Anyone know the specifics? Is it the quality of the parts, the craftsmanship of the workers, or something else? Is it the complexity of the Ferrari? I would really like to know.
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What makes an NSX reliable and a Ferrari unreliable?
- Thread starter Maximus_NSX
- Start date
Are you kidding?? It can pretty much be summed up in one word. Honda. 
Are you kidding?? It can pretty much be summed up in one word. Honda.
I knew someone would say that. So, what makes a Honda reliable and a Ferrari unreliable?:biggrin:
Lol. :wink: Well I think it comes down to engineering and design. I think Honda is really focused on reliability. And I don't think they will sacrifice it for the sake of performance.
Ferrari on the other hand is focused on performance... and if a part or design gives better performance but wears out in 10 thousand miles, so be it. If you have the money to buy it, you have the money to fix it. And they are supposed to be serviced at such short, silly intervals.... those wear components get checked.
Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. That makes perfect sense. The wear components might be subjected to more stress in a Ferrari over a Honda.
I truely believe that the if the Honda guys felt reliability was being sacrificed for performance, they would either go back to the drawing board to try to get that same performance and the reliability they want, or they would scale back the performance for the sake of the other.
Ferrari is all out.
Think of an NSX as the Navy Seal team, and Ferrari as a Marine Demolitions unit.
Both perform, one just uses discretion as it does so. :wink:
Ferrari is all out.
Think of an NSX as the Navy Seal team, and Ferrari as a Marine Demolitions unit.
Both perform, one just uses discretion as it does so. :wink:
I would say the Engineering details that Honda spent with the development of the NSX.
If I remember correctly they started working on the NSX in 1984, launch in 1990, so six year of development, x number of patent, and last but not lease a Company that is know for Engineering without compromise.
This company that spends large sums of dollars on Racing, in order to develop their every day road cars.
Bram
If I remember correctly they started working on the NSX in 1984, launch in 1990, so six year of development, x number of patent, and last but not lease a Company that is know for Engineering without compromise.
This company that spends large sums of dollars on Racing, in order to develop their every day road cars.
Bram
one is made by a bunch of anal retentive japanese perfectionists....the other is made by Ferrari lol
The biggest difference, other than the obvious cultural, is the goal the 2 companies set for the car. A 2008 Ferrari is far more reliable than a 1988 308, just as a 1990 NSX is. The goal at Ferrari was performance and style, but I believe the old man (Enzo F) wasn't as concerned with comfort, computer development and adoption of state of the art. Mr. Honda's goal was performance and style with comfort and reliability. Designing / Engineering with the additional goals in mind takes more time and money than with fewer goals.
I could go on and on about FMECA and FMEA, throw in some reliability analysis, but we'd all just get bored.
Miner
I could go on and on about FMECA and FMEA, throw in some reliability analysis, but we'd all just get bored.
Miner
They stopped making the 308 in 85. After that it was the 328, no big deal just an fyi. That said I had a 308 and now an 95 nsx. The engine on the Ferrari was bullet proof. Its all the little crap that goes wrong that drives you crazy and is expensive. If you compare a 90s Ferrari (348, 355) I still feel the NSX is going to be more reliable and have less issues. Also the NSX is less expensive to have work done to it. Timing belt for an NSX around 2k with water pump etc. The 308 was close to 4k and needs to be done 30k or 5 years.
I agree. I have heard the 355's getting 150,000+ miles with just normal maintenance.
But, perception or not, I see three main reasons that the Honda product is "more reliable":
1) Manufacturing/Engineering: Honda is high volume with the experience of quality control, robotics and detailed assembly lines. For the most part, repetition = quality.
2) Ferrari powertrain trickles down from Formula 1 which designs a car meant to be performance based and reliability is second....Explode at the finish line or the car is over-built.
3) The cost of ownership and maintenance intervals leads to the perception that the Ferrari is not reliable.
Well though I don't know much about Ferarri. If they put 10% of their efforts in reliability as they do design, it would be the worlds best car.
Well though I don't know much about Ferarri. If they put 10% of their efforts in reliability as they do design, it would be the worlds best car.
Well, reliability is the most difficult part of product design....Talk to GM and Ford about that one. :smile:
FTR, I am employed as an automotive engineer and I struggle with possible recalls on a daily basis. It's not as simple as pinpointing the car manufacturer, tier suppliers are usually the cause of the black eye.
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+1
its like the "vip" programs atcar dealerships(like my local honda) yuo need to bring your car in ever so often to have the car checked over to make sure its in tip top shape, now with a brand new honda thats kind of a hassle, but with a 300,000 $ dollar car you are dam sure going to be making sure its in tip top shape every couple thousand miles becaus if something fails in that its going to be $$$, and you dont want your brand new ferrari clutch burning up and have to have it sit on the highway for a few hours
1) Manufacturing/Engineering: Honda is high volume with the experience of quality control, robotics and detailed assembly lines. For the most part, repetition = quality.
I would say this is about the best answer. I read somewhere that Porsche makes more cars in a year then Ferrari has made in its history. Not sure how true that is but just think of how many more cars Honda makes then Porsche let alone Ferrari. All that said Ferrari has come a long way. A lot thanks to the NSX I think.
I would say this is about the best answer. I read somewhere that Porsche makes more cars in a year then Ferrari has made in its history. Not sure how true that is but just think of how many more cars Honda makes then Porsche let alone Ferrari. All that said Ferrari has come a long way. A lot thanks to the NSX I think.
RACECARS are not reliable. :wink:Well though I don't know much about Ferarri. If they put 10% of their efforts in reliability as they do design, it would be the worlds best car.
Porsche probably also replaced more of their engines under warrantee than the entire history of Ferrari. All jokes aside, P car does replace quite a few engines.
I have a friend who owns a 2005 997, he had the engine replaced under warrantee at 15k miles; some thing on the engine pop open while he was on the freeway and the oil drained out before he could get to the side of the freeway. Another friend who had a 2004 Boxer S also had the engine replaced around 26k miles; he didn't tell me the reason; we used to jokingly bashing each other's car, Boxer and S2k. However, I also know a guy (My big brother's boss) with a 996 Turbo with 120k miles on it and claim that he never had any major repair. My big brother is a true believer in P cars because he doesn't believe in Japanese cars. Again, two cases within my circle of friends is pertty high.
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Aren't you suppose to "date an Italian, but marry a German?"
Vance-
BTW, my porsche is THE MOST reliable car I've own to date. Ask yourself how many cars Porsches has produced over the last thirty years, and how many are still on the road today? Ask a new Ferrari owner if he even cares about maintenance costs or why there's a 3 yr waiting list which you even can't get on?
Sure Honda/Toyota/Lexus has built it's reputation on reliability- but others will also agree these cars are boring. As a car enthusiast, I want something that's exciting to drive everytime I start her up (even if I have to sacrifice a little reliability).
Vance-
BTW, my porsche is THE MOST reliable car I've own to date. Ask yourself how many cars Porsches has produced over the last thirty years, and how many are still on the road today? Ask a new Ferrari owner if he even cares about maintenance costs or why there's a 3 yr waiting list which you even can't get on?
Sure Honda/Toyota/Lexus has built it's reputation on reliability- but others will also agree these cars are boring. As a car enthusiast, I want something that's exciting to drive everytime I start her up (even if I have to sacrifice a little reliability).
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For starters, Resources. Honda sold 100,000+ in just civics last year. Not including Hybirds. Ferrari sold 5600 cars, like... in total. Ferrari has like 3000 employees, Honda has 167,000. Ferrari has their one cool new factory, Honda had 22, and that was in 1987. Ferrari has one test department, Honda probably has ten on the first floor of one building. It's akin to comparing Adobe to Microsoft here...
Two, design. Reliability in engineering isn't coincidental, it comes from having good design/process contraints and methodologies to allow for it. Years of perfecting engineering, supply chain management, assembly, automation, manufacturing, testing, re-testing, etc... Do you think the primary engineering design goal of an F-430 is to be reliable and score high in consumer reports? No. It doesn't have to be. Styling, Performance, Customer Want List, etc.. comes first. Like cool stuff- ceramic brakes, 9K RPM, blah.... Which also means as Billy mentioned- similar to a race car things can be made faster/lighter/less reliable by design. It is not supposed to be reliable. Especially when your customers can afford more later. The engine is better than a Formula Atlantic... sure... (not measured in hours between tear down) but still.... if you are 5,000 feet over sea level, at WOT, in 4th gear, at 35F ambient, and while putting the passenger side window up the voltage drops and engine explodes... they tell you not to do that again. New F1 tranny design doesn't go into neutral after three clicks on second position? Don't do that anymore. Honda on the other hand, those same bugs if repro'd would likely be completely unacceptable. They have to have a higher quality bar.
Three, priorities. What happens when something does break? When Ferrari looks at any problem they ultimately are looking at a very small sample set. Each car is hand assembled and each customer service warranty situation is thus case by case. Honda on the other hand has a huge sample set of millions of customers, plus partners, co-firms, dealer network, etc... to make sure they are escalating and solving the right recurring problems- not just the convenient, cheap, or easy-to-solve ones. It's Honda.
Fourth, factoring. Honda makes real world production quality vehicles. Many of the parts are inter-changeable among models, so Honda can afford to dump thirty million dollars... just testing a new ABS or power steering rack or fuel pump design. Ferrari? They probably just call Basch. Honda makes a learning mistake with variable valve timing on one model, they can quickly re-tool and apply it to another. Ferrari makes a mistake after they are tooled and on a deadline... they fix it in the next cool new model down the road. This is really a no-brainer. Their is no fall back and less wiggle room.
In short, reliability is the most expensive part of engineering. You want a reliable Ferrari? Ask them for one. How does 15 million per car sound? Even then, maybe you will get it and maybe you won't.
Reliability as most consumers come to appreciate it comes from real world test experience. Lots of testing and lots of real world experience fixing customer bugs and optimizing a single design. Small minor changes over many years. Little tweaks.
Another wards, a completely different design paradigm.
Two, design. Reliability in engineering isn't coincidental, it comes from having good design/process contraints and methodologies to allow for it. Years of perfecting engineering, supply chain management, assembly, automation, manufacturing, testing, re-testing, etc... Do you think the primary engineering design goal of an F-430 is to be reliable and score high in consumer reports? No. It doesn't have to be. Styling, Performance, Customer Want List, etc.. comes first. Like cool stuff- ceramic brakes, 9K RPM, blah.... Which also means as Billy mentioned- similar to a race car things can be made faster/lighter/less reliable by design. It is not supposed to be reliable. Especially when your customers can afford more later. The engine is better than a Formula Atlantic... sure... (not measured in hours between tear down) but still.... if you are 5,000 feet over sea level, at WOT, in 4th gear, at 35F ambient, and while putting the passenger side window up the voltage drops and engine explodes... they tell you not to do that again. New F1 tranny design doesn't go into neutral after three clicks on second position? Don't do that anymore. Honda on the other hand, those same bugs if repro'd would likely be completely unacceptable. They have to have a higher quality bar.
Three, priorities. What happens when something does break? When Ferrari looks at any problem they ultimately are looking at a very small sample set. Each car is hand assembled and each customer service warranty situation is thus case by case. Honda on the other hand has a huge sample set of millions of customers, plus partners, co-firms, dealer network, etc... to make sure they are escalating and solving the right recurring problems- not just the convenient, cheap, or easy-to-solve ones. It's Honda.
Fourth, factoring. Honda makes real world production quality vehicles. Many of the parts are inter-changeable among models, so Honda can afford to dump thirty million dollars... just testing a new ABS or power steering rack or fuel pump design. Ferrari? They probably just call Basch. Honda makes a learning mistake with variable valve timing on one model, they can quickly re-tool and apply it to another. Ferrari makes a mistake after they are tooled and on a deadline... they fix it in the next cool new model down the road. This is really a no-brainer. Their is no fall back and less wiggle room.
In short, reliability is the most expensive part of engineering. You want a reliable Ferrari? Ask them for one. How does 15 million per car sound? Even then, maybe you will get it and maybe you won't.
Reliability as most consumers come to appreciate it comes from real world test experience. Lots of testing and lots of real world experience fixing customer bugs and optimizing a single design. Small minor changes over many years. Little tweaks.
Another wards, a completely different design paradigm.
As many of you know that Ferrari has gotten a lot better since the 1995 F355.
Interestingly, Ferrari hired quite a few ex Honda F1 engineers in 1993/1994 so they can be ready for the 1995 F1 rule. Which force all V12 and V8 engines to switched to 3.0 liter V10. Ferrari didn't have any experience in V10 prior to the switch. These engineers were allocated to the Sauber F1 team during the late 1990's when they were also powered by Ferrari. The main engineer was name Sato... No, not the current Honda F1 driver.
Did they work on Ferrari road cars? No one knows, but the drastic change between 348 to F355 sure is a huge leap in quality for just one generation of model change, and it happen during the time frame when those engineers were hired to work on the F1 program. Not to mention the 360 with chassis approach similar to the NSX.
Interestingly, Ferrari hired quite a few ex Honda F1 engineers in 1993/1994 so they can be ready for the 1995 F1 rule. Which force all V12 and V8 engines to switched to 3.0 liter V10. Ferrari didn't have any experience in V10 prior to the switch. These engineers were allocated to the Sauber F1 team during the late 1990's when they were also powered by Ferrari. The main engineer was name Sato... No, not the current Honda F1 driver.
Did they work on Ferrari road cars? No one knows, but the drastic change between 348 to F355 sure is a huge leap in quality for just one generation of model change, and it happen during the time frame when those engineers were hired to work on the F1 program. Not to mention the 360 with chassis approach similar to the NSX.
Very true indeed...Ferrari finally built reliablity (somewhat) into the 360 until now. I've spoke with several owners, and the 360s aren't any more expensive to maintain than your MB or Pcars. Currently looking for---> 360 Modena Challenge Stradale (but don't tell my NSX).
You mean... proper?
I doubt they looked at the NSX's suspension geometry for inspiration. :biggrin:
Well they must never drive their cars because a timing belt still costs THOUSANDS of dollars. They didnt switch to chains until the F430, but I dont believe you need to drop the motor in order to do it like a 355.
I agree...most exotics never get driven (silly to me). However, many owners will likely confess that it's the unwanted attention and worrying about the car in public places that eventually causes this to happen. In fact, most have more than one exotic car in their stable to alternate from. Anyways, getting off topic.
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