A Mathamatical Nightmare-Odds must be astronomical.

[yojack1]

Been a few weeks since I took the NSX out. But on Saturday, went on a laidback drive with the roof removed. Hwy. 280, the short stretch between San Francisco and San Jose. A sign says "Worlds Most Beautiful Freeway."

Mid 70's , clear blue skies, oak trees scattered on rolling hills of golden grass. Then there was the low lying fog bank. Like a giant white wave trying to cascade over the coastal ridge running parallel to the freeway. Indeed beautiful.

I've often wonder,[Since I love thinking about unexplainable subjects-Here we go] could there be another place in the universe where some high form of life would experience such a day?

Before you call me crazy, think about it. Up until mankinds recent history, the earth was considered the center of the universe, believing otherwise was not in ones best interest. We now know thru math that there could be countless earths out there.

However, if some Martian was to experience something similar to my drive, someplace in the galaxy, just a few little details would have to fall precisly into place. All the random, chaotic, lucky, supernatural and mathamatical fallout could never be duplicated. It's like fingerprints or snowflakes, no two are alike. It's mindboggling!

I guess what I'm asking is, Do you think there are other earths with intelligent life that can drive an NSX, or could'nt there be just one, ours?
How lucky it seems to have lived!

THINGS THAT MIGHT COME IN HANDY, TO BE LIKE US!

A Sun just like ours, same size, age and dynamics

A planet that spins at the right speed on the correct axis, the perfect distance from it's star, good blend of elements with the key being life giving water.

A matching moon in the correct orbit that provides the gravitational tug that gives a planet a heartbeat.

Millions of years to settle down and evolve.

The perfect meteor to wipe out the dominant ancient species giving intelligence a chance to rise.

No humans to SCREW-UP all this unbelievable good fortune.

Oooooops, I THINK THAT PLANET JUST GOT ......

 

[sahtt]

It's even more mind blowing then that, but it's proportionally alleviated statistically by the sheer magnitude of our universe.

Don't forget the importance of our atmosphere's perfect makeup, the perfect tilt of the earth's axis, and most interesting but lengthy to discuss-the fact that all heavy elements are born from super nova explosions and that we managed to also get the perfect proportion of various elements to let all this happen, and in conjunction with the variables you mentioned relating to the size of the planet [gravity] and the properties of not just our sun but our solar system [asteroid belt could cause some problems if it was shifted the tiniest bit].

If you can't tell, I took some astronomy courses. Maybe one too many, maybe 100 not enough.

 

[fullracehonda]

since there is no end to...space, i believe their are inifnity planets exactly like ours, and infinity planets exactly like ours but i pushed reply on this messege 1 millionth billionth of a second after, infinity number exactly like ours where the nsx is a "honda" in north america, etc etc etc etc and so on and so fourth, you cant say there is not because you cant see to the end of space, so yes, some little green guy is probably on your nice nsx drive right now, an infinity number of them:tongue:

 

[Dhalsim]

my head hurts.......

 

[CL65 Captain]

Ok, now lay off the bong - or at least share! :tongue:

 

[sahtt]

It's not technically infinite (you can calculate/measure it), but it is constantly expanding forever. Still pretty nuts.

 

[Dtrigg]

Jack, it's the fog bank at Twin Peaks...

Doug

 

[fullracehonda]

It's not technically infinite (you can calculate/measure it), but it is constantly expanding forever. Still pretty nuts.

explain?

what is there outside the borders of.... "space" ?

 

[sahtt]

explain?

what is there outside the borders of.... "space" ?

You can calculate both the rate of expansion and age of the universe which started from a central point and expanded, therefore you can calculate how "big" it is in light years across. If you take the milky way galaxy for instance, if you measure all surrounding light emitting stars/galaxies, everything is moving away from the milky way galaxy on all sides.

As for what's outside, you are thinking too much like a human. Can't say for sure, but it's fairly safe to say the universe "is" and there is no outside of the universe.

 

[Hrant]

You can calculate both the rate of expansion and age of the universe which started from a central point and expanded, therefore you can calculate how "big" it is in light years across. If you take the milky way galaxy for instance, if you measure all surrounding light emitting stars/galaxies, everything is moving away from the milky way galaxy on all sides.

As for what's outside, you are thinking too much like a human. Can't say for sure, but it's fairly safe to say the universe "is" and there is no outside of the universe.

I try to keep up by watching Discovery but perhaps as you stated because I think like a human can't seem to "understand" the following - in layman's term:

If it all started with at a single infinitesmally small point/dust with full of energy, (a) how did that dust get formed initially - unless we are back to the circular notion that there is no begining before the big bang? (b) and if there was no space/universe before it, how can space be continuously created by expansion - which be definition if something is exapnding then it must have a priori "space" to expand to no? (c) or is space being "created" too out of what, the initial bang, but then again if it can expand infinitely it means there is something beyond space no?

Just asking!

 

[yojack1]

SAHTT, How far in light years to next couple stars? Isn't it like, in the hundreds?
Rich and Famous not included.:smile:

 

[White92]

If you're a bible reader, it usually makes references to "worlds". So yes, there could be other worlds out there just like ours. There is no way to wrap ones head around that concept.

Example: Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[Frank Oles]

Yes, but how fast can your "space" lap the 'ring?

 

[sahtt]

I try to keep up by watching Discovery but perhaps as you stated because I think like a human can't seem to "understand" the following - in layman's term:

If it all started with at a single infinitesmally small point/dust with full of energy, (a) how did that dust get formed initially - unless we are back to the circular notion that there is no begining before the big bang? (b) and if there was no space/universe before it, how can space be continuously created by expansion - which be definition if something is exapnding then it must have a priori "space" to expand to no? (c) or is space being "created" too out of what, the initial bang, but then again if it can expand infinitely it means there is something beyond space no?

Just asking!

Nobody knows or claims to know scientifically how that original mass "became". When the "big bang" theory was first created and then studied, quickly came the question was there "one" big bang or is it a process that repeats an infinite amount of times. By repeat, I mean there is a supernova like explosion from this mini black hole type structure of "infinite" density and mass (even though it's not, it also can be calculated to an extent thanks to gravity and some excellent telescopes of late) which continues to expand, forming galaxies, planets, "us", then it reaches a point where the energy cannot overcome gravity, and then it collapses on itself and does it all over. However, it was calculated that in fact it surpassed the "limit" needed to counter the force of gravity, therefore it expands in all directions forever (at least this time around I suppose). Currently my past professor [he has actually been on the discovery channel several times, I'd recognize his name instantly and have one of his books in my room but can't recall it now, anyhow he's #1 at Univ of Tx in austin in the astronomy department] among several other guys are heavily researching this odd pattern of supermassive black holes being in the center of all galaxies they can get a grip on data wise and they believe it may produce an explanation of how the big bang originated.

There is plenty of room for God and creationism in this science which so many think contradicts it which is not necessarily the case. I have no opinions on this and very little creationism knowledge so can't help you there.

Hopefully that at least sort of answered your first couple questions. To the last question, the one I referred to before as thinking "too human" is due to our nature. We do not think naturally in space time, which is how everything "actually" works. Time as we know it is irrelevant in astronomy, it's only pertinent to our little situation on earth (earth's gravity, the sun's gravity, etc.) Arguably gravity or any source of "pulling" between masses also does not exist, it's just bent space time. It is certainly mind bending to think the universe can grow without growing "into" some other space, but it's understood by many that the universe actually creates this space, it does not intrude in to it. So no, there does not necessarily have to be anything beyond space, at least not anything we currently can define or imagine which is all that matters for us and our puny minds.

 

[Hrant]

Appreciate the explanation and still wondering the black holes and hows with my puny brain, and if the bent space is being reshaped rather than expanding to the beyond then it is defined unless our language is limiting our logic .............. but for now I will settle and be satisfied with René Descartes: 'cogito ergo sum'

One of the less cantankerous and most welcomed off topic discussions on Prime. :wink:

 

[sahtt]

SAHTT, How far in light years to next couple stars? Isn't it like, in the hundreds?
Rich and Famous not included.:smile:

The closest is Proxima Centauri, of the Alpha Centauri star group. It's only a little over 4 light years away. But remember, one light year is traveling at 299,792,458 m/s for one year. To put that in to perspective, the fastest spaceship currently being produced [it's actually heading for pluto] can go about 30,000mph, up to 50,000mph using gravity as a sling shot if you time it all -very- carefully. Given 1 mph = 0.44704 meters/second, that means gravity assisted it can go 22,352 m/s, or a tiny fraction (think something like 1/10,000) of one percent of the speed of light.

So let's laymen it up a little more, that means just to get to the closest star, much less any real distance across our galaxy, much less across the universe, using all gravity assisted sling shot speeds which obviously are not always attainable [think going around jupiter towards pluto], it would take over 50,000 years. Perhaps even more startling is that you'd have to convince roughly 2,000 generations just to reproduce, sit on the space ship, then die, just to make it!

Ross 248 will actually be the closest star in about 40,000 AD. Remember, everything is moving all the time, even our solar system and galaxy through the universe.

 

[sahtt]

Appreciate the explanation and still wondering the black holes and hows with my puny brain, and if the bent space is being reshaped rather than expanding to the beyond then it is defined unless our language is limiting our logic .............. but for now I will settle and be satisfied with René Descartes: 'cogito ergo sum'

One of the less cantankerous and most welcomed off topic discussions on Prime. :wink:

You should try finding them. They are completely invisible and literally suck all light in to them, making them invisible even if you pointed a light right at them. They only exist through trial and error and extremely detailed studies of gravity's effect on the orbits/relationships between stars. It's absolutely stunning how much we know for how little we've been here and how little we've explored. I remember learning how they calculated the age of the universe and it still amazes me. The craziest part is we can see the beginning of the early stages (13bn years ago) of the universe because of the rate the universe expanded the light, or evidence in this case, is still visible if you look far enough in to the past. Pretty nuts.

 

[steveny]

sometimes just a single blade of grass puts me in awe. No place else that we know of in the universe does anything grow. In fact even if something were planted anywher else nothing would become of it.

 

[sahtt]

sometimes just a single blade of grass puts me in awe. No place else that we know of in the universe does anything grow. In fact even if something were planted anywher else nothing would become of it.

Very true, the previously mentioned professor goes berserk if they even find a square yard of ice on a polar cap.

 

[lowellhigh79]

My partner is an astrophotographer/ lecturer and many of his pictures have been published. As he puts it, in laymen's terms, the likelihood of another being from the next star/solar system stumbling upon/finding us, would be the same as an ant, walking from Anchorage, and accidentally finding us in Boston. However, as enormous as space is, it is still smaller than our imagination.

Regards,

Danny

 

[yojack1]

I'm very impressed with Sahtt [first name would be nice] on this subject and in particular, his style and delivery. It's complex and difficult to comprehend but thats what makes it so fascinating.
So now that we have an idea how far stars are, has anybody calculated a percentage of stars not only with planets with possible life, but ones that could incubate intelligence.
With that, whether it's 1 out of 100, 1 out of 100,000, or 1 out of 1,000,000 we could estimate how far [in light years] away the closest Martian might be.
As you can tell, I'm leading up to another unidentified flying question.
Can't wait [HINT] .

 

[NSXGMS]

As for what's outside, you are thinking too much like a human. Can't say for sure, but it's fairly safe to say the universe "is" and there is no outside of the universe.

Anything outside our universe operates on a level we can't perceive or measure--yet--but Hawking believes there is only one universe and nothing else. So far, the only indication and the prevailing theories support nothing outside of our universe.

The chances for other life in the universe is basically a mathematical certainty. Life has started and been wiped out and started again many times on this planet--just in the last billion or so years. Since there are trillions of terrestrial planets with secondary atmospheres (the same physical characteristics as Earth) life on them is essentially mathematically certain, however it is very likely that we will never come into contact with this life.

Perhaps even the most advanced form of life in the universe that has already created infinitely powerful artificial intelligence and incredible levels of technology cannot yet (or ever) leave it's galaxy. If, in fact, light speed cannot be physically overcome in any way then there is a virtual guarantee that we will never contact other intelligent life.

People sometimes don't really have a grasp on how big the universe is. The entire Star Trek saga takes place entirely within the Milky Way and they can travel at thousands of times the speed of light. There are over 100 billion galaxies in the universe. Do the math.

 

[Hrant]

Anything outside our universe operates on a level we can't perceive or measure--yet--but Hawking believes there is only one universe and nothing else. So far, the only indication and the prevailing theories support nothing outside of our universe.

If there is an outside, that defines a boundary. If there is no outside and our universe is the only one, then this means there was a zero and it became one by expanding albeit the shape is changing but not the size?

I am sure the astrophysicists and all the other acronym scientist understand this or have theories as to the how, but at its most elementary level, the simplest questions seem to be the most difficult to explain in scientific endeavors. I restate:

(a) If the universe is expanding - which I too followed on Discovery channel when they had the series, then it is expanding into a "space" that it didn't have before. If there is "space" outside the universe, then where does this lead, what else is in that space, how did that space get "created" or originate?

(b) If it is not expanding but reshaping itself by stars imploding and exploding then it has a finite or defined size. What is outside that size? If there is no outside how can it be finite?

(c) If it all started with an infinitesimal point of super energy that became the bing bang, where did this single energy point originate from? Are we to assume there was no beginning and there is no end unless the end is back to that single point of energy when all the gaseous state is consumed?

If I recall correctly, and don't quote on me on the exact numbers, if we assume that the time span since the bing bang can be spaced as 365 day, then the earth's history is something like in hours and life on earth is something like 2-3 seconds or less.

Perhaps Creation after all in a more metaphysical sense provides the answers. Many civilizations believed there was a before and after life, and a few were more advanced than we currently purport to be.

As I said, perhaps our language is limiting our scope of comprehension.

 

[fullracehonda]

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~family guy

 

[C-speed]

Very interesting and fun topic. I've been reading/studying this stuff my whole life.

I would just like to add contrary to what Sahtt stated (i'm sure he just mis-typed), the universe is NOT infinately expanding. The universe is indeed expanding, but at a decreasing rate. Thus, at one point in the distant future, the universe will stop expanding, and begin to contract.

Once it contracts back to a single point of mass, a new big bang will occur.

Again, this shows that our universe began with a big bang, will eventually end, and a new universe will be created, cyclically - over and over again. However, this in no way (scientifically) shows how or where all the mass/elements/energy originally came from. That's where religion comes into play.