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Flashing CEL and TPS when warm 2000 SOS TT

Joined
26 December 2009
Messages
36
Location
Atlanta
Thought I'd throw a post on here for anyone that's had a similar situation. I've read a few posts but what I'm experiencing only occurs when car is up to temp. 2000 NSX, 49k miles, all stock except recent SOS TT kit, 750 cc injectors. Ran fine at tuner and has been great for 2 months since (probably only 150 miles). Starts great when cold. Runs great when cold. No spirited driving when cold so not sure what would happen under boost. When it comes up to temp it develops a definite miss. It's literally like there's a dead cylinder. Slow to accelerate and doesn't clear or go away from idle all the way up. It makes boost but very slowly. When coming to a stop it will die if I push the clutch in at anything over 2k. If I let the RPMs come down easy with the transmission and push clutch in to match idle speed it will stay running (most of the time). Occasionally, with clutch pressed in, while driving, I can rev the engine a few times and it will clear up (CEL will stop flashing but stay on steady) and run properly for a while then it will return and the CEL will begin to flash again. TCS light stays on until I clear the codes. Codes are usually P1202, P1206, P0300 and P1399. It will throw P1201 and P1203 sometimes. Which is weird because it just seems like one dead hole and I'm running on 5 instead of 6. I've pulled plugs and coil packs and all looked good. Plugs have 100 miles on them. Igniter and coil packs are original equipment. I haven't switched coils around because i wouldn't know where to start with the random codes.

My question is...... What would you do first? Replace the igniter? Replace all the coils? I would be game to go ahead and change them all out. Especially being 20 years old. Thoughts? Any other suggestions? Thanks for any and all help.
 
a flashing cel is not good....time for compression test and a look at heads.
 
I am confused! I assume SOS TT means SOS's twin turbo kit; however, the fact that you are listing Pxxxx codes sort of implies that you are running the OEM ECU. How is that even possible? I think saying all stock and SOS TT kit in the same sentence pretty much qualifies as some type of oxymoron.

The P1201-6 are all misfire codes and I believe that they are generated by the crank speed deviation detection system. P 0300 is a random misfire and P 1301-6 are misfire codes which I believe are driven by the misfire detection circuit on the ignition coils. I might have those reversed; but, doesn't really matter. P1399 is a mystery because the service manual does not list a P1399.

If it runs well when cold (no misfires) and the misfires only emerge when the engine is up to temperature, I would not be spending time looking at the ignition components. In particular you are not generating any P1301-6 codes which are the ones that occur when there is an ignition system caused misfire. That said, checking the grounding on the ignitor and misfire detection module is always a good thing to do and doesn't cost anything. Poor grounding on the ignitor has been known to cause erratic ignition problems. No cost to do so rule it out as a cause. I think this may be more of a fuel problem. The ECU typically enriches fuel during start up and warm up and runs in open loop during that period. Once the engine has approached operating temp it goes into closed loop with the objective of running the AFR right at 14.7. Your engine may not be handling this well. What are your AFRs doing once the problem starts? Running very lean can cause misfires.

Use the service check connector to retrieve the codes in the TCS. I suspect that the engine misfires may be causing rapid front - back wheel speed differences which are confusing the TCS; but, worthwhile to determine what the actual code is. Turn your TCS off to make sure that your driveability problems are not being caused by the TCS intervening.
 
It is a Science of Speed Twin turbo kit and I have to run the stock ECU with the AEM FIC piggybacking it for emissions reasons. I realize it's not the optimum setup but there is no other way to pass emissions here. It passes just fine. I keep the boost at a reasonable level, run it a bit fat and pull timing if needed. It doesn't see any track time or many miles per year just wanted to have a bit more power on tap than stock.
Thanks for the replies and I'll start with the grounds. Also weird that it will clear up and run correctly at times when up to temp. Guess it probably wouldn't hurt to do compression test. Also oil and coolant systems seem normal.
 
The FIC fills in some holes in the explanation.

Can you log AFRs during good operation and poor operation? I think that may provide you with some better clues as to what is going on. If you see really high / brief spikes in the AFRs that would be confirmation that you are getting misfires. Misfires can be caused by fuel mix problems and ignition problems; but, in your case I am going to be they are fuel mix problems.
 
Yes. I run a AEM wideband gauge that data logs so I can monitor it that way. Of course having two turbos and two downpipes I actually can only look at one bank of cylinders at a time. My tuner suggested changing out all the plugs just for kicks and checking all the injector pigtails that convert the stock harness to work with the RC injectors. I think we are all leaning towards fuel and/or crank sensor problems. I'm also going to do the "stethoscope" test to see if I can hear all the injectors singing when it decides to act up again. Thanks
 
Since you retrieved the error codes you must have a code reader. If the code reader is relatively good, it will have a feature on it which allows you to observe both the short and long term fuel trims in real time. Long term trims are the running average of the short term trims. Unfortunately, when you cleared the codes from the ECU, you wipe the long term trim from memory so the value starts out at zero after each reset. In a perfect world at sea level on perfect gas on a stock engine that was 100% perfect the long term trim values would be around 0% and the short term trim values would be small single digit values that continually bounce between + and - values (averaging out at 0). If you can, when the engine is up to temperature and running poorly, connect up the code reader and have a look at the fuel trim values. If they are large numbers, that indicates that the ECU is trying to do a lot of fuel mixture correction indicating that you have a fuel problem. If the fuel trim values are all really small values, then the fuel mix is likely OK and I reserve my previous comments about your problem being fuel related and perhaps you need to go back to examining the ignition system. Really large long term trims will normally cause a fuel mixture error code which you did not report; however, when you reset the ECU you wipe that value and it may take a little operating time to accumulate long term trim to the point that it generates an error code. Monitoring the trims may be easier than trying to log the AFRs because all the values are available at the same time.

Some other thoughts:
I assume you are running two wideband sensors and controllers with a single display and switch between the two controller outputs? Did you retain the original pre cat narrow band sensors for use with the ECU or are you generating a synthetic narrow band signal from the widebands for use with the ECU? If the latter, check to make sure the firm ware set up for the narrowband simulation is correct (if it is configurable), although if the car ran OK at one time that is not likely the problem.


What does SOS kit use for a fuel pressure regulator? If it retains the original FPR, that is something that could go 'off' all of a sudden because of age. Relatively easy to check by doing a fuel pressure test. Make sure that the manifold pressure reference line for the FPR has not come loose. That would cause the engine to run rich at manifold pressures below 100 kPa which might be tolerable when the engine is cold; but, lead to poor operation when hot.


NSX cam / crank position sensors frequently look like crap with the potting compound oozing out of the housing and look like they should be sent to the garbage can. They generally continue to operate just fine. The sensor is a dumb-ass simple device consisting of four coils of wire wound on 4 magnetic bobbins. There are no electronic components in the device. You can test the device checking for continuity in the four coils and the resistance of the four coils (I recall the values are set out in the service manual). If you have continuity and the resistances are OK, then the sensor is OK. Besides, if the sensor failed because of a bad connection the engine will not start. Save your money unless you are offended by the site of goo drooling down the side of a nice clean engine :smile:.

Checking the injector pigtails is a good no cost thing to do; but, if the engine truly runs great cold, but, poorly once it comes up to temperature I am having a hard time visualizing the connections causing that type of problem.

I know pretty much zero about the AEM FIC. Does it have a temperature compensation for ignition advance - some engines need a little more ignition advance when cold and the controller dials back this advance as the engine warms up. If the AEM has this feature perhaps there is a little too much temperature compensation? If your tuner checked the idle ignition timing on a hot engine and it is as per the service manual, then ignore this thought.

You made the comment in your later post about running a little bit fat. I am assuming that you mean running AFRs that are significantly less than 14.7. That is OK if you are talking about doing that at wide open or close to wide open throttle. Even the OEM ECU runs less than 14.7 at large throttle openings. It gets away with this by switching from closed loop to open loop at large throttle and running directly off of the fuel map with no O2 correction. Where that occurs is probably known only to Honda and perhaps sr5guy. Main point is that you can set up the AEM to run AFRs below 14.7 as long as the ECU is running in open loop fuel control. If you try to 'fatten up' the fuel mix in those areas of the fuel map where the ECU has switched back into closed loop operation you are going to have a fight on your hands because once the ECU is in closed loop it is always trying to force the engine to operate at 14.7. When the engine is hot. if you drive down a level road at about 50 km/hr with steady throttle (no acceleration / de acceleration) you should be in closed loop reading AFRs right around 14.7 (probably moving +/- a percentage or so. If you are way off 14.7, that is confirmation that you have some kind of fuel problem or a set up conflict between the FIC and the ECU. Keep in mind that I said I know zip about the AEM FIC so ........!

 
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Old Guy---I've been super busy and haven't had much time to work on the NSX. You definitely are a wealth of knowledge on our vehicles. I do have a code reader that can see fuel trims and thats gonna be my next step. I swapped out new plugs and changed a couple of coil packs around to see if the codes will jump to other plugs. Haven't driven it yet. Don't expect much to change but worth it I suppose. Thanks for the insight.
 
Did a couple of things. Changed out all the plugs. They all looked the same and appeared fine. Gapped at .032". Since I was getting codes on 6 and 1 I swapped the coil packs from 6 to 5 and 1 to 2. I also did a through throttle body cleaning. Have driven it twice now. The stalling at idle problem is gone. Guess throttle body cleaning fixed that. It will now run well over 15-20 minutes now perfectly before the issue happens. I thought it was fixed. This is normal driving and spirited driving. No issues. Pulls hard. Everything works great. Then, generally after idling at a stop light for extended period, I can start off in first and it will drop a cylinder and the CEL will flash continuously. Rev it up a couple times and 50% of the time it will return to normal and CEL will cease to flash and extinguish. Other times I'll just limp it home, let it cool off for 5 minutes and it will start normally and all six firing as advertised. Has happened approximately 5 times in 50 miles driving. Has thrown no codes, no CEL and no TPS light since new plugs and throttle body cleaning.The drives have also been in Atlanta heat on 95+* days. Maybe spark plugs loading up? Some wiring getting pissed off as the temp comes up in the engine compartment?
 
Then, generally after idling at a stop light for extended period, I can start off in first and it will drop a cylinder and the CEL will flash continuously. Rev it up a couple times and 50% of the time it will return to normal and CEL will cease to flash and extinguish. Other times I'll just limp it home, let it cool off for 5 minutes and it will start normally and all six firing as advertised. Has happened approximately 5 times in 50 miles driving. Has thrown no codes, no CEL and no TPS light since new plugs and throttle body cleaning.The drives have also been in Atlanta heat on 95+* days. Maybe spark plugs loading up? Some wiring getting pissed off as the temp comes up in the engine compartment?

"CEL will flash continuously" - as in flash on and off? That is a new one for me. I see no description of that in the service manual. The misfire detection system is a 2 or 3 driving cycle detection system. That means that misfire detection has to occur on 2 or 3 sequential drive cycles for the MIL to stay lit permanently. I know that some of these DTC will cause the MIL to light; but, if the problem does not reoccur, the MIL will extinguish. I don't know whether the MIL lights on the first misfire event; but, then goes out if it does not repeat for the subsequent drive cycle. The service manual is not clear on that feature.

Since it seems to be temperature related, it is possible that you could have a temperature related problem with one of the pigtails on the injectors causing the injector to stop working when hot. However, that would be more than a misfire. It would be a dead cylinder and would normally not fix itself by reving up the engine unless the engine vibration restored the bad electrical connection. That said, if it is serious misfire or a dead cylinder, that should show up as a significant change in AFR or your short term fuel trims going super high as the ECU attempts to correct the AFR back to 14.7. Did you have a chance to monitor your short term fuel trims while this is happening?

You could try the injector / pigtail cylinder switch to see if the problem follows an injector or pigtail; but, that is a major hassle.
 
Appreciate all the replies. Some extra info after a 20 mile drive last night. Absolutely fine for 15 miles at 95* temps. Then starts to stumble/miss. AFR gauge all over the place. Mostly lean. No codes just the flashing CEL that extinguishes after a brief while of running rough. Will clear up and drive normal then begin again. I was able to watch short term fuel trims at idle and while driving. They climb positive in direct relation to rpm. Saw a high of 48 around 4400 rpm. So theory is car is seeing a lean condition and trying to ramp up fuel? Once again STFT and LTFT all normal for first 20 minutes driving. Checking injectors and wiring next.

Another issue that I have been thinking about is I have RC 750's which are a 12.5 ohm injector but factory injectors are 2-ish I believe. I haven't seen any posts even slightly mention why/how peeps are running the larger injectors. Is there a resistor box or something I should be running? Not mentioned anywhere.
 
First the easy part. The early cars had low impedance injectors. At some point, probably the C30 to C32 conversion the C32 received high impedance injectors. The later automatics continued with low impedance injectors. So, your car being a 2000 would originally have had high impedance injectors so the wiring is set up correctly for the RC injectors.

Interesting problem on the AFRs. A misfire caused by an ignition problem (or other problem) will result in the AFR spiking high during the misfire. However, if the engine starts running lean that can also cause misfires and the AFRs will spike high because of the fuel mixture problem. So, yes the car could be all of a sudden running lean (which is causing the misfires) and the short term trim is ramping up to try and fix the problem. I think the mixture error codes are triggered off of LTFT, so if the STFT lean condition does not last long enough the LTFT may not get high enough to trigger a mixture code. That might explain why you have not triggered any mixture error codes. Are both front and rear STFTs spiking high? If just the front or back is spiking, then the problem is probably localized to that bank. If both STFTs are spiking then it is a common problem and that might be a fuel delivery problem.

Checking the wiring for a bad injector connection on the cylinders throwing the misfire codes would be good. You may also want to check all the injector wiring. Since you have recorded 4 misfire codes for 4 cylinders (1,2 3 & 6). Do you have one of those fuel pump control things that are sometimes used on the CTSC installations. If so, I would check that because at least a couple of owners have incurred problems. Is it possible that your fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator is flaking out on you?
 
Thanks for everyones help. Long story short it was the a clogged up throttle body that needed cleaning and the dead cylinder problem was evidently caused by the injector pigtails that convert the factory injector harness (OBD2) to fit up to the OBD1 style (RC 750's) injectors that I installed with the turbo kit. Pushed back pin maybe? Not sure. Running great now. I figure the K&N style air filters helped to contribute to the throttle body becoming unhappy and that was causing the stalling.
 
Good that everything is sorted. A temperature sensitive intermittent electrical connection can be a nightmare to diagnose.

An over-oiled oiled element air filter can definitely contribute to crap on the throttle body and vacuum passages. I detest oiled element air filters; but, that is just me. Dry filters are probably not an option with a twin turbo set up.
 
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