Figuring out the stick shift....

[naaman]

So, I've been teaching myself to drive manual over the past few days. I've got the hang of starting and stopping (with minor conscious effort), and I think I have learned how to start on a hill without rolling backward.

Here's my method:

I observe traffic waiting for a gap to approach. When the gap gets close, with foot on brake, I ease off the clutch until I feel it "bite." Once it bites, I apply gas. When car begins to move forward, I increase gas and continue to smoothly let off the clutch.

My question is this: is what I am doing bad for the clutch? I've heard all kinds of "techniques" that are described as the "proper" way to do it, but since I'm self-teaching, I just don't know the answer. I've heard that "riding" the clutch is bad for it. Is what I'm doing on hills going to ruin the clutch?

 

[docjohn]

The most damage or uneven disc hot spots is caused by feathering or riding the clutch.In essence you don't let up your foot from the clutch pedal completely and the pressure plate and friction disc are never allowed to fully engage.Clutch life is longest when you engage it as quickly as possible,with the least amount of stress ie low revs, and the engine speed and your revs are well matched when downshifting as well as upshifting.Of course this is most important from a standstill.

 

[s14_tat]

Yup, you are burning your clutch and its not going to last very long like that. You need to learn to time the engagement point and throttle application perfectly. Your trying to mimic the feeling of a automatic transmission on your starts and I'm going to assume on the shifts as well ( you should not try to do this ). A well driven manual should be able to feel every shift in the lower gears, the difference between a poorly driven stick and a well driven one is that a poorly driven one the car "bogs" down when you shift making it jerk back and forth. A well driven one will be one surge motion.

To smooth out the shifts i usually let the revs drop slightly when I'm just cruising before of re engage the clutch during the shift.

1) While being in 1st gear rev to whenever you want to shift.
2) Clutch down and hold the clutch
3) Let the engines rev drop slightly while engaging 2nd gear on the shifter
4) Now release the pedal and add throttle at the same time with perfect timing

step 4 should only take a fraction of a second, and if you get the timing down right, it should be like a single smooth surge. If timing is off, it will bog and the car will be jerky. Step 4 should not take 1 second or more because that means your releasing the clutch pedal too slow and are burning your clutch on the re engagement.

 

[naaman]

So let me get this straight...

There should be no perceivable time between the clutch catching and then being fully released? In other words, what is the point of all that pedal travel before the clutch engages? It feels like 3/4 of the pedal travel does nothing at all, and only the first/last 25% (depending if you're engaging or disengaging the clutch) seems to do anything. For example, the gas pedal and brake pedal have no "play" whatsoever. The back half of clutch travel seems to do nothing, however. Is there some reason for this? Is that play meant to give the accelerator time to "match" revs to the next (or first) gear?

While in motion, I have absolutely no problem shifting smoothly. I don't lose any speed and the engine doesn't bog. Shifting while in motion is child's play. The time I actually spend "riding" the clutch up hill is very short... maybe one second.

Some of the things that I notice about my driving that make me feel like a novice are:

When I start in a parking lot and want to go only a couple of miles per hour, I find myself pressing the clutch a lot (all the way down) to prevent stalling; or instead of just "idling" forward, I gently press the accelerator (instead of the clutch) in first gear to keep it from stalling.

When riding the brake, I press the clutch all the way down. If I know I will have to stop, I shift to neutral just as I come to a stop.

When slowing down to take a turn, I press the clutch all the way down to avoid stalling out (usually in 2nd gear, sometimes 1st gear, depending on speed).

 

[s14_tat]

So let me get this straight...

There should be no perceivable time between the clutch catching and then being fully released? In other words, what is the point of all that pedal travel before the clutch engages? It feels like 3/4 of the pedal travel does nothing at all, and only the first/last 25% (depending if you're engaging or disengaging the clutch) seems to do anything. For example, the gas pedal and brake pedal have no "play" whatsoever. The back half of clutch travel seems to do nothing, however. Is there some reason for this? Is that play meant to give the accelerator time to "match" revs to the next (or first) gear?

While in motion, I have absolutely no problem shifting smoothly. I don't lose any speed and the engine doesn't bog. Shifting while in motion is child's play. The time I actually spend "riding" the clutch up hill is very short... maybe one second.

Some of the things that I notice about my driving that make me feel like a novice are:

When I start in a parking lot and want to go only a couple of miles per hour, I find myself pressing the clutch a lot (all the way down) to prevent stalling; or instead of just "idling" forward, I gently press the accelerator (instead of the clutch) in first gear to keep it from stalling.

When riding the brake, I press the clutch all the way down. If I know I will have to stop, I shift to neutral just as I come to a stop.

When slowing down to take a turn, I press the clutch all the way down to avoid stalling out (usually in 2nd gear, sometimes 1st gear, depending on speed).

You seem to be doing everything else right so I see no problem in that. The reason why there is so much travel in a pedal is because if there is a larger window of travel because the clutch fully engages, its easier to modulate with one smooth motion. Ever driven a vehicle with a Metal Clutch disc with a non sprung hub and no marcel spring with a stiff pressure plate? The clutch engages like a on/off switch which makes it hell for anything other than racing. When you try to be smooth with it from a stop it will either shudder/chatter or chirp the tires from the instant clamping.

 

[gdae]

My Dad told me years and years ago when I was learning to drive a manual, that you should “get on it and get off it as fast as possible.”
Of course, he wasn’t talking about popping the clutch, just normal engagement/disengagement, no "riding" the clutch. At no point (in non-aggressive driving) should you be snapping your neck or lurching the car in such a way that a passenger would notice.
It gets to be second nature after awhile. IMO, a person shifts much more imperceptibly than an automatic can; it becomes seamless.
Occasionally I’ll take a new passenger out in the car, glance over, and they’re giving me a What-The-Hell-Are-You-Doing look. They can’t believe that anyone would bother with a standard – and invariably they have no experience on a stick. It’s happened several times.
Driving a standard is becoming a lost art. Welcome to the brotherhood naaman.

 

[swerve2007]

the only proper way to take-off uphill is to use your parking brake, that way you only control the clutch and gas with your feet and release the parking brake as the clutch begins to bite.

 

[s14_tat]

My Dad told me years and years ago when I was learning to drive a manual, that you should “get on it and get off it as fast as possible.”
Of course, he wasn’t talking about popping the clutch, just normal engagement/disengagement, no "riding" the clutch. At no point (in non-aggressive driving) should you be snapping your neck or lurching the car in such a way that a passenger would notice.
It gets to be second nature after awhile. IMO, a person shifts much more imperceptibly than an automatic can; it becomes seamless.
Occasionally I’ll take a new passenger out in the car, glance over, and they’re giving me a What-The-Hell-Are-You-Doing look. They can’t believe that anyone would bother with a standard – and invariably they have no experience on a stick. It’s happened several times.
Driving a standard is becoming a lost art. Welcome to the brotherhood naaman.

If you can make the car do a 1-2 shift that is imperceptible without burning the clutch than you are the smoothest real life driver that I have ever heard. I mean you can even feel a automatic shift thru the 1-2 shift and when you get back on the gas your gonna feel the reapplication of the throttle esp with the short gearing on 1st and 2nd. From 3rd gear and on its easy to not feel the reapplication of the throttle.

 

[passline]

the only proper way to take-off uphill is to use your parking brake, that way you only control the clutch and gas with your feet and release the parking brake as the clutch begins to bite.

Ditto.

Especially if you're learning and some jerk is right on your rear bumper on a steep hill. Hold the button on the parking brake in with your thumb and pull back all the way, continue to hold the lever back with the button depressed while stopped. When the light changes, ease up lightly on the lever (do not release button) while at the same time release the clutch and depress accelerator quickly (as described in docjohn post) all the time holding in the button on the lever until lever is fully released and in it's fully down position.

This will prevent excessive wear on clutch and the wear on rear pads is negligible during the whole process.

Unfortunately, because your left hand is on the wheel and your right is on the lever, you do not have a third arm to give the guy in back, the finger. :biggrin:

 

[dablackgoku1234]

This has always been a highly debated topic, either easing off the clutch slowly for a smoother ride, or just dumping it to save clutch life and more stress on the tranny.

I personally ride the clutch on uphills. But the revs are under 1500 when I do ride it a bit. So yes, I am cutting the life of my clutch short, but its inevitable. The only thing you can do is to minimize the damage is to keep the revs low which will decrease your "ride" time. Parking brake technique works too, but you are still riding the clutch a bit. Only advantage is you dont roll back as much if you screw up.

When decelerating to a stop, I keep it in gear for as long as possible until the revs reach around 1k rpm. Then I clutch and put it into neutral. When decelerating to make a turn, I double-clutch downshift to second and take the turn in gear. If its a really slow turn, I decelerate, neutral, take the first part of the turn in neutral, rev-match to second and finish off the turn in second. I never take a turn in first unless I'm at a stop.

The one thing I learned is that if the shifter does not go into gear smoothly, dont force it in. It means your revs dont match and you are wearing out your synchros. And even if you force it in, your revs will be off and there will be premature wear on the clutch, and not to mention a sudden jerk/stress on the tranny. So always rev match and shift. The last thing you want is a tranny rebuild.

 

[naaman]

If you can make the car do a 1-2 shift that is imperceptible without burning the clutch than you are the smoothest real life driver that I have ever heard. I mean you can even feel a automatic shift thru the 1-2 shift and when you get back on the gas your gonna feel the reapplication of the throttle esp with the short gearing on 1st and 2nd. From 3rd gear and on its easy to not feel the reapplication of the throttle.

The 1-2 shift on my car is very, very jerky. The person I bought it from explained to me that one of the cylinders does not fire sometimes (or possibly ever). I attribute my inability to get a smooth 1-2 to the fact that I'm operating with 25% less torque... the only way I can make the 1-2 smoothly is by taking my time with the clutch.

My next question: does my foot have to be all the way off the clutch for the shift to be complete? Because if I let go of the clutch as soon as I have forward movement with the accelerator applied, I get more jerking (whether in 1st or 2nd gear; 3rd and up is seamless). If it has to do with rev matching, then that concept is lost on me: I don't understand how I'm supposed to "match" rpm if up shifting will reduce rpm and down shifting will increase it... Also, the car I'm driving does not have a tachometer, though I am learning to "feel" when it's at the right rpm for a shift (not to mention there is a little dash indicator).

 

[docjohn]

uh....what car are you learning on No tach, I would have recomended learning on a beater,but I think we all asumed you were gutting it out on the nsx?:redface:

 

[s14_tat]

Well if your car has no tach, shift by ear and when you feel the engine can go into the next gear without bogging. To get the feel of this point, I would leave the engine rev at a constant speed and than perform the shift until you can feel which rpm the car likes to be shifted at. Every car is different, on my old 240, I can shift the car at 2000 rpm and it would be perfectly fine. In the NSX I can have go higher like 2500-2800 rpm for it to be smooth.

You clutch pedal should be all the way for the shift to be completed. If you leave your foot slightly on your pedal you might be slightly disengaging the clutch without you even knowing. The all varies from car to car and how much clutch pedal replay has been adjusted into it.

Also if your car is running on 3 cylinders it would sound like a subaru, and the engine would be shaking like crazy. If it sounds smooth than chances are you are not running on 3 cylinders, also your check engine would be on telling you which cylinder is misfiring.

 

[naaman]

uh....what car are you learning on No tach, I would have recomended learning on a beater,but I think we all asumed you were gutting it out on the nsx?:redface:

LOL!!! Nope. Don't own an NSX yet. This is simply one step toward preparing to buy one eventually... someday... maybe.

The car is a mid-90s Chevy Beretta... it's like a coupe version of the worst car ever built: the Chevy Corsica. All the interior parts are identical (including the dash/gauge cluster...

I bought it for my sister for $400, but since she can't drive a stick and I "can" I lent her my car while I'm on leave and have been practicing on it. Anyway... I'll be practicing as much as I can to get the hang of it. Conceptually, I feel that I grasp it 100%... it's the muscle memory and the finer points that I feel need refinement.

 

[ChitownNSX]

I have heard this heated debate on several forums in the past. It always boggles me as to why it is so heated.

I have never had to replace a clutch in a car, ever. Had an evo I beat the crap out of and never had to replaced it in 50k miles, and my VW i put 60k on and never changed a clutch. That behind me......

When Starting, especially on a hill I have always used timing to start moving.

While on the brake with clutch depressed, waiting for the light to change or traffic to pass, to start, my foot starts to release the clutch in a smooth fashion as my right foot moves over to the gas pedal and off the brake to start accelerating. The clutch starts to grab at the same point that the brakes is released and the car moves forward as it should. If it rolled backwards at all it was for an inch or so at best.

 

[docjohn]

LOL!!! Nope. Don't own an NSX yet. This is simply one step toward preparing to buy one eventually... someday... maybe.

The car is a mid-90s Chevy Beretta... it's like a coupe version of the worst car ever built: the Chevy Corsica. All the interior parts are identical (including the dash/gauge cluster...

I bought it for my sister for $400, but since she can't drive a stick and I "can" I lent her my car while I'm on leave and have been practicing on it. Anyway... I'll be practicing as much as I can to get the hang of it. Conceptually, I feel that I grasp it 100%... it's the muscle memory and the finer points that I feel need refinement.

Lol perfect!

 

[gdae]

Cool, naaman, a Beretta is the perfect car to learn on. Beat the crap out of it and come to your NSX an old hand.
Chitown NSX is right, most clutches are remarkable durable. I have 230k in my Civic right now, have driven it like I've stolen it, and never had a problem. Heck, this is the car I have taught people on. I'd stop on steep hills on purpose just to demonstrate how to get going again.

 

[naaman]

Okay, sooo.....

I've been driving around in the Beretta and there are some things that just don't add up in my understanding of "how" to drive a stick...

I'm not supposed to ride the clutch, but... what do I do if I'm trying to go less than 1mph (for example, backing out of a parking spot in a busy parking lot)? I cannot get the car to move slow enough without stalling. In an auto, I'd be riding the brake... In a manual, that will stall the car.

My parking spot at home is luckily on a hill, so I can just roll down backwards foot on clutch.

Also, if I get off the clutch quickly, I stall out. It seems like I HAVE to moderate the release of the clutch pedal (i.e. about 1.5 to 2 seconds of "contact") or else I wind up going too fast (too much gas) or stalling. It feels like I'm shifting properly, but I'm hyper conscious of how much time I spend on the clutch getting from N to 1st.

 

[s14_tat]

In situations like this, I just quickly engage to get the car rolling than step down on the clutch again to let it roll, and if i need more power again, I would repeat.

 

[naaman]

Yeah... that's what I try to do... but just to get it to engage smoothly requires more throttle than I feel safe applying. Really, I just want to idle backwards but on flat ground it (so far) feels unsafe to do it any other way than to ride the clutch.

 

[sahtt]

I'm a manual nazi. I spent months learning the exact mechanics involved. It almost causes me physical pain to ride with someone who doesn't know what they are doing; wish that wasn't the case.

Here are some random tips:

See if you can get the car moving from a dead stop without using the gas. Some cars are trickier than others, the NSX is about average like most hondas/acuras.

Only use the clutch to change gears. Don't sit at the damn light with the clutch down, don't hold it down at stop signs, don't hold it down just because you are going slow, and don't hold it down while you brake. People that ride the clutch every time they slow down are wrong. Holding it down for a couple seconds in order to shift smoother and put less strain on the transmission while downshifting into lower gears is not the activity I'm trying to describe.

If possible, try not to shift into 1st gear out side of fairly slow speeds. While doing so during autocross etc. is not detrimental, it does accelerate wear.

Try to understand what's rotating and try to keep it all seamless (engine/transmission/clutch/etc.). Excessive clutch wear occurs when things are out of sync, for instance when you drop the clutch from red line to launch. Picture the engine spinning at 8,000 RPMS right in front of the clutch. It's perfectly still and behind it is hundreds of pounds of perfectly still steel. When you drop that clutch it smashes against the motor and goes from 0 to 8k RPMS instantly, it has to sustain transferring all that force through the transmission all the way to the rubber on the wheels in a split second.

And perhaps most importantly, it's a honda, even if you screw up or abuse it, it'll probably work just fine

 

[sahtt]

uh....what car are you learning on No tach, I would have recomended learning on a beater,but I think we all asumed you were gutting it out on the nsx?:redface:

Eh.. he doesn't need any tach. I was the best shifter in high school in my 5spd dx civic hatchback and the tach was a pricey option (as was a/c). That sucker would do 110mph in 3rd. That was also it's top speed.

 

[docjohn]

Eh.. he doesn't need any tach. I was the best shifter in high school in my 5spd dx civic hatchback and the tach was a pricey option (as was a/c). That sucker would do 110mph in 3rd. That was also it's top speed.

I hear ya but I had thought he was learning on an nsx,as to why I asked about the tach.I learned on a bug,pretty much useless gauges.

 

[DocL]

To the OP, you have been given some really good advice. In reverse, you have to ride the clutch. You use it to modulate the power and even as a brake if you know when the stall point will kick in and not stall out. Once the car is moving, making shifts from 1-2,2-3, etc can be smooth as butter. Let the clutch out without giving the car gas. Experiment with the speed at which you let out the clutch. Once you get the feel of the engagement point you can practice giving it gas. Most times when I'm casually driving I just slip my foot off the clutch pedal and let it engage harshly. When I want to get it going fast I just add some throttle at the engagement point, but that only comes with experience. I've been doing it like this for 25yrs and I've never had to replace a clutch on any of my cars. My NSX has 74,xxx miles on the OEM clutch and it still engages sharply.