Connecticut school shooting

[Jimbo]

The mother was a gun collector apparently. The guns were legally purchased as far as we know. Perhaps the mother could have secured the guns better, but we don't yet know how the son got the guns. He was 20 and wasn't able to purchase guns/ammo in that state. Even if they do an extensive family background or mental health check, things change. Perhaps the mother bought these guns when the kid was 5 y.o. I think it's way too early to make judgements about how the current gun laws/regs had an impact on this tragedy. We do know the guy played video games for years. Perhaps we should ban violent first-person shooting video games? Is is possible that such violent shoot-up games affect behavior of certain already-unstable young people? Were there warning signs about this guy that went unheeded for years?

 

[TURBO2GO]

We have something in the order of 300 million guns in this country. Japan bans all gun ownership, even by law enforcement. They've also never had a gun culture in their history where gun ownership by ruled citizens was deemed acceptable. Japan is also a police state. Switzerland has laws requiring ownership of weapons by citizens along with mandatory training. Really what it comes down to is we have a cultural problem exacerbated by the presence of guns. We'd pretty much have to become a police state in order for a gun ban to work or to enforce laws some want to impose. That's doesn't even come close to addressing what we do about the 300 million guns out there now. Chicago and DC have some of the strictest laws regarding firearms in our nation yet black teens are serving as target practice in these areas. It's a complex problem that starts with people.

Not sure what you mean by we would have to be a "police state". Yes there are a lot of existing guns out there but you have to start some place. Not many people will keep a kilo of cocaine in their house knowing they would go to jail for it. If there's enough incentive to get rid of guns, 90+% will go away.

I agree with you there is no simple solution but the way we are going on now certainly isn't one. The thing is any small change you try to make is met with huge resistance from the gun lobby because it hurts their bottom dollar and so they get cranking again with their lobbyists and propaganda machine through their media channels. This was 20 kids at one sitting so it gets more attention but kids are killed every day by hand guns 365 days a year.

Saying Washington has the strictest laws and that hasn't helped is meaningless. This is not a state problem. It is a federal problem. You can drive state to state on the highway.

 

[Jimbo]

So, you're proposing that the government overturns the 2nd Amendment and outlaws/confiscates guns? I wonder how many people would die in that operation? This is a fantasy. Not going to happen.

-J

 

[passline]

Just heard of it here in London. Just lit a candle at St Stephens on walk home. This is horrifying news. Hope the media reports this responsibly.

It is unfortunate for the grieving families that the media circus has already begun.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So, you're proposing that the government overturns the 2nd Amendment and outlaws/confiscates guns? I wonder how many people would die in that operation? This is a fantasy. Not going to happen.

-J

Oh I know that will never happen. Probably nothing will happen. This is just something we will live with and we will continue to see more and more scool shootings. Yes, I disagree with the second amendment and its interpretation. I don't think guns belong in the hands of the general populace and I am not crazy. I'd say the majority of humans on this planet see it the same way. Why does this kid's mother need to "collect guns". Try vintage coins lady...

I am not against the guys that are rational, intelligent people that own guns right now. It is a problem because when crazies do, sometimes you need to as well. But a lot of gun owners right now would be a lot more willing to let go of theirs if they knew no one else had any either. Like in every other country. It's a mess created mainly by the $$ that roll into the gun companies. Somehow it should be cleaned up and I don't have the perfect answer, but it starts with not making them easier to get than twinkies.

 

[Jimbo]

Well, one thing we could do is to secure our borders and stop the inflow of illegal handguns that find their way into the hands of criminals.

-J

 

[V.Lats97nsx]

I think lowering the speed limit to 5mph will fix the problem, we protect our kids outside of the school but not inside.

 

[bee_are_bee]

Not sure what you mean by we would have to be a "police state". Yes there are a lot of existing guns out there but you have to start some place. Not many people will keep a kilo of cocaine in their house knowing they would go to jail for it. If there's enough incentive to get rid of guns, 90+% will go away.

I agree with you there is no simple solution but the way we are going on now certainly isn't one. The thing is any small change you try to make is met with huge resistance from the gun lobby because it hurts their bottom dollar and so they get cranking again with their lobbyists and propaganda machine through their media channels. This was 20 kids at one sitting so it gets more attention but kids are killed every day by hand guns 365 days a year.

Saying Washington has the strictest laws and that hasn't helped is meaningless. This is not a state problem. It is a federal problem. You can drive state to state on the highway.

By "police state" I mean the police would have to be granted more broad search and seizure powers than they have right now. With our 4th amendment I don't see this happening. In places like Japan there are no such protections against "unreasonable search and seizure." This is partly how they police their ban on guns. Officers can search people simply by random suspicion. This is acceptable in Japan where they also have more respect and reverence for law enforcement. Japanese citizens are also freakishly law abiding. Not such the case here in the states. I also have a sneaking suspicion that criminals with guns will not so willingly surrender them to law enforcement if a ban were to take place.

You're right, most people don't harbor a kilo of cocaine, but the drug laws don't stop people who really want to do it from doing it. Law abiding citizens may surrender their guns but people without regard for the law won't do so. 300+ millions guns and gun homicides amount to just over 11,000. A vast majority of law abiding citizens don't use guns to murder people. Non-firearms homicides amount to a number that's about 46% higher. The most frequently used weapon in violent crimes is a baseball bat. One of the ultimate questions is how do we police this?? Simply making a law does not necessarily mean it will be.

I don't agree that citing gun restrictions in certain areas as meaningless. I agree that guns can be procured state to state so a municipal or state ban is effectively meaningless. That's why I believe they shouldn't exist. It just works to disarm law abiding citizens (meanwhile, Kennisaw, GA has an ordinance that heads of household own a firearm. Hasn't been a murder in that town since the early '80s). What these strict gun laws in places like Chicago and DC show me is the difficulty in policing such a policy. That's why I said we'd effectively have to rewrite the 4th amendment and become more of a police state. I don't see that happening in our politically correct culture because you and I both know that one or two groups will cry "profiling" and a "disparate impact" will be shown, etc. If our society existed in a vacuum then, yes, I'd be more inclined to believe a gun ban or heavy regulations would work but a complex web has been woven over the last two and a half centuries. IMO, part of how we change our culture is freely and outright judging cultural elements that glorify gun violence and start calling a spade a spade.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Well, one thing we could do is to secure our borders and stop the inflow of illegal handguns that find their way into the hands of criminals.

-J

Yeah but most of the gun flow is actually the other way. It goes down. What comes up seems to be a lot of what has gone down already. I do agree with you that it would be a key ingredient in keeping things safer, but this is way overblown. Organized crime and professional criminals that will own guns "anyway" are a tiny tiny fraction of the gun violence that happens. The mob and such wants to stay quiet and go about their business. Drug lords and bank robbers don't have a huge interest in going to the theater and shooting up people watching batman. The majority of gun violence happens in situations just like his where any yahoo can get a gun and start shooting.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll take my chances of getting caught in a crossfire of a bank robbery or a mob hit gone bad without a gun. What I am uncomfortable with is that some of the idiots I have met own a practical arsenal in their bedrooms. I am saying they are idiots to start with.... Then they show me their arsenals.... They think they are playing Xbox.

 

[Jimbo]

So what about Xbox and violent video games that glorify shooting other people? Sure, the vast majority of normal teens aren't affected but what about those kids with mental problems? Aren't these games just virtual killing training sessions that set the stage for real world problems in the future?

 

[TURBO2GO]

There is never any one single reason why something happens, and I think a lot of people like to use this as an excuse to either divert attention or do nothing at all. Like the stupid slogan that says "guns don't kill people, people kill people", the reality is that it takes a person, and a gun, and a bullet, and instability, and this and that. But they are all responsible in some way.

So what about violent video games, do they have an effect? Yeah, I am sure there is SOME detrimental effect, and it's greater in some people than others. My little brother in the big brother big sister program.... All he does is play violent video games. It's all shooting and killing. Does it have a negative effect? Probably. Doesn't mean he will be a killer. I talk to him all the time and remind him this is a game and real shootings have real consequences. I try to be a positive where the game is a negative. It's definitely more important that access to guns isn't so easy.

Of course the gun maker would like to scare people from the person that suggests a bit more control over gun manufacturing and sales, by saying "the guy that is wanting to ban your gun is the guy that will come after your son's video games next". He diverts attention, creates an "argument" pits people against each other, and goes on about his business as before. It happens all the time... All of politics is often turned into politics because of this. It's distract and steal. Distract and shift blame. Scare and escape responsibility.

We needed stricter control over guns, we need fewer guns in society, and if we can curb violence in movies and video games it would be better IMO, but a video game is not even close to being on par with better gun laws. I can live with my little bro playing soldier so long as I am also there to explain to him what killing and death really is. Certainly I am not going to get caught up in that silly argument no matter how much someone tries to drag me into it.

- - - Updated - - -

I watch the news and there is so much focus on the shooter, the mother, this idiot is now famous. So the next guy that wants to be famous will do something similar.

I so much would prefer it if "news" was not a for-profit thing. News channels want viewers so they can sell ads. They aren't all that concerned with bringing unbiased non-sensationalized news to any of us. Any tragedy is $$ to them. They too are a small part of the problem, aren't they? It's like the further you look out, there more things that seem to be involved. But certainly cause #352 on the list is not the same as #1 and #2. IMO you start at the top and try to make as much change as reasonable and feasible.

Right now I am just very sad. God bless the souls of those kids. :frown:

 

[OneRedNSX]

I quit reading after page one. All you people trying to turn this into a gun control debate / issue are missing the point. Quit blaming the tool / implement and blame the criminal. If he had used a cement mixer to run through a crowd of kids at a cross walk would you be talking about banning them too?

We had a very sick / angry / messed up guy who did horrible things. How he did it is of little consequence at this point. He obviously wanted to kill a lot of people. Had a gun not been available who knows what he would have done. Build a bomb? Start a fire? We don't know so quit acting like he would have said "oh well. I can't get a gun. Guess I will just sit home and watch a movie instead of killing my family and everyone else around."

edit: I almost forgot the most important part... This isn't the time for politics. This is the time to try and help / pray for / try to rebuild the hundreds of families that have been affected by this horrible act. They should be the main focus here...

 

[SilverStone05]

I quit reading after page one. All you people trying to turn this into a gun control debate / issue are missing the point. Quit blaming the tool / implement and blame the criminal. If he had used a cement mixer to run through a crowd of kids at a cross walk would you be talking about banning them too?

We had a very sick / angry / messed up guy who did horrible things. How he did it is of little consequence at this point. He obviously wanted to kill a lot of people. Had a gun not been available who knows what he would have done. Build a bomb? Start a fire? We don't know so quit acting like he would have said "oh well. I can't get a gun. Guess I will just sit home and watch a movie instead of killing my family and everyone else around."

edit: I almost forgot the most important part... This isn't the time for politics. This is the time to try and help / pray for / try to rebuild the hundreds of families that have been affected by this horrible act. They should be the main focus here...

This is the best of the few rational posts in this thread. Thank you for it.

God help the families/friends of the precious victims.

 

[NA1MT]

The problem in this country is how lenient we are with these fucking animals when they get caught. They, in most cases go to jail for life without parole or sit on death row for 10+ years. When convicted of such heinous crimes, there should be swift, BRUTAL public executions. In this animals case they should throw his bodybthrough a chipper and pour him out at the local garbage dump, no funeral allowed.

 

[TURBO2GO]

The problem in this country is how lenient we are with these fucking animals when they get caught. They, in most cases go to jail for life without parole or sit on death row for 10+ years. When convicted of such heinous crimes, there should be swift, BRUTAL public executions. In this animals case they should throw his bodybthrough a chipper and pour him out at the local garbage dump, no funeral allowed.

How is that the problem? The killer is dead. Most of these guys put a bullet in their own head after. How is a "public execution" a solution?

I also don't see the analogy of the cement truck. The kid had a bushmaster, a glock, and a pistol. And yes, I blame the availability of those just as much as the kids psychological health.

 

[Ritesh]

What a sad and tragic day in our Nation's history. Sadly history seems to be repeating itself over and over again. My heart goes out the community and the families that lost their loved ones.


REGARDING THE GUN CONTROL TOPIC: I see this type of tragedy playing itself out over and over again in the future. I personally feel that there are way way too many guns in our country and believe in very strict gun control but IMHO it is too late for that in our country. Anybody who wants a gun for good use or bad has access to one. Gun control won't prevent the crazy or the criminal from getting guns. The 2nd amendment, NRA members want more gun owner rights/access. They believe that if everybody was armed then we would be safer. Really - that doesn't make sense to me either. I have plenty of friends who have collections of guns and some of them aren't exactly stable. I really don't like the idea of our country being the wild wild west with everybody owning and using a gun when he or she feels it is appropriate. That is a sign of an uncivilized society. I don't understand how anybody can truly justify our tragic homicide rate. I had a friend post on Facebook that Baseball bats hurt or kill more people then guns on average. Seriously - Please just shut up!

Personally don't see ANY solution but I hate it see this happen over and over again. Somebody posted on Facebook about the Switzerland model which I thought was more in line with the 2nd amendment and would help reduce the amount of guns/semi-automatics in our country.

 

[NA1MT]

How is that the problem? The killer is dead. Most of these guys put a bullet in their own head after. How is a "public execution" a solution?

I also don't see the analogy of the cement truck. The kid had a bushmaster, a glock, and a pistol. And yes, I blame the availability of those just as much as the kids psychological health.

Sorry if you don't agree.....go find criminals in some other countries that have had a hand cut off for stealing and see if they will steal again, or see how many theft instances there are in those countries. But maybe you are right, let's order everyone to turn in their guns and keep paying to "rehabilitate" these animals when caught on all of our money.

And in fact sir you are very mistaken if you believe that out of 10000+ shootings most of the shooters take their own lives after the fact. The sad fact is we pay to house them and make sure they get three meals a day for ridiculous prison terms of 20+ years. Not all, but most, would think more than twice if they knew they would be put to death publicly by horrific means as a result of their heinous actions.

 

[bee_are_bee]

The 2nd amendment, NRA members want more gun owner rights/access. They believe that if everybody was armed then we would be safer. Really - that doesn't make sense to me either. I have plenty of friends who have collections of guns and some of them aren't exactly stable. I really don't like the idea of our country being the wild wild west with everybody owning and using a gun when he or she feels it is appropriate. That is a sign of an uncivilized society. I don't understand how anybody can truly justify our tragic homicide rate. I had a friend post on Facebook that Baseball bats hurt or kill more people then guns on average. Seriously - Please just shut up!

Personally don't see ANY solution but I hate it see this happen over and over again. Somebody posted on Facebook about the Switzerland model which I thought was more in line with the 2nd amendment and would help reduce the amount of guns/semi-automatics in our country.

Look at the nations that ban gun ownership amongst ruled citizens and then examine their gun crime and homicide rate. There are certain outliers (Japan being one of them) but banning gun ownership by ruled citizens doesn't stop guns from falling into the hands of those that want to use them to wreak carnage and murder (Mexico, African nations). As I've mentioned before, the city of Kennisaw,Ga has a city ordinance that heads of household keep a firearm. Not a murder since the early '80s. What does this prove? Nothing more than a more pervasive presence of guns doesn't necessarily mean we will have a "wild, wild west" culture. Besides, a vast majority of people don't "use guns when he or she feels it is appropriate." We in the U.S. have 88,000 guns per 100,000 people, highest in the world. Our gun homicide rate is 2.97 per 100,000, 28th in the world. We have an overall homicide rate of 4.8 per 100,000. Mexico, meanwhile, has a homicide rate of over 18 per 100,000 with 55% of them resulting from guns. Mexico has some of the world's most stringent gun laws. Our homicide rate isn't to be "justified" but putting it into perspective is a more honest approach.

 

[s2kNSX]

1. this is the time for politics and debate because people forget about such issues when things are quiet.
2. The argument above about other means (cement truck, home made bombs, ect) are useless until those means become trajedies as well. Talk to me when we have a string of run away mixmaster cement trucks plowing into innocent peolple.
this whole argument that "guns dont kill people..people kill people" is ass backwards...so i guess we have two options based on that argument...ban guns or ban people.

ps (this kid and the kid in oreagon dont sound like they had a "mental illness"..i guess we should ban everyone)

Z

 

[HIJACKER]

I blame the media for sensationalizing these events. These psychopaths see it as an opportunity to "be famous" and have their 15 seconds of fame, rather than just offing themselves in the basement. The fact that our media focuses so much on the negative events and tragedies, give opportunity for others who want to copycat or top the other person. The day we start to NOT give these events the amount of attention they receive, is the day things start to turn around in my opinion.

Secondly, I don't blame the guns (or in this case, the tool that was used). ANYTHING can be a weapon, so you can't ban everything. Knives, baseball bats, vehicles, etc. are objects that can be used to kill. Even common household supplies and cleaners can be used to make bombs, so ban those as well? Regardless, adding laws and regulations certainly won't make a difference other than changing the process for those of us who already do the right thing in life and follow laws.

Here's a quote from a teacher at the school:
"I told them we had to be absolutely quiet. Because I was just so afraid if he did come in, then he would hear us and just start shooting the door. I said we have to be absolutely quiet. And I said there are bad guys out there now and we need to wait for the good guys to come get us out," Roig told ABC.

Let's remember, EVERYONE in that school was a "good guy". The fact they all have to wait for help and be sitting ducks is what breaks my heart. What if teachers were also armed and could defend themselves and students? This is exactly what "gun free zones" do, is make EVERYONE "wait" for the good guys.

To close out my post, I quote Morgan Freeman who stated it perfectly:

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

 

[djdrock]

That's the wrong point of view IHMO. Your psycho guys are living freely among all the others, are even allowed to buy guns (thanks to the rifle society) and now you're shocked that this happens. That's hypocritial. I'm sorry to say I'm not. It happened in the past and will happen in the future until you fix the real problem. This is the backside of the medal.

All my condolecences to the people who have been hurt or killed.

EDIT: I know I'll get a lot of critism for the following video I came across but it shows that good and bad are very close to each other. Dumb people do dumb things and sometimes to other people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMC93BY88j8 It's even more thinkable to come across such a video on www.

It is a fake video. Confirmed by Snopes.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/exhibitb5.asp

 

[bee_are_bee]

2. The argument above about other means (cement truck, home made bombs, ect) are useless until those means become trajedies as well. Talk to me when we have a string of run away mixmaster cement trucks plowing into innocent peolple.
this whole argument that "guns dont kill people..people kill people" is ass backwards...so i guess we have two options based on that argument...ban guns or ban people.

ps (this kid and the kid in oreagon dont sound like they had a "mental illness"..i guess we should ban everyone)

Z

The larger point is that a person that wants to kill will find a way to kill using whatever device or implement. The cement truck was just an example, a poor example, but an example nonetheless. People have used homemade bombs to kills many people in this country. 2.97 gun homicides per 100,000 people while there are 88,000 guns per 100,000 people make for minute odds. Fact of the matter is, people do kill people. Your two options based on this argument is merely a straw man. There is ample evidence that banning guns does not work in many countries (Mexico, Central Americas, most of Africa) and in some of our very own cities (Chicago, DC, Aurora). The nations where banning guns has worked have other cultural and societal factors that work in favor of gun bans. We don't have those cultural and societal elements. As I've mentioned before, how do we police this? We'd have to not only scrap our 2nd amendment but also scrap the 4th amendment. As of right now the police only deal with guns AFTER the crime has been committed. Do police go door to door and collect guns? How do we confiscate them from criminals who will most likely not voluntarily cooperate with the law? Lament our gun culture all you want but we have to deal with our issue within the context of that culture.

As far as mental issues are concerned, yes, it is a problem. In just about every case like this one the people who've known the assailant say they weren't at all surprised at what transpired. What do we do? Report these individuals who concern us for a psych eval? We don't have a system set up for that. Do we go back to institutionalizing those with mental illness? As of right now laws prohibit the incarceration of people with known mental illnesses who could pose a danger to society until AFTER they've attacked someone.

 

[docjohn]

whether you believe that the silicon chip inside his head was switched to overload,or satan got in there...I do believe that the copycat phenomen/the media(24hr cable networks) but more importantly the internet enable these lost souls.Somewhere on the web i'm sure there is some chatroom for sick people who want to kill as many of us as possible,so imagine if you think thats ok and you get to talk to others who feel the same....wow that is it in a nutshell...should this kid have been more closely monitored...how were his moms guns stored...all these factors will need to be studied...who knows..all i know is that we are always playing catchup with evil....taking your shoes off at the airport....guys flying planes into the twin towers....our worlds problems seem to be getting bigger,thankfuly we have kinda backed off the "world war" escapades of our grandparents.

 

[LJSB]

Some facts about gun control:

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.


A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year

A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:
• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim

On the other hand:
* Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886 or 67% were committed with firearms

Source: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime

 

[Bravo]

I think it comes down to culture. It has changed.
Video games of today are targeted to kids that are murder simulators for hours of practice and desensitizing kids to horrific violence.
Hollywood that has to one up itself with the scariest most violent film du jour.
I would be happy if the video murder simulators and ultraviolent movies went away. I'm sure some 1st amendment advocate has a problem with this.
We do need tougher laws for those who have guns illegally. Prison. 10years. No parole. Due process, but tough rules. There has to be a brutal concequence to illegal possession.
Use a gun in a crime, even a prop gun, Capital punishment. No mercy. You have no value to society if you are using a tool of protection as an offensive weapon.