Does anyone order keepers and valve guides when building their heads?

[jaffaz32]

As the title, where do you stop?

I see supertech list both valve guides and keepers for the Nsx.

Are these needed or just a waste of money?

I'm not entirely sure what the keepers do, I know their something to do with the valves and remember losing one Many years ago on a previous project. Oops...

 

[Old Guy]

Valve guides are a wear item, not normally a fatigue item. The specs for the valve stem to guide clearance are in the service manual. I seem to recall that the manual specs valve horizontal motion limit; but, that could be another engine I am thinking of. If your valve guide clearance is excessive, then you probably need new guides and maybe new valves. Only measurement will tell. If the measurements are nicely within spec, I would leave them alone.

I am sure somebody has probably broken a keeper in use - perhaps when the valve hit a piston! I expect that the most common reason for needing replacement keepers is when it pops out of the mechanics fingers and bounces across the floor before it drops down the floor drain. Ohhhh F...........!

 

[Mac Attack]

I agree with Old Guy. My '92 with 125k miles had valve guides with little wear so there was no need to replace them.

Valve keepers (or sometimes called locks) are stressed components. They clip onto the valve stems and hold the valve retainer in place (the disc that sits at the tops of the valves and constrains the valve spring(s). All that stuff is highly stressed.

I reused my valves and valve guides, but replaced the springs, keepers, and retainers. The valve seats aren't really stressed, so I just reused those.

Dave

 

[jaffaz32]

Thanks again.

New keepers it is, might as well go supertech.

I'm going to get a small set of digital scales are weigh what goes in and comes out for curiosity.

- - - Updated - - -

How do you read this?

Do you need to order 48 or do they come in pairs?

https://www.supertechperformance.com/s6710-honda-valve-locks?m=4821&ec=234&em=4975

Also there are different lengths, guessing stick with the stock length?

 

[Mac Attack]

Thanks again.

New keepers it is, might as well go supertech.

I'm going to get a small set of digital scales are weigh what goes in and comes out for curiosity.

- - - Updated - - -

How do you read this?

Do you need to order 48 or do they come in pairs?

https://www.supertechperformance.com/s6710-honda-valve-locks?m=4821&ec=234&em=4975

Also there are different lengths, guessing stick with the stock length?

The valves, keepers, retainers, springs, and seats all work together as a system. I would talk with your engine builder what they recommend. If you go with Supertech retainers, stick with the chromoly and do not use titanium IMO.

Dave

 

[Old Guy]

I agree with Old Guy. My '92 with 125k miles had valve guides with little wear so there was no need to replace them.

Valve keepers (or sometimes called locks) are stressed components. They clip onto the valve stems and hold the valve retainer in place (the disc that sits at the tops of the valves and constrains the valve spring(s). All that stuff is highly stressed.

I reused my valves and valve guides, but replaced the springs, keepers, and retainers. The valve seats aren't really stressed, so I just reused those.

Dave

I agree that the keepers are probably under a fair amount of stress; but, it would be primarily compressive stress, not tensile stress. My experience is definitely not exhaustive; but, I have not heard of any cases of fatigue failures of keepers.

I have heard of keeper failures; but, not failure of the keepers themselves. The common keeper failure that I have heard of is misapplication of the keepers (poor or incorrect fit in the valve stem) leading to the keeper coming free with attendant disaster. The other keeper failure is due to wearing of the retaining groove in the valve stem which results in the keeper coming free with again attendant disaster. This latter failure seems to be attributed to repeated operation of the valve in some kind of float condition which causes fretting of the groove in the valve stem which then allows the keeper to slip past the groove. In such a scenario, I expect that the keeper itself would show damage.

If the original poster's valve stems showed any wear in the area of the keeper groove, then they are candidates for replacement and the keepers along with them. If he is changing to a different valve, then he would need to ensure that he has keepers that match the valve (and the spring retainer).

I expect that keepers are not extremely expensive and if it makes him sleep better at night, he should replace them. However, if he has OEM valves I would go with the OEM keepers since improper application of the keepers seems to be the most common reported cause of 'keeper failures'. You know that short of a manufacturing flaw, OEM will definitely work with OEM. If he is going with aftermarket valves, springs and spring retainers, he better do the homework and make sure everything matches.

 

[jaffaz32]

I have been reading lots and lots and the general census is if installing new valves replace the keepers/locks.

I can't speak for the Nsx but it seems most manufactures make their keepers with a press. Some aftermarket are CNC made to precision in other words you would like to think it is a better tighter hold on the valve. My mate dropped a Valve on his K20/K24 build, not something you want to do, it's a mess.

I went for Ferrea Valves as they come highly recomended by a Forum member who did their research and general research shows that Ferrea is considered higher quality than Supertech.

I was going to get the Supertech keepers but as advised i will also get the Ferrea keepers so they match with the valves, what put me off Ferrea originally was the price they were over twice the price of the Supertech when i first looked but when i actually looked in to it. Supertech are priced each and you need 2 per valve and the Ferrea are priced per valve so although they are more their not more by much. Also... you do have to be careful with the Supertech, their website does not explain this, but they offer 3 part numbers, oem replacement which is also a press made lock like oem cnc and extended cnc which according to their tech is designed to have more contact area with the valve and a better hold.

The Ferrea although when searching their site doesn't give this information, i got this from their catalog. they come in two part numbers for the Nsx but only one is given on their site. The other part number has a H on the end which means it's a Hylokeeper, from the very vague information i can find it has an additional coating which makes it stick to the Valve better.

I went for Brian Crower Springs, retainers and seats all in stainless, I opted out from the titanium version because of known failures, I rather a reliable motor over squeezing a tiny bit more out i wouldn't even notice.

I will stick with the Supertech valve guides and stem seals purely because Ferrea doesn't list the Nsx but i can probably take a safe assumption they do offer parts that will work but just not listed as working with the Nsx. This assumption is based on the part numbers from Supertech, the guides and seals they list for the Nsx are the same as B/H series hondas.

Thought i would just replace the guides even prior to inspection, so it's all new and perfect tolerances. Plus they have additional thermal benefits which all helps.

 

[Mac Attack]

I agree that the keepers are probably under a fair amount of stress; but, it would be primarily compressive stress, not tensile stress.

The concern would be shear stress for the circumferential ring in the keepers. The keeper angle (typical 7 or 10 degrees) helps dictate the breakdown of loads and how they are distributed from the retainer to the valve stem. Honda OEM uses 7 degrees, like the Supertech link above.

Regardless of how much stress the keepers have seen, it is prudent to replace them due to their cheap cost as well as potential implication of a failure. Just make sure everything is compatible. Another reason why I kept to new OEM stuff (except for the valves and guides which were perfect).

My $0.02.

Dave

Edit: If I were increasing the bore like the OP, I would have also gone with larger diameter valves and some additional headwork. However, I didn't, so it was easy for me to leave it alone and help keep some of the costs down.

OP - As you calculate all of the costs, is that J-swap looking better and better? :biggrin:

 

[BATMANs]

Only time I would use titanium anything on the valve train is if I just wanted the absolute lightest parts to free up the most HP on a track car that I know that I will be pulling apart the engine for frequent rebuilds.

 

[jaffaz32]

The concern would be shear stress for the circumferential ring in the keepers. The keeper angle (typical 7 or 10 degrees) helps dictate the breakdown of loads and how they are distributed from the retainer to the valve stem. Honda OEM uses 7 degrees, like the Supertech link above.

Regardless of how much stress the keepers have seen, it is prudent to replace them due to their cheap cost as well as potential implication of a failure. Just make sure everything is compatible. Another reason why I kept to new OEM stuff (except for the valves and guides which were perfect).

My $0.02.

Dave

Edit: If I were increasing the bore like the OP, I would have also gone with larger diameter valves and some additional headwork. However, I didn't, so it was easy for me to leave it alone and help keep some of the costs down.

OP - As you calculate all of the costs, is that J-swap looking better and better? :biggrin:

The machine shop will be porting the heads also.

I'm trying not to add everything up

Cody did suggest J swap but being in the UK it's a little harder doing swaps like that as we don't have the garages who are that glued up if i needed any help which no doubt i would.

Most tuning garages in the UK just do bolt ons, anything custom you expect to pay big bucks as there is very few garages doing it.

Be nice to keep with the C Series. keeps more value in the car i think, closer to original. kinda haha.