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engine miss

Joined
9 June 2015
Messages
159
My 97 nsx has developed a miss. I started it for the first time in a few months, and it fired right up as it always does. I drove about ten miles and it ran perfect. Then the exhaust note changed and it felt as if it was missing on a cylinder. Happened at all rpms. No lights or anything. I am thinking maybe a coil pack has gone bad. I havent had a chance to pull codes. I assume it would show pending codes that may get me started. Car is low mileage and never had any running issues.

Anyone else ever have this issue? Thanks.
 
I would check your plugs and coilpacks, especially the rear bank coilpacks for corrosion on the base first...
 
Thanks guys. Gas (premium non ethanol) is about 4 months old. I went out and pulled the codes. No codes, or any pending codes. Whatever it is, it isnt setting of a code. I am leaning towards a stuck injector. Will check coil packs. Based on the shop manual it seems that a bad coil pack would throw a code specific to the cylinder. If nothing else, hopefully I can narrow it down to which cylinder isnt at the party.

I have never really worked on this engine. Just basic stuff. I am thinking of removing the engine covers and pulling the connectors to each injector while running and try and see if that gives any info.
 
Plugs

If you change the coil packs, also change the plugs. I had a miss and changed the packs. That did not correct the problem. I did not change out the plugs as they had less than 10K miles on them. Wrong, I changed the plugs and the miss disappeared. Both sets of plugs were Denso factory plugs. Jerry
 
If you change the coil packs, also change the plugs. I had a miss and changed the packs. That did not correct the problem. I did not change out the plugs as they had less than 10K miles on them. Wrong, I changed the plugs and the miss disappeared. Both sets of plugs were Denso factory plugs. Jerry

Did you get any codes for the missfire?

Bram, been a long time since the car has seen any water, but I will check it out for sure, thanks!
 
Thanks guys. Gas (premium non ethanol) is about 4 months old. I went out and pulled the codes. No codes, or any pending codes. Whatever it is, it isnt setting of a code. I am leaning towards a stuck injector. Will check coil packs. Based on the shop manual it seems that a bad coil pack would throw a code specific to the cylinder. If nothing else, hopefully I can narrow it down to which cylinder isnt at the party.

I have never really worked on this engine. Just basic stuff. I am thinking of removing the engine covers and pulling the connectors to each injector while running and try and see if that gives any info.

On the OBDII cars, there are two misfire detection systems. One monitors coil voltage and the other monitors crankshaft RPM (it looks for rapid speed fluctuations caused by a misfire). The coil monitoring system will not set an error code if it detects voltage when the coil is supposed to fire; but, if you have contamination on the nose of the coil or the spark plug insulator it is possible for the high voltage generated by the coil to externally flash directly to ground rather than through the sparkplug electrodes. However, this should cause a cylinder misfire which should be detected by the crank RPM monitoring system.

If you have a problem with external flashover of the nose of the coils it should be apparent. You will see black tracking marks on the coil nose and around the boot. Sometimes this can be cleaned off if the tracking is just in the surface contamination; but, serious tracking usually means a new set of coils. Removing the coils covers and pulling the coils is not to hard and an easy way to rule out a coil problem.

A complete cylinder misfire, whatever the cause, should trigger the crank RPM misfire detection system. It is possible that you have what I would characterize as a weak cylinder which is causing roughness in operation; but, not enough roughness to trigger the misfire detection system. That roughness could be related to fuel delivery which might be a partially clogged injector or a sticking injector (slow to open) which is reducing fuel delivery to the cylinder. That problem should cause a fuel mix error; however, if it is only affecting one cylinder then the mixture error may not be enough to trigger a mixture error code. If you have an OBDII code reader that can read the fuel trims, check your fuel trims to see if one of them is really high. That 'could' be a sign of a clogged injector and the ECU trying to correct for that.

If you have an OBDII reader that can read fuel trims, start by checking for high trim values. If you have some high trim values then consider removing your injectors and have them sent out to be cleaned. Checking fuel pressure would be good; but, that typically affects all cylinders, not just one. If you don't have a code reader or the fuel trim values look normal, then remove and inspect the coils. If the coils appear OK then I would consider sending the injectors out for cleaning. If it is not the coils or dirty injectors, things are going to be more complicated.

As a final two shots. If the car has not been started for a few months, to follow up on goldNSX's comment, how old is the gasoline in the car. Skanky gasoline can definitely cause operational problems. To follow up on Jerry@Mobile's comment there is a problem with counterfeit Denso and NGK plugs. If your plugs did not come from a reputable supplier you may have some counterfeit plugs. The plugs don't die instantly, they just wear out really fast because the counterfeiters don't use iridium or palladium in the electrode tips.
 
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Thanks old guy for the very detailed post. i really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. The fuel is only a few months old, and it is non ethanol with stabilizer. Several years ago when I acquired the car it had bad fuel. I had to drop the tank, clean it out and replace the fuel pump. I havent put a lot of miles on it since, but it has run flawless up until this. I am pretty sure it has the original plugs and coils. I did glance at the fuel trim numbers last night, and nothing jumped out at me but I wasnt paying real close attention as I was mostly concerned with codes.

Based on the what I have learned, my plan is to remove the engine covers, run the car and unplug injectors to see if I can narrow down any changes. Change the plugs and check the resistance on the coils based on the specs from the service manual. While I am there, I may just send the injectors out for cleaning.

I will post up what happens. It may be later this week before I can dig into it. Frustrated, as this is usually the car that gives zero issues.
 
I wouldn't bother checking the DC resistance of the coils. If the resistance of the coils is out of spec you would know it - its really a go / absolutely dead kind of test. The DC resistance can be in spec and the the coil can still suffer from external flashover problems. Also, if you have really serious corrosion on the exposed laminations where the coil contacts the head that can cause a weak spark; but, the DC resistance will check out just fine. I think @Kaz-kzukNA1 posted some good pictures of coils with severe corrosion problems on the laminations.
 
I wouldn't bother checking the DC resistance of the coils. If the resistance of the coils is out of spec you would know it - its really a go / absolutely dead kind of test. The DC resistance can be in spec and the the coil can still suffer from external flashover problems. Also, if you have really serious corrosion on the exposed laminations where the coil contacts the head that can cause a weak spark; but, the DC resistance will check out just fine. I think @Kaz-kzukNA1 posted some good pictures of coils with severe corrosion problems on the laminations.

Ran the car again tonight. Seems fine until it warms up or under load. I checked the fuel trims. It seems the STFT bank1 is a good bit different. Ranges from -5 to -8 or so at idle. Bank2 STFT is stable. Picture attached. Do you think this is enough of a difference to be a concern? Thanks.

If I remove the injectors, is there a recommended place that people use to clean them? Thanks.

20210628_181211.jpg

Edit: from what I read a negative stft number indicates too rich and the ecu is shortening the pulse. Could this be from a bad coil/plug? Is bank 1 the front bank?
 
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The long term fuel trims look pretty reasonable. However, LGFT1 is more negative than LGTF2. It takes a while for long term trim to accumulate. If the short term trims on bank 1 stay consistently larger then the long term trim on bank 1 should start to increase (and the short term trims drop). If the long term trim on bank 1 starts to get more negative then that is an indication that 'something' is happening on bank 1. After some more driving come back and check LGTF1 and if it is starting to increase in magnitude, then something is happening; but, that is not necessarily consistent with a misfire. If your long term trims stay where they are with some more driving then I think fuel mix is probably well within the acceptable range and is not associated with your current issue.

When you get a complete misfire on a cylinder, it sends a bunch of unburnt fuel and unburnt O2 past the O2 sensor. O2 sensors don't measure AFR, they measure the presence of O2 relative to a reference O2 level. When a complete misfire occurs the O2 sensor detects a bunch of extra O2 which the ECU interprets as running lean (despite all the unburnt gasoline in the exhaust). The ECU will attempt to fix this by trimming up to add more fuel. A persistent complete misfire ends up dumping a lot of unburnt gas and free O2 into the catalytic converter which will kill it tout de suite which is why OEMs put a lot of effort into misfire detection.

Your long and short term fuel trims are trimming down to reduce fuel so the ECU is not detecting excess O2 from a complete misfire. Since you are trimming down, if anything you have fuel over delivery (definitely no clogged injectors). However, right now the LTFTs are so small that I would not sweat them. Perhaps it is time to pull the coils and plugs and inspect them.

As a really 'out there' suggestion, have you had any high RPM excursions? A missed shift might cause the timing belt to hop a tooth or two. One or two teeth out on one cam won't result in bent valves; but, the change in timing can result in rough running. I would rule out all the other stuff before you chase that one.

Yes, bank 1 is the front bank.
 
I would put some new gas in because it could help and can't hurt and then change the plugs because it is cheap to do. I have had plugs function properly under cold start low load conditions and fail under normal operating conditions. High load operation at leaner fuel mixtures make firing more difficult for a plug and a marginal one will fail to fire.
 
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I just found that you can order all new coils as a kit for $130. I think new plugs and coils first, then see where I am.

I am doubtful it is the fuel. I filled up two other cars the same day at the same pump and they are doing fine. That was in February. Pretty crazy I know that, but I write it down, so that i know how old fuel is in each car that sits a lot.

I will update after changing coils and plugs. Thanks guys, i really appreciate it.
 
As a further thought, your fuel trims could be trimming down because of a leaking injector on the front bank. A leaking injector would not result in a misfire; but, it could result in a low AFR on one cylinder which the ECU attempts to correct by trimming down on all three front cylinders. So you end up with high AFR on two cylinders and low AFR on one cylinder which could contribute to roughness in operation. Right now that is just pure speculation.

I think your plan to replace the coils and spark plugs is a good plan - especially at the price for one of Acura's coil kits (if you can actually get your hands on a kit). As a bonus, the kits used to come with the correct spark plugs; but, I expect that is not happening anymore. Replacing the coils and spark plugs will eliminate them as a potential cause. If it fixes the problem that is the best outcome. If it doesn't fix the problem then you can move on to the fuel system.

You earlier asked about injector cleaning services. I have heard positive feedback for both RC Fuel Injection and WitcHunter Performance who both do parcel service.
 
As a further thought, your fuel trims could be trimming down because of a leaking injector on the front bank. A leaking injector would not result in a misfire; but, it could result in a low AFR on one cylinder which the ECU attempts to correct by trimming down on all three front cylinders. So you end up with high AFR on two cylinders and low AFR on one cylinder which could contribute to roughness in operation. Right now that is just pure speculation.

I think your plan to replace the coils and spark plugs is a good plan - especially at the price for one of Acura's coil kits (if you can actually get your hands on a kit). As a bonus, the kits used to come with the correct spark plugs; but, I expect that is not happening anymore. Replacing the coils and spark plugs will eliminate them as a potential cause. If it fixes the problem that is the best outcome. If it doesn't fix the problem then you can move on to the fuel system.

You earlier asked about injector cleaning services. I have heard positive feedback for both RC Fuel Injection and WitcHunter Performance who both do parcel service.

Thanks. Plugs and coil packs ordered. I will post back. I think its the plugs. 23k miles and 24 years, they probably need replacing.

Over the years I have had a few engines (4 stroke boat and waverunner in particular) that ran perfectly fine when they were put up for the winter. First start in the spring and they have a constant misfire. Change the plugs, and they are fine. Its like the plugs died sitting in the cylinder. No fogging or oil in the cylinders. I have found the cure for this is to have extra plugs on hand. If you have them, then you will not need them! :)
 
Woah, where did you find this kit for $130? I was about to be charged that from a shop just for ONE coil uninstalled.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353177636182

Crazy isnt it. Acura has the kit listed as part # 06300-PR7-305.

As I found out searching on Prime that any parts ending in 305 are considered a kit. I could not find this part number listed when searching using parts diagrams. It seems the part number is valid and several places listed them as available. The Ebay listing is from an Acura dealer.

Big thanks to the forum, as I ran across this part kit in an old thread. HTH
 
FYI, the coil kit requires the next gen connectors and covers. This makes the price not so attractive for earlier cars.

The connectors can be robbed from a TL and others...just depin/repin.
 
Can anyone confirm the individual part numbers that are in this kit of 6.

The part numbers that my car would need are 3x 30520-PR7-A03 and 3x 30521-PR7-A03

Thanks in advance.
 
Can anyone confirm the individual part numbers that are in this kit of 6.

The part numbers that my car would need are 3x 30520-PR7-A03 and 3x 30521-PR7-A03

Thanks in advance.
NZNick, the 06300- consists of 6 x 3pin style IG coil.
The parts # for individual 3pin IG coil ends with -A33 for both the front and the rear banks.
The ones (-A03) in your post above is for the 2pin style and you just replace the last 3digits with -A33.

JDM never had 3pin style IG coil and you won't be able to order the 06300- through Honda dealers in Japan.


Kaz
 
Can anyone confirm the individual part numbers that are in this kit of 6.

The part numbers that my car would need are 3x 30520-PR7-A03 and 3x 30521-PR7-A03

Thanks in advance.

Don't sweat the FF - RR (and separate part numbers) on the coils. You can turn an FF marked coil into an RR coil (and vice versa) by flipping the coil over and rotating the gasket on the base. The gasket has a little notch in it which is presumably a drain and I believe faces down. Easy to check by pulling a front and rear coil and examining. If you don't know about the gasket you can't distinguish between a front and rear coil (except for the FF / RR markings). Useful information when Rock Auto ran out of FF coils; but, still had RR coils in stock.

Just a head up - the $134 price in that E bay listing is not the lowest available price. If you go directly to an Acura parts discounter such as Delray you can get the kit for $111.

Ignition Kit 06300-PR7-305 | Acura OEM Parts
 
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NZNick, the 06300- consists of 6 x 3pin style IG coil.
The parts # for individual 3pin IG coil ends with -A33 for both the front and the rear banks.
The ones (-A03) in your post above is for the 2pin style and you just replace the last 3digits with -A33.

JDM never had 3pin style IG coil and you won't be able to order the 06300- through Honda dealers in Japan.


Kaz

Thanks Kaz - thought it might be too good to be true that these would fit my car.

Thanks as always.
 
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