Any lawyers on Prime? What are the ups & downs?

[REFLUX]

I'm currently thinking of pursuing an LLB but wanted to do some research before putting my crosshairs on the degree/bar.

What I'd like to know are the Ups & Downs to being a Lawyer because there is more to life than a career but a career can greatly affect the rest of your life.

After speaking with a few other professionals & volunteering for a small firm, all I've come to discover is that:

1) For the first several years of working for a firm, you got to work your butt off while not getting paid a whole lot (I guess that's all relative). But for some reason 60-70 hour work weeks keep coming into mind.

2) After being a lawyer for many years, you become quite jaded & cynical.

3) Lawyer = divorce with spouse. I've yet to meet a seasoned lawyer who is with their first spouse & is still happy.

4) People initially wanted to become lawyers because of the money.

 

[WeakestLink]

The median profits per partner figure at America's 100 top-grossing law firms in 2003 was $792,500, up almost 9.3 percent from 2002. The average was even more astonishing: $930,700, up about 10 percent. Ten years ago, million-dollar partner paydays were limited to two or three firms. No more. Thirty-two of the firms on this year's chart enjoyed average profits per partner of $1 million or more, and they aren't just the usual New York and Los Angeles suspects. Bingham McCutchen, Dechert, and Howrey Simon Arnold & White were all over $1 million for the first time, each with profitability jumps of 14 percent or more. Partnership was very, very good to a lot of big-firm lawyers in 2003.

Here's the whole article: http://www.law.com/jsp/law/amlaw100.jsp

 

[REFLUX]

Thanks for the link but it just goes with my fourth point.
People get drawn to law because of huge monetary figures.

Did you notice how many times that article said, "If they make it"

There is obviously a condition to making the big bucks.
Whether it be a poor personal life, becoming an alcoholic, or some other affliction.


Guess there aren't any lawyers on Prime

 

[GOTTSPD]

Guess there aren't any lawyers on Prime

Nope, there's at least one... Me.

I'm assuming you are in Canada (the LLB thing gave it away). Anyway, I absolutely love being a lawyer, but with regard to $, you have to realize, an analysis of big firm salaries is entirely misleading. Most attorneys don't make anywhere close to that kind of $.

I'm 33 and have only been practicing for about 5 years, but its all I've ever wanted to do. I enjoy helping my clients (I represent small and medium sized businesses (serving as "outside" general counsel).

With regard to marriage, most couples won't make it through law school as law school can have a very negative pyschological impact on people. Nevertheless, most of the folks in my firm are married and have been for many, many years. I don't know if they are happy or not though....

 

[Ennesssex]

Guess there aren't any lawyers on Prime

Or they are just not replying to your thread........might want to try a search and see if this topic came up before.

 

[RSO 34]

Guess there aren't any lawyers on Prime

You would be wrong because I am one also. However, I chose not to respond because my simple answer is that if you have to ask the question, then you should not pursue that profession.

 

[REFLUX]

GOTTSPD:
Yeah I realize that a lot of people go into law with their eyes on the Dollar but frankly, that isn't what I'm focusing on.
Sure money is important, got to pay the bills & buy the toys but money isn't everything.
How do you find your quality of life, especially since you are in what I believe to be the "work horse" phase of your career?
What does your typical day consist of?

I'm kind of looking for an ideal aspect of becoming a lawyer. Having a job that pays half decent, is flexible, is never boring & is dynamic, something new everyday kind of deal.
Would it be naive to search for those things in a Law Career?


RSO34:
haha well that's a very good answer!
So it's one of those Passion type careers?
If you got it, you love it, if not you'll hate it.
But I'm asking because I've had little exposure to Lawyers for most my life and I don't want to base a potential career decision on what Hollywood & fiction books deems to be like.
Approaching it with a "Knowledge is power" mentality

 

[Russ]

You are doing the smart thing by gathering information regarding career choices before taking the plunge.

1) For the first several years of working for a firm, you got to work your butt off while not getting paid a whole lot (I guess that's all relative). But for some reason 60-70 hour work weeks keep coming into mind.

It depends on where you work. When I was an associate at a big Manhattan firm I got paid a whole lot, commuted in chauffered town cars during off hours (when I typically went home), and expensed four star meals without anyone batting an eye. I also worked for weeks on end without a day off, flew back & forth from NYC to the west coast repeatedly for legal proceedings, and worked with people who would still not be happy if you spent 168 hours/week on the job. There were partners at the firm, senior partners, working every weekend. Why endeavor to make partner, I thought, when you still have to work every weekend, and soon I left the biglaw life.

2) After being a lawyer for many years, you become quite jaded & cynical.

I'd say with respect to the the legal system, there is a certain truth to that, although I would argue that it's not so much becoming "jaded & cynical" as it is becoming necessarily pragmatic.

3) Lawyer = divorce with spouse. I've yet to meet a seasoned lawyer who is with their first spouse & is still happy.

That would be true in my case, although my first marriage barely made it through law school.

4) People initially wanted to become lawyers because of the money.

I became a lawyer since I was unhappy with the general Windows-centric direction of the IT industry and wanted a new challenge outside of IT, and yes, to make more money. Ironically, I ended up a patent attorney working on a huge web-technology-related litigation. After I quit the biglaw life, I opened my own practice and I've never been happier. I'm in charge of my own day, I have a steadily-building clientele, and the freedom (and responsibility) of being my own boss. I practice all types of law, including patent, and the work is varied, interesting and satisfying.

Go for it.

 

[REFLUX]

Again, thank you everybody for your posts, it is helping me a great deal


So it sounds like opening your own practice is key to having a flexible life in law.

I imagine that it would be important to gather experience by working with an established firm after graduating.
Since starting your own practice might not work well because of lack of experience/exposure.

Now there have been 2 people who have mentioned "relationships not making it thru law school"
Is it really THAT brutal?

Russ:
Since you practice patent law, how do you go about getting new clients?
Ads? Referrals? "Patent chasing" (instead of "ambulance chasing" )
Do you go to certain conferences that feature blossoming entrepreneurs & inventors/designers/etc?

 

[liftshard]

Again, thank you everybody for your posts, it is helping me a great deal
Now there have been 2 people who have mentioned "relationships not making it thru law school"
Is it really THAT brutal?

If you want to do well, it is incredibly time-consuming. I knew of almost no relationships which survived. Even engagements where really pretty chicks had great big diamonds on their hands for 2.5 years.

An LLB will not get you to "lawyer" in the USA. You'll need a J.D., as I have, in order to sit for bar exams.

As far as big $$$ goes, the only ones who earn that are big-firm partners. The *average* lawyer probably makes like $35,000 and they are among the tops in percentages of those who default on student loans.

To be a big-firm partner, you'll probably need to go to a big-time school. That means you need to pick big-time, connected parents. If you didn't do that, expect a smaller pot of gold at the end of this rainbow.

Also, excepting mostly intellectual property practice, firms have associate billings minimums which are CRUSHINGLY onerous. Most are 2200+. As you know, there are about 2080 working hours in a 52-week work year. So, you'll need to BILL more than 40/week. The most efficient attorneys can bill 8 by working 9. That's unrealistic. Expect to bill 8 working 10 or more. If your firm requires 2400, then you do the math. Working all of Saturday is very, very common.

It is also not uncommon for big-firm attorneys to go home very late. Our CivPro professor was such a candidate. A black woman with a lofty degree, Harvard or something, recounted stories of routinely taking Lexis/Nexis's service update interruption window as an excuse to go home. This occurred nightly at 2am. They'd be back to work by 7 or so. Yes, it was in chauffered limousines.

If you are an IP attorney, you can expect 1700-1800 billable req'ts. The reason for this is that we are all scientists or engineers and we CAN. To sit for the PTO exam requires a true technical undergraduate degree and so it, by nature, locks out all but a couple percent or so of JDs. The rest of the attorneys bust @ss by and large a helluva lot more. Expect to have little life, for life. I got out of law because I could earn more at the start in software and I outearned my divorce lawyer, who is not a big-firm partner, easily.

But, I really got no sympathy for lawyers who have no lives. They studied polysci and took garbage degrees out of college or whatever. It's either that or a career in retail.

 

[liftshard]

You are doing the smart thing by gathering information regarding career choices before taking the plunge.
Why endeavor to make partner, I thought, when you still have to work every weekend,

It's to buy the even MORE senior partners' mistress a newer Mercedes.

Law partnerships are pyramids. The guys at the top get the most dough. When I was a clerk, I earned $13/hr and was billed at $80. Doing paralegal BS while in school, they payed $8 and billed $80. Associates might make $40 to start out, of the $200 they were billed at. Some firms, mostly the ones I was looking at, were offering a percentage of billing after a few years, 2-4 or so for an associate, and had shorter partner tracks. However, these were usually IP botiques. Any big general or corporate law firm, forget it. You aren't seeing a percentage of your billing until you make partner. And, they'll let you know if you're not on that track or not...a 9 YEAR track.

Often, firms are reluctant to promote ppl to partner if they do not have the right degree from the right school. The most prestigious and richest firms are this way. I knew a guy in school married to a girl who was the daughter of a hiring partner at a DC firm. But this firm ONLY hired Harvard grads; nobody else. Even the son-in-law can't get hired. School-based nepotism is common and these guys have a lot of clout. I sat in a senior partner's office at Kirkpatrick & Lockhart here in DC and listened to the partner get his son a job w/ the AZ Atty General's office. That's clout, familial connections, nepotism. Very rampant in law.

It's something to definitely consider when you are looking at earnings and where you're going to be 10 years from now.

 

[O-Ace]

I was also thinking of going to law school, but now I'm having 2nd thoughts. My undergrad is in Information Systems (graduate in a year or so) and I'm doing well in the IT career so the money in law isn't really my motivation. I just want to do something different; been in IT since 1997

-Awais

 

[MJK]

ME degree, MBA degree and law school dropout here. I found out that I wanted to do IP law, and was not at the right school for it. I work regularly with IP lawyers, and it seems like the small firm guys are the happiest. I've toyed with the idea of going back (to a better school), but there are a few things that stop me:

1. I make just as as much as 90% of them
2. I work less than 90% of them
3. Chem Es and EEs seem the preferred undergrads, with MEs already going in as the low man on the totem pole. IT has value I am sure, but just not in the areas I deal with so I don't know how they compare to the other degrees.
4. NO family connections here, and hesitant to take on the debt. When viewed as an opportunity cost, I would almost certainly come out behind.

It is an interesting feild, but look before you leap. I would also identify what AREA of law you want before you leap, and go the best school you can for that area.

 

[O-Ace]

It is an interesting feild, but look before you leap. I would also identify what AREA of law you want before you leap, and go the best school you can for that area.

I was thinking of going into IP/Computer Law. I would only go into it if I was accepted in one of the top schools. University of Chicago is my first choice because I don't want to relocate. Northwestern would be 2nd choice. Ofcourse if I were accepted to Harvard, Yale, Stanford or the like, I might consider moving. Right now, I'm just doing my hw on law. Will take the LSAT next year.

-Awais

 

[flaminio]

3) Lawyer = divorce with spouse. I've yet to meet a seasoned lawyer who is with their first spouse & is still happy.

Probaby true, if the couple were married before the one started on a career in law. I know some lawyers who got married for the first time after their careers were well established, and they're getting on just fine.

 

[REFLUX]

Cool, great comments everyone!

For those of you who are/were practicing law, why did you choose the field you practice(d) in?
Was it because you had personal interest in the related industry?

And as for the divorce bit, I guess it all depends on the couple. The lawyers I'm thinking of were married/divorced after they were well into their career.