$2,700 for timing belt??

[dxd]

I don't think Jerry is dishonest at all I am just trying to get some more opinions as to what is currently necessary for a car of that age/mileage. I will probably bring it to Jerry and have him take a look next week. Maybe he will only suggest the TB/WP work?? Thanks for all the input!

P.S. Where do you live in SD? I live in Crown Point/PB. I don't see too many NSX's around!

 

[OneRedNSX]

how do you expect anybody to be able to give you a reasonable estimate of what is necessary on a car they haven't seen?

at that point they can only do one of three things:

1) go by the service intervals specified by Acura
2) go by what they have seen that needed repair on similar sounding vehicles
3) blindly guess based on what MIGHT have gone bad by now


how can you compare ANYBODY without even knowing what you need or what they are suggesting?

 

[Diablo360]

Just to clarify Diablo360, you had ALL the seals and gaskets mentioned above including TB/WP and a valve job for under $1,900? Because I'm sure that's what Jerry is quoting. The OP says "a bunch of hoses and gaskets". Well, how can you call Jerry a crook based on that ambiguous description of services performed? It is very, very possible to accrue such a bill for replacing certain hoses, gaskets and seals--many of which might need replacement after 10 years. I think calling someone who has done a great job for many, many NSX owners over the years a crook outright without knowing all the facts is irresponsible.

Plus, are you going to give him a ride to and from Orange County?

QUOTE]



Yes, I actually did have all that stuff done for $1900.00, along with having my lowering springs installed, new coolant tank installed, new rear brake pads, and some other small stuff.... Come to one of the PAG meets if you can and i'll show you my repair bill.....

No i'm not going to give him a ride from orange county... I lived up in Bel Air when I first bought my car, so that's about the same distance that he is from Laguna Niguel. I had my girlfriend drive down with me the night that I picked up my car and I dropped it off on Wednesday night picked it up friday afternoon fresh and ready to go. When I got my PPI done the selling dealer took it to a local dealer and they quoted me $2300 for TB and WP, and another $400 for rear brake pads. I told them to forget it. I forgot where the dealer took it but it could've been the same one, since he was over on miramar road. Driving down to Laguna from west LA isn't the most convenient thing to do when I need a part installed or maintenance done, but I find a way to do it because the cost savings and my piece of mind justify it.

I'm not saying that Jerry is a con artist and is recommending things that don't need to be done, i'm sure he does need all of that stuff done. All i'm saying is that is way too much money to be paying for those services. Sorry if that came out that way. You guys are all cool and i'm sure Jerry does good work. My apologies once again. I just don't know if it's worth paying $1000.00more over what Ramon charges......?

If he wants to pay more then go ahead, i'm just trying to help out. If it wasn't for all of your guys' help on prime I probably would've payed through the roof for many maintenance/aftermarket parts........

 

[NSXclear]

I agree, Jerry is a terrific guy and does great work. I'm sure he will be willing to work with you on the price if you have any concerns. Maybe if you buy the parts and bring them to him, you can get your cost down.

Just PM me (I'm in SD) and I can help you get 20% off list price from Kearny Mesa Acura and pick up parts locally or you can get them from other dealers mentioned on this forum for a bit cheaper.

Please don't let any San Diego Dealers touch your car. There aren't many people you can trust with your NSX in SD, but Jerry is definitely someone that can do the job.

From what I hear, Ramon is one of the best at working on the NSX. He in not too far from San Diego. Just be fortunate that you live in So. Cali and you have all these options.

 

[NSXGMS]

Yes, I actually did have all that stuff done for $1900.00, along with having my lowering springs installed, new coolant tank installed, new rear brake pads, and some other small stuff.... Come to one of the PAG meets if you can and i'll show you my repair bill.....

No i'm not going to give him a ride from orange county... I lived up in Bel Air when I first bought my car, so that's about the same distance that he is from Laguna Niguel. I had my girlfriend drive down with me the night that I picked up my car and I dropped it off on Wednesday night picked it up friday afternoon fresh and ready to go. When I got my PPI done the selling dealer took it to a local dealer and they quoted me $2300 for TB and WP, and another $400 for rear brake pads. I told them to forget it. I forgot where the dealer took it but it could've been the same one, since he was over on miramar road. Driving down to Laguna from west LA isn't the most convenient thing to do when I need a part installed or maintenance done, but I find a way to do it because the cost savings and my piece of mind justify it.

I'm not saying that Jerry is a con artist and is recommending things that don't need to be done, i'm sure he does need all of that stuff done. All i'm saying is that is way too much money to be paying for those services. Sorry if that came out that way. You guys are all cool and i'm sure Jerry does good work. My apologies once again. I just don't know if it's worth paying $1000.00more over what Ramon charges......?

If he wants to pay more then go ahead, i'm just trying to help out. If it wasn't for all of your guys' help on prime I probably would've payed through the roof for many maintenance/aftermarket parts........

So you had your head gaskets, cam plugs, spool valve, VTEC solenoid seal, WP/TB, valve job, every other belt and every coolant hose repaced for $1,900?

How does Ramon stay in business? Because I'm sure that's exactly the scope of the work Jerry meant based on a blind quote thinking of every possible thing that might need replacement on a ten-year-old car, hypothetically.

You're comparing apples and oranges as far as price. The work Ramon did and the work Jerry quoted are quite different. We never got a complete answer about what exactly the extent of the work Jerry quoted was because it turns out he never saw the car. Knowing that, the price of $2,700 makes even more sense.

I'm sure in the coming weeks if the OP posts his experiences here it will come to light that Jerry's prices are quite similar to Ramon's for the same scope of work.

By stating that it's "way too much money" you are in effect saying he is gouging the customer which is completely baseless.

Ramon is the man, no doubt. But there is no reason, IMO, to go anywhere other than Jerry for these services. I know 10+ NSX owners personally and dozens more who've posted on Prime who have had nothing but good things to say about him and his prices.

 

[katit]

Really?

Thats what Jerry said

 

[katit]

First, replace the water pump. It's a relatively inexpensive part and no additional labor is necessary. It's proper preventive maintenance.

It's ~$200 part I beleive. Why he don't replace pistons and rods as well? Maybe they got old as water pump did?

10k miles, use common sense. I would not do anything but timing belt itself. If car was started every week (most owners do that) then seals will not be dry.

Hoses can be replaced if they go. I don't think anything will happen to those hoses.

TB probably doesn't need to be replaced. But just for the piece of mind it can be done.

I would do this to my car. If you still want to do everything - I would not look for cheapest but for the best person to go to. Jerry sounds like he knows what he does.

 

[nsxtasy]

First, replace the water pump. It's a relatively inexpensive part and no additional labor is necessary. It's proper preventive maintenance.

Second, if there are any problems with any seals and gaskets such as VTEC, spool valve, head etc. now is the time to do it. They can deteriorate over time. Ask Jerry why he thinks they need to be replaced and have him show you. He's very hands-on and should not have any problem showing you why he believes it needs to be done.

The valves do not need adjustment but he might be throwing that in there because he wants to replace your head gaskets, cam plugs or something else. Ask him. Valves only need adjustment every 30-60K miles minimum.

It's very possible after 10 years your hoses need complete replacement. They do deteriorate over time. The hoses are cheap and he might be suggesting you do them all to save labor in the future while the engine is out.

Honestly, $2,700 seems right for replacing everything including hoses, seals and gaskets along with the TB and WP and an valve job. Actually, it seems very reasonable.

It's ~$200 part I beleive. Why he don't replace pistons and rods as well? Maybe they got old as water pump did?

Wow, it sounds like you know absolutely nothing about cars and maintenance! The reason most people replace the water pump is that (a) water pumps DO commonly fail (unlike pistons and rods), (b) it takes a lot of labor to access the water pump to replace it, and (c) it's exactly the same labor as for the timing belt replacement. So, if you replace the water pump now, you won't have to pay for the same labor all over again if it fails later.

Hoses can be replaced if they go. I don't think anything will happen to those hoses.

TB probably doesn't need to be replaced. But just for the piece of mind it can be done.

More terrible advice! The whole idea behind preventive maintenance is that you spend money on your car to prevent failures that almost always (a) are MUCH more costly than the maintenance, and (b) are inconvenient (and a downright PITA) to get fixed. Now, if you would like to drive around with 10 or 17 year old cooling system hoses and timing belt on your car, you're welcome to do so. If your timing belt fails and you're looking at a $10K repair bill, or if a cooling system hose fails while you're out on a date and you have to call for a tow truck, the foolishness of your bad advice here will suddenly become very obvious. (Maybe even to you!)

 

[DDozier]

Thats what Jerry said

Really? Then Jerry is the man, I pulled mine out and it took me about four hours, I do think I could do it again a little faster but 1 hour you would have to be really moving.

Anyway if you go through with the engine removal then you are crazy not to do everything else, including the valve adjustment, out of the car it takes less than an hour, to do in the car is a lot longer. If you do everything now you are good for at least 7 more years with just oil changes. Are you keeping the car for a long time? Are you thinking about a CTSC or other power adders? Are you looking at headers? New Exhaust? All of these things should be considered.

Dave

 

[katit]

Wow, it sounds like you know absolutely nothing about cars and maintenance! The reason most people replace the water pump is that (a) water pumps DO commonly fail (unlike pistons and rods), (b) it takes a lot of labor to access the water pump to replace it, and (c) it's exactly the same labor as for the timing belt replacement. So, if you replace the water pump now, you won't have to pay for the same labor all over again if it fails later.

Really? I guess I don't have lift in my garage and don't do all maintenance to my cars. I didn't do 3 timing belt jobs on my previous Hondas and I don't know where water pump is. I also don't have degree in mechanical engineering.

Water pump is a common item. Not! It's just another myth. I can understand how you replace water pump as preventive maintenance when TB done at 100k miles. Risk is present and there is just a little work involved. Little work means replacing cooland and pump and bleeding system(1 hour) At 10k miles (read first post) water pump is virtually new. Chance of it's failure same as chance that engine will start knocking.

More terrible advice! The whole idea behind preventive maintenance is that you spend money on your car to prevent failures that almost always (a) are MUCH more costly than the maintenance, and (b) are inconvenient (and a downright PITA) to get fixed. Now, if you would like to drive around with 10 or 17 year old cooling system hoses and timing belt on your car, you're welcome to do so. If your timing belt fails and you're looking at a $10K repair bill, or if a cooling system hose fails while you're out on a date and you have to call for a tow truck, the foolishness of your bad advice here will suddenly become very obvious. (Maybe even to you!)

If you work on cars you can determine when hoses become brittle and need to be replaced. Just by feel. I've seen new hoses blowing up.

Leaking seal will not stop you from going to date. Replacing seals that do not leak is not always great idea. New seals may start leaking much sooner then you expect.

I can and do replace hoses "while I'm there" In fact, I just replaced timing chain in my BMW "while there" but because car has 170k miles.

But if you only need belt to prevent yourself from catastrophic engine damage - you don't have to do all that.

If coolant hose goes - you get plenty of time to shut down engine. But replacing good hose just because it's older will not guarantee that something will not brake.

Just my 0.02

P.S. If you fo all this stuff - give this job to the best mechanic. Sometimes it's better when people don't touch things at all. I do lot of work for friends after they service car "at mechanic"

 

[nsxtasy]

Really? I guess I don't have lift in my garage and don't do all maintenance to my cars. I didn't do 3 timing belt jobs on my previous Hondas and I don't know where water pump is. I also don't have degree in mechanical engineering.

Clearly, it's possible to have a lot of qualifications and still give out foolish advice. Here are FACTS that show where your latest post is just flat our wrong:

(a) New hoses aren't as likely to fail as ones that have been on a car for ten years or more. FACT.

(b) You can't always tell whether a hose will fail soon by feel. FACT.

All I can say is, I disagree with pretty much everything you've posted in this topic. I would never let you take a wrench to my car, and I would never buy a car that you were selling or maintaining. But you are welcome to your opinion, and you are welcome to do as little in the way of maintenance to your own car as you like.

One additional point...

As noted above, it's not clear exactly what is included in that $2700 estimate. It's worth noting that the recommended maintenance schedule for the NSX specifies a major service for every 30K miles or 2 years, whichever comes first. This service consists of changing fluids and filters and adjusting the valves, and typically costs $800-1200 by itself. It's VERY important to change those fluids based on time, even if your car doesn't drive the mileage specified; for example, brake fluid absorbs moisture and loses effectiveness over time, even if the car isn't driven. The coolant, which is specified for a similar frequency but at odd intervals, would be flushed as part of replacing the water pump and hoses. The valve adjustment might be based more on mileage than time, but as long as the engine is out of the car anyway, it's easy.

Bottom line, it depends again on exactly what work is being performed, but when you consider that replacing the timing belt and water pump normally costs $1200-1600, the 30K/60K/90K/etc service costs $800-1200, the cooling system hoses cost $300-500 for parts (not that much additional labor), and there might be additional work (e.g. gaskets), suddenly that $2700 estimate looks mighty reasonable.

 

[katit]

I completely agree on fluids. Brake fluid and coolant changes very important.

 

[katit]

Clearly, it's possible to have a lot of qualifications and still give out foolish advice. Here are FACTS that show where your latest post is just flat our wrong:

(a) New hoses aren't as likely to fail as ones that have been on a car for ten years or more. FACT.

(b) You can't always tell whether a hose will fail soon by feel. FACT.

Well. It's all true. Fact is that old hose more likely to fail then new. So, what is the point? I just said that good mechanic can tell if hoses really need replacement. Car has lot of parts to fail. It doesn't mean that you have to go and replace all of them. I agree - if you have money go and replace everything, but I said that it's not necessary at all.

But you are welcome to your opinion, and you are welcome to do as little in the way of maintenance to your own car as you like.

I can show you receipts on how I maintain my cars. You will be surprised. Of course, I'm not selling my cars to you. Some people also seem to take "dealer only" receipts.

I'm really sorry. I replied like this post was in DIY section, which is definitely wrong.

 

[Daedalus]

Obviously it's largely a matter of risk assessment and your level of risk aversion. For example, if you left the pump alone and if you believe there is a 20% chance it will fail, causing a $1000 repair bill, then the economic value of replacing it now along with the belt is (20% * $1000) = $200 (~break-even with the part cost). Of course anyone who couldn't afford the $1000 repair couldn't take the risk anyway (and he/she shouldn't be driving this particular car to begin with).
I think the chance of pump failure before the next TB is due is less than 20%, but that's just 1 part. You have to consider the cumulative economic risk for each item that wears/ages (hoses, seals/gaskets, tensioner bearing). Each carries a tiny risk of failure, and we can only guess how that risk is related to age and mileage (your personal assessment). The penalties are easier to estimate. A failure of a cooling hose could be catastrophic--say you're cruising on the freeway and a hose under the car ruptures without your knowledge. By the time the engine starts making funny noises the damage will be done. Worst case example of course, but the risk is there. Even the smallest drip in my garage from a weepy pump would be enough to make me replace it; others may not mind such a small inconveniece. On the other hand, adding on small jobs to a big job is a marginal cost and quite manageable. What if someone only does the belt now ($1500), then the pump leaks next year ($1600), then a seal starts leaking a year after that ($600?), then the belt tenioner goes bad (from the leaking pump--$1600), etc. Unlikely, but we just don't know what the odds really are. In addition, risk is based on averages, not limits.
I too have a degree in M.E., have a lift in my garage, do my own work on 4 of my 5 vehicles, and have done 2 belts/3 chains. I like having less to worry about. I'm not comfortable with my ability to assess the risk, and the worst-case costs aren't acceptable, so I act conservatively. No rights or wrongs IMO.

 

[katit]

It's more like buying insurance. Some people buy insurance. Insurance companies work for profit. I don't buy road hazard insurance and I don't buy CPO. I never regretted it and saved money overall.

Would I replace WP if it was my car? No. Because it's my labor and I can do it if it fails which is not likely at all. WP does not get worse with time AFAIK. It's mileage related. I give it 1% chance failure before next TB job. Even if it will fail - it will be sometime right where another TB will be due or even overdue.

Would I replace hoses on my car? Most likely. Because they cheap. But this is because my labor free (this is my hobby, I enjoy working on cars)
Why I'm not suggesting paying for ALL of it? Because I don't think it worth it with given scenario. If person will feel more comfortable with all above done - excellent. Pay the bill and feel safe. Insurance.

So, to summarize, I'm sorry for giving my honest opinion. I just tried to help person save money. If majority of this board disagree with me on that - thats fine. Also calling somebody fool doesn't look like a good manner in conversation. I think from now on I will be only participating in DIY section.

 

[NSXGMS]

So, to summarize, I'm sorry for giving my honest opinion. I just tried to help person save money. If majority of this board disagree with me on that - thats fine. Also calling somebody fool doesn't look like a good manner in conversation. I think from now on I will be only participating in DIY section.

I don't recall anyone calling you a fool outright but suggesting the TB does not need replacement on a ten-year-old car is foolish advice. Based on my interpretation of the FAQ NSX timing belts seem to be more sensitive to time than to mileage.

That's an insurance policy I would take out any day of the week.

...Would I replace WP if it was my car? No. Because it's my labor and I can do it if it fails...

Obviously your experience with NSXs is limited. The WP is TB driven. If it goes kablooey so does the TB. If it fails I hope you've got a lot of spare time to do that engine rebuild yourself. And the labor might be free but parts will not be. :frown:

Indeed, the WP has only 10K miles on it but since WPs have failed in the past, presumably with less than 90K miles (since they're almost always replaced at the same interval as the TB) and the WP is TB driven meaning when the WP goes so does the TB, I would cough up the $200 or less and just do it like everyone else on the planet does.

But that's just me. Is it absolutely imperative that the WP gets done? Probably not. But giving blanket advice of "do not do it" is foolish as well. Let the mechanic inspect the WP (per Acura guidelines) and allow him and his mechanic to make the determination.

A $200 insurance policy to prevent $5,000+ in damage over the next 90K miles doesn't seem too bad to me.

 

[matteni]

Not to add to the fire but consider replacing the harmonic balancer too. Do a search and you will see some good information for which to base your decision. Good luck - sounds like you have a nice car worth professionally maintaining and enjoying. I don't know about you but it if difficult to enjoy these cars to their fullest when you are worried about maintenance.

 

[NSXGMS]

Not to add to the fire but consider replacing the harmonic balancer too. Do a search and you will see some good information for which to base your decision. Good luck - sounds like you have a nice car worth professionally maintaining and enjoying. I don't know about you but it if difficult to enjoy these cars to their fullest when you are worried about maintenance.

Good point. Ken, in your opinion is the harmonic balancer something that is more time or mileage sensitive?

 

[katit]

Ok, you all convinced me. I'm definitely wrong. Reading between lines in best forum traditions. I'm done with replying to this thread

 

[nsxtasy]

Good point. Ken, in your opinion is the harmonic balancer something that is more time or mileage sensitive?

That's a good question, and I'm not sure of the answer. The harmonic balancer pulley (crankshaft pulley) consists of a big rubber part inside of the metal outside pulley. The problem that can occur is that the rubber part separates from the metal part, and it can dig into, and wear through, the timing belt cover. That's what happened to mine, and I know of some other cases in which that has happened. Rubber parts (like the timing belt and cooling system hoses) can dry out and separate and crack over time, regardless of mileage, so I think it makes sense to replace them as a preventive measure. I plan on replacing my pulley any time the timing belt and water pump are done (not because of labor savings - there isn't much, since the pulley doesn't require that much work to replace - but because the service interval is appropriately long).

Another interesting question is whether cars that are tracked are more likely to have the pulley disintegrate. Most of the failures I am familiar with have occurred on heavily tracked cars. But I'm not sure whether that's because of an actual correlation between the failure and track use, or because I know a lot of folks who track their cars.

 

[DDankew]

I would definitely have the TB,WP and valve job done. I had Ramon (Niguel Motors) do my inspection and he is a great guy to work with. Since I live in SF, I had Don (Hill Top) to do my 30K service, hoses, fluids, TB and WP for $ 2200, so the $ 2700 he quoted you is fair plus any hidden hoses that needed replacing.

Mine was an '91 with 26K miles so I had everything done as preventative measure.

Peace.

 

[Big_D]

That is a good deal considering the work to be done. Jerry is the local NSX GURU and won't rip you off. I've had my car serviced there and am very happy with the results.

Don't skimp out on maintenence. If you want to do that, buy a CIVIC.

 

[dcrandon]

I wonder how often water pumps really do go out.

When you think about it, for the last 20+ years Honda and independent repair shops have unofficially recommended replacing the water pump at the same time as the timing belt since the labor is the same.

But Honda has never "officially" recommended this.

This replacement schedule has been recomm. ever since Honda was burned in the 80's when they didn't recommend ANY replacement schedule for the timing belt, and then a lot of civics and CRX's had to have expensive repairs when they broke at around 50,000.

So...considering we are now 20 years down the road, is there any chance that Honda has increased longevity of the water pump so it could be replaced only as needed?

On a "regular" Honda or Acura, the labor charge is much less than it used to be for timing belt replacement. I remember back in the 80's that dealers and independet repair places would charge $3-400 for civics and such to replace this stuff. Now its less than $200 (not including the pump).

What do you all think?

 

[nsxtasy]

is there any chance that Honda has increased longevity of the water pump so it could be replaced only as needed?

Well, you could always risk it on your own car; if it turns out you're wrong, you can spend for all the labor all over again. That's your choice. As Clint Eastwood said, “You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?”

On a "regular" Honda or Acura, the labor charge is much less than it used to be for timing belt replacement. I remember back in the 80's that dealers and independet repair places would charge $3-400 for civics and such to replace this stuff. Now its less than $200 (not including the pump).

What do you all think?

I think you're mistaken; it costs more than ever to replace a water pump (same labor hours as years ago, but hourly labor rates are much higher now).

 

[NSXGMS]

So...considering we are now 20 years down the road, is there any chance that Honda has increased longevity of the water pump so it could be replaced only as needed?

What do you mean by "as needed"? Acura recommends inspection of the water pump at 90K miles or 6 years.

If I knew that water pumps had failed in the past and that if one were to fail, my TB would break, and that it would save hours and hours of labor to replace the WP at the same time as the TB, I would not hesitate for one second to replace my WP at the same interval as the TB.

So, if you decide that 90K/72 mos. is too soon to replace the WP, when do you replace it? We know it must be replaced preventively for if it breaks, so will the TB. So it must have it's own interval. If not at 90K/72 mos then when?

If the interval is less than 180K/144 mos one will necessarily have to replace the WP at a point in time which comes before your TB service interval. You'll be spending for another TB/WP service in between regularly scheduled TB services.

Even if the WP lasts consistently for 180K miles, which I would not try to find out, it would only save the owner $200 over the course of 180K mi/144 mos. Now the insurance poilcy just got a lot cheaper.

The money saved by electing not to replace the WP is quite minimal, especially when spread out over time. And since it's not a part that can afford to break on the car I am perplexed as to why there's all this resistance to doing it, like it's an Acura conspiracy to sell an extra WP every 6 years to each NSX owner...

In the case of the OP, while his WP is 10 years old it has >10K miles on it. This is an unusual case. If he elects not to replace it then he will have a 17-year-old WP with potentially 100K on it. It's a judgment call I suppose but all things being equal, for $200, I would do it. If it were an extra $1000, maybe not.