going to provide parts) they probably padded their labor estimate a bit. This was probably for one or both of the following reasons: 1) Cover their butt for the added unknowns they've run into before when a customer brings in a box with some clutch they've never seen before, no instructions and maybe even missing parts or a problem with the part and 2) To help make up for the money they are losing on the job by you buying your parts elsewhere.
The issue of using book labor can be debated, but basically it sounds like Davis is quoting a job price, not giving an hourly estimate. In the contracting / consulting world there are two main ways to work: Hourly (time and materials) or lump sum (fixed fee for the job). If they want to work that way -- basically going by their own "book rate" based on their experience doing this kind of work with customer-supplied parts, I don't see a problem with it, they are both legitimate ways of doing business.
Anyway I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with being an informed customer or understanding what you are paying for. And for most people trust is earned, not assumed. The good news is that many NSX owners have gone before you and Davis has earned the trust of the NSX community. But you are right, in general if you never ask for a cost breakdown that you can understand you're going to get ripped off left and right in all aspects of your life.
However if you understand how the business works, you will understand better why most shops do not like to deal with people who supply their own parts (usually more hassle, less profit), and why you may occasionally pay more in labor if you do supply your own parts. This can be a touchy issue though and really I think a better solution would be to publish a higher labor rate for customers who provide their own parts. As a customer I recognize the additional hassle and lost profit of customer supplied parts, but there are also times I would prefer to supply my own parts even if it means I'm paying more for labor to install them.... mainly because I have aftermarket parts on my car that are simply not available through the shop's regular parts channels.
I will tell you this: I would GLADLY pay a lot of money for someone with Bernie's experience to work on my car. You are lucky to have an experienced NSX mechanic nearby. Many of us do not have a good NSX mechanic for hundreds of miles around. On the up side I've learned a bit about the NSX as a result....
Now, as one owner to another, let's talk about dealers and service and business.
Dealers make a lot of money on service. In fact it's not rare for a dealer to make as much or more on parts and service as on car sales. While some dealers may prefer not to do NSX service, Davis and other major NSX service shops certainly make good money at it because they have a strong reputation and as a result they have a steady stream of NSX customers. Davis has enough business that Bernie spends most of his time doing NSX work. While it's great to have that resource available, it's not a charity. They make money and deserve to do so.
Dealers (and independent shops) make money two ways on the service side: parts and labor. If you buy a clutch from the dealer and have them install it, they make some margin on the parts and some more on the labor. If you buy your clutch elsewhere they are only getting the labor. This means the job is less profitable for them. This means if they have strong demand for their service it is less desireable for them to do this job - they could be doing a job where they make money on both the parts and the labor.
I know in the past Davis has declined to install parts bought elsewhere. I'm not sure if that is still their policy, but it is certainly their right. Assuming you have given the full story, it sounds to me like when you asked about installing this clutch and specified labor only (meaning you were going to provide parts) they probably padded their labor estimate a bit. This was probably for one or both of the following reasons: 1) Cover their butt for the added unknowns they've run into before when a customer brings in a box with some clutch they've never seen before, no instructions and maybe even missing parts or a problem with the part and 2) To help make up for the money they are losing on the job by you buying your parts elsewhere.
The issue of using book labor can be debated, but basically it sounds like Davis is quoting a job price, not giving an hourly estimate. In the contracting / consulting world there are two main ways to work: Hourly (time and materials) or lump sum (fixed fee for the job). If they want to work that way -- basically going by their own "book rate" based on their experience doing this kind of work with customer-supplied parts, I don't see a problem with it, they are both legitimate ways of doing business.
Anyway I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with being an informed customer or understanding what you are paying for. And for most people trust is earned, not assumed. The good news is that many NSX owners have gone before you and Davis has earned the trust of the NSX community. But you are right, in general if you never ask for a cost breakdown that you can understand you're going to get ripped off left and right in all aspects of your life.
However if you understand how the business works, you will understand better why most shops do not like to deal with people who supply their own parts (usually more hassle, less profit), and why you may occasionally pay more in labor if you do supply your own parts. This can be a touchy issue though and really I think a better solution would be to publish a higher labor rate for customers who provide their own parts. As a customer I recognize the additional hassle and lost profit of customer supplied parts, but there are also times I would prefer to supply my own parts even if it means I'm paying more for labor to install them.... mainly because I have aftermarket parts on my car that are simply not available through the shop's regular parts channels.
I will tell you this: I would GLADLY pay a lot of money for someone with Bernie's experience to work on my car. You are lucky to have an experienced NSX mechanic nearby. Many of us do not have a good NSX mechanic for hundreds of miles around. On the up side I've learned a bit about the NSX as a result....
