Dry Sump for NSX (C30A)?

[R13]

I got on one of those "how hard can it be?" kicks yesterday afternoon and started poking around the internet for dry sump info. I found the Dailey Engineering site and they list both "street" and "full race" applications for the NSX.

The only reference I found to that company on Prime is on the LS7NSX thread (obviously not a C30A/C32B). Does anyone have experience with this product, or know of anyone else who makes a purpose-built setup for a C30A?

While my car isn't a dedicated racecar, if this can be accomplished with more-or-less bolting on a pan, pump(s), tank, and hosing/piping....why not?

Anticipating predictable responses: Yes, I know an accusump would probably get the job done and is available in various reasonable kits. I may resort to that, but it just seems like a band-aid (ok a little more substantial than that) vs. fixing the "flaw" itself.

I found These threads on Prime, but none really go anywhere useful as far as "how-to":
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42794
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5317

 

[kookoo4nsx]

A few years back Ferrari moved to a dry sump arrangement. I seem to remember they quoted 3% gain in HP.


http://www.f1technical.net/articles/8766

 

[Mac Attack]

If I'm not mistaken, Danny (lowellhigh79) put one on his engine. Never saw pictures of it on here, but maybe he'll chime in.

If he did, it was quite a feat. There is some engineering involved for the pumps and injection points. One of the biggest benefits of dry sump is to lower the engine's center of gravitya few inches (obviously by removing the tall oil pan) and help improve handling.

 

[stuntman]

The fxmd unlimited nsx has a semi dry sump where theres a twin stage scavenge pump and the stock internal pump feeds the motor which is fed from the bottom of the oil tank.

There is a small increase in power but more importly there will be no oil starvation which even accusumped nsxscan experience. Accusumps delay the inevitable and buy you another second or two but on a long right hand sweeper it eont save you.

Due to the transaxle nature of the car you really cant lower the engine much without running into issues with the angles of the axle. That and since the oil feed is in the pan, it takes up room as well

You really cant mount the external pump if the ac compressor is there so there are compromises.

 

[R13]

The fxmd unlimited nsx has a semi dry sump where theres a twin stage scavenge pump and the stock internal pump feeds the motor which is fed from the bottom of the oil tank.

There is a small increase in power but more importly there will be no oil starvation which even accusumped nsxscan experience. Accusumps delay the inevitable and buy you another second or two but on a long right hand sweeper it eont save you.

Due to the transaxle nature of the car you really cant lower the engine much without running into issues with the angles of the axle. That and since the oil feed is in the pan, it takes up room as well

You really cant mount the external pump if the ac compressor is there so there are compromises.

So is the difference between a "full" dry sump and a semi-dry sump that the oil still collects in and is returned to the tank from a stock-ish pan vs. being sucked out of various locations on the engine and basically not having a pan per-se'.

In other words: stock oil pump pulls oil from additional vertical tank, oil goes through engine via normal oil passages, and gravity-drains into a more-or-less stock oil pan. However rather than the oil pickup for the stock pump in the pan, there are pickups for scavenge pumps that return the oil from the pan to the tank?

That being the case, if an industrious person made a custom pan with a mounting location for the supplemental pump to run off of a pulley (or an electric pump?) one might be able to get around the need to ditch the AC I think.

 

[sparky]

... but on a long right hand sweeper it won't save you.

interesting, what about a left sweeper, is the engine less susceptible to west -> east horizontal G-forces?

how many accusumped NSX engines have actually failed on track? on right handers?

 

[R13]

interesting, what about a left sweeper, is the engine less susceptible to west -> east horizontal G-forces?

Because the engine is transversely positioned in the car, the "long" direction of the oil pan is left/right, not front/back. In the NSX the stock pan has no baffles and the oil pickup is on the right-hand side of the pan. So in a long right-hand turn, the oil sloshes to the left side of the pan away from the pickup.

Factor in VTEC engagement, which pulls a significant amount of oil into the heads, and you can leave the pickup dry which causes the oil starvation and subsequent, potentially catastrophic, engine damage.

left hand turns aren't an issue because the oil is being sloshed toward the pickup.

So yeah, watch out for long, fast right-handers (think Road America Carousel on sticky tires). I don't think I'd even try running a clock-wise "roval" or oval track as the banking will exacerbate the issue. counter-clockwise banking isn't a problem as the lateral G still outbalances the slope of the track even at a place like Daytona with very steep banking (as long as you're driving reasonably quickly).

how many accusumped NSX engines have actually failed on track? on right handers?

I'm actually curious about this as well.

 

[fenixv8]

Toda makes one for the F20C Im surprised that they don't make it for the C30A

http://www.todaracing.com/en/product/oilpan/f20c-drysamp.html

 

[Honcho]

The Honda literature states the factory pan can handle up to 0.8 G sustained lateral accceleration and "spikes" up to 1.2 G.

Anything you do to the car to increase lateral G whether it be sticky/fatter tires, race suspension, power adders, etc, you could be pushing beyond the design limits of the pan. Baffles and accusumps are really band aids. I have been saying for years a dry sump system is the best solution for a pure race NSX or a track rat. After all, Honda uses one on the Super GT NSX.

People laugh at me because I track on ES100 tires instead of race rubber or super-duper R comps, but it is intentional to keep the lateral G's down to a safe level. I'd rather lose a couple of seconds per lap than my engine. Interestingly Honda uses the factory pan on the NSX-R, so we at least have something of a top benchmark for what is safe on the factory pan.

The challenge with doing a dry sump system on the NSX is locating the scavenge pumps and vertical tank in a way that does not interfere with the accessories (i.e., A/C). You would also have to modify the crank pulley for an extra belt. This is expensive, which is why you don't see kits out there. The potential customer base is just too small to warrant the R&D. But, I bet if you had the $$$$, one of these aftermarket companies could fab you up a great system.

 

[R13]

One of the sticking points seems to be the perceived need for a belt-drive pump that interferes with the AC and requires a modified pulley.

Could someone explain why an electric pump won't get the job done? That could be more-freely located, and linked to a failsafe in case of an electrical failure.

 

[Mac Attack]

It's not worth it. You can spend $3k in upgrading our OEM system with baffled/hinged trap door oil pan, 3qt Accusump, and a real water-cooled oil cooler with adjustable temperature control.

Or spend $4k+ on a dry sump setup that probably takes more engineering so you don't screw up your engine than even so-called engine experts know how to do.

Look at Rob's hinged/baffled oil pan and his discussion of dry sump in this thread:
ttp://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78667


Now, look at the BMW E60 V10 oiling system design:
"All this performance meant that support systems had to be augmented also. M engineers developed a high efficiency cooling and oiling system, which consists of an isolated wet sump and four oil pumps: two electric, on mechanical drain, and one main variable mechanical pressure pump that delivers only the necessary oil required. The main pump was mechanical because of the Two electric pumps at the sides of the oil sump picks up oil from the outer cylinder head on each respective side and pumps it back into the sump once cornering loads exceed 0.6 g. Ultimately, the system can deliver the required lubrication flow at up to 54* of roll, or 1.3 g of lateral or breaking acceleration."

Now, you could have a strictly electric-driven oil pump. Also an electric-driven water pump. How much time do you have, or how much do you want to spend for a street car :wink:

I've always maintained that some of the engine failures may have been due to improper oil maintenance early or later in their lives and the fact that a lot of these cars now have 100k+ miles. Then, they're subjected to extreme loads above and beyond the design limits of a fresh engine? What do people expect?

In an infamous older thread by JeffShoots, he was upset that his 20YO car with 100k miles on it (but new to him) spun a bearing on the track. Who owned the car before him all those years? Did they change the dino oil in it once a year when it was newer?

As shown with the NSX-R and some awesome drivers on some challenging tracks world-wide, there is no problem with oil starvation with a fresh engine. Sure, the latest slicks will have better adhesion capabilities, but that could be offset by even those drivers not taking the car to 10/10ths of it's capabilities that the NSX-R drivers did.

My $0.02.

Dave

 

[TANTO]

The added potential for failure of the external pump and specifically the pump drive is quite significant. Failure of a dry sump system is pretty common on race cars from my casual observation. I think i recall reading that Honda did consider it for the X.

 

[R13]

The added potential for failure of the external pump and specifically the pump drive is quite significant. Failure of a dry sump system is pretty common on race cars from my casual observation. I think i recall reading that Honda did consider it for the X.

I could see potential failure with aftermarket pumps and piecemeal setups under race conditions. However it's been fairly well proven that a good OEM DS is pretty bullet-proof with modest track use (reference about every 911 since whenever). I suppose I can see, given the OEM tire width in 1991 why they may have deemed it overkill, but for once I wish they'd gone ahead.

 

[lowellhigh79]

I have the Dailey 5 stage dry sump with a 2 gallon tank. One stage pulls oil from the turbos. It was a royal PITA to set up and I still need a bigger tank due to the volume of oil coming back (think large garden hose spraying into a small bucket). Will get around to track testing some time soon. I'll post some picks as well (IT IS SOME REALLY AWESOME STUFF- Brown and Miller lines, CNC pieces etc.) It was on display on the lift at NSXPO 2010. If someone snapped pics, please post as well.

Regards,

Danny

 

[lowellhigh79]

Found some pics...

The red breather element in front of the BOV lets air into the motor because of the vacuum created by the pump. Not a do it yourself though.

 

[mrbozo1]

Found some pics...

The red breather element in front of the BOV lets air into the motor because of the vacuum created by the pump. Not a do it yourself though.

holy crap what a beautiful setup. That is the most impressive setup I have ever seen in an NSX ever.

 

[sparky]

faaarrr... out, that engine setup's a piece of work

 

[Silver Surfer]

Jeeps...what's in the trunk??

SS

 

[whrdnsx]

I have the Dailey 5 stage dry sump with a 2 gallon tank. One stage pulls oil from the turbos. It was a royal PITA to set up and I still need a bigger tank due to the volume of oil coming back (think large garden hose spraying into a small bucket). Will get around to track testing some time soon. I'll post some picks as well (IT IS SOME REALLY AWESOME STUFF- Brown and Miller lines, CNC pieces etc.) It was on display on the lift at NSXPO 2010. If someone snapped pics, please post as well.

Regards,

Danny

Who made the Oil Pan? Is it a complete Dailey Kit?

 

[lowellhigh79]

Who made the Oil Pan? Is it a complete Dailey Kit?

Autowave designed this system, working closely with Dailey, ATI and Brown & Miller. Herculean effort undertaking this really difficult task that required MANY revisions and modifications to finally work. TIGHT fitment but super clean once everything came together. Pure candy.

Danny

 

[sparky]

dare I ask how much ?

 

[Mark911]

I've been working on my own dry sump system for about a year now with some help from Autowave. Integrated pump (four stage) to pan mean less external lines and a cleaner setup. Mounting on the backside of the motor is better for oil pickup and allows the AC to stay. The pan is a tight tolerance fit to the main caps and block studs making it a stressed member stiffening up the entire block. There's a designed in 8 to 12 mil gap between the pan and block which is shimmed out at each individual stud. See pictures on my website.

www.mscperformance.com/OilPan1.html

 

[R13]

I've been working on my own dry sump system for about a year now with some help from Autowave. Integrated pump (four stage) to pan mean less external lines and a cleaner setup. Mounting on the backside of the motor is better for oil pickup and allows the AC to stay. The pan is a tight tolerance fit to the main caps and block studs making it a stressed member stiffening up the entire block. There's a designed in 8 to 12 mil gap between the pan and block which is shimmed out at each individual stud. See pictures on my website.

www.mscperformance.com/OilPan1.html

That is friggin' awesome. When I was under my car contemplating this, I thought there was room there (on the aft side of the oil pan) for something if it was done right.

So, does that actually bolt to the main caps somehow, or does it just fit against them VERY snugly?

Also, how did you modify the balacer/pulley assembly to drive the belt?

Lastly, care to quote a price for a copy? :biggrin:

 

[Timpo]

why do you what dry sump anyway?
I know it's good way to feed oil, but I heard dry sump is useless unless you'll be pulling lots of Gs all the time.

The biggest advantage of dry sump would be significantly lowered center of gravity.
Because the oil pan isn't there anymore, you can mount the engine whole a lot lower.
That's why a lot of Mazda Rotary enthusiast go for dry sump.

Otherwise don't do it. If you're doing dry sump just for "cool factor" then that's very pointless.

 

[R13]

why do you what dry sump anyway?
I know it's good way to feed oil, but I heard dry sump is useless unless you'll be pulling lots of Gs all the time.

The biggest advantage of dry sump would be significantly lowered center of gravity.
Because the oil pan isn't there anymore, you can mount the engine whole a lot lower.
That's why a lot of Mazda Rotary enthusiast go for dry sump.

Otherwise don't do it. If you're doing dry sump just for "cool factor" then that's very pointless.

I'm really not predisposed to doing things for "cool factor". Please reference any of my few hundred posts where I've modified my car or effected some repair. They aren't exactly rife with "bling".

My car may not be a full-on racecar, but I would like to be able to run any tires I want on any track I want without sparing a thought for the oiling system being up to the task....and I'd prefer to keep the NSX for now vs. buying a 911 or late-model Z06.