Has anyone switched over to 100% Methanol Injection? Dyno time this weekend...

[EAC]

I recently switched from BBSC to GT37R Turbo. I plan on doing another tune this weekend with DDozier. I still have a stock 3.0 and plan on pushing it a little to make a good number.

With 50/50, I'm running the smallest AEM nozzle. When I switch it to 100% Methanol, should I bump up the nozzle size?

Any other recommendations?

 

[mrbozo1]

I recently switched from BBSC to GT37R Turbo. I plan on doing another tune this weekend with DDozier. I still have a stock 3.0 and plan on pushing it a little to make a good number.

With 50/50, I'm running the smallest AEM nozzle. When I switch it to 100% Methanol, should I bump up the nozzle size?

Any other recommendations?

I would check with your tuner, whatever he is comfortable with?

 

[EAC]

I would check with your tuner, whatever he is comfortable with?

Well, I'm sure we can figure it out but I like to ask questions before hand. :wink:

 

[mrbozo1]

I know each tuner is different, the first tuner that did my car did not want to tune with the meth turned on as it was used only to lower iat temps after the tune was done and did not like to use it as a fuel because if the meth fails you may loose the motor. But with that said if you lose the motor you can build one:smile:.

 

[EAC]

I know each tuner is different, the first tuner that did my car did not want to tune with the meth turned on as it was used only to lower iat temps after the tune was done and did not like to use it as a fuel because if the meth fails you may loose the motor. But with that said if you lose the motor you can build one:smile:.

Yep, we're aware of that. I've been running various meth setups since 01 and I'm pretty confident in my current install. My first setup used a RX7 fuel pump and was actived by a hobbs switch. Everyone on the interwebs thought I was nuts, but it worked, kinda. :biggrin:


Don't get me wrong, I DO NOT wants to hurt this motor, but; I'm also not afraid of pushing it (w/ Meth Injection). I'm hoping for 475-490 whp.

 

[qqqqball]

there are many inherent problems with running 100% methanol, namely safety as it boils at 148F. but that aside, you will lose a good amount of torque generated by the steam effect on the power stroke of the engine cycle leading to more torque. (Same principle that Steam engines were designed around) . Also at 100% methanol you are basically running a dual fuel engine.

however many people do, I do in my GN, because Methanol has a kick ass flame travel speed especially in a rich environment. The flame travel speeds even at stoich are better than gasoline by far which is nice because you do more positive work when more of your mixture burns at TDC. On top of that it is making use of space by adding heat while still offering a better cooling effect than gasoline.

I run a Fogger style setup, for direct port methanol injection. i use 150cc nozzles at each runner. But thats a 3.8L v6. When I had my Z, I ran a single 500cc nozzle at 100% and a 700cc nozzle at 50/50.

Is it worth 100%, you'll make more power but you have to be alot more conciseness, if you have the cheap plastic line, you must check it for failure often as it eats away at it. Also you might on hot days where engine bay temps go above 150F, get nozzle drip and cause the car to run rough at idle due to increase in line pressure. Lastly that tune better be dead on and have a fail safe light or map change if the flow changes.

just my 2cents, I do it, but the GN is only a 1/4 mile car.

 

[EAC]

there are many inherent problems with running 100% methanol, namely safety as it boils at 148F. but that aside, you will lose a good amount of torque generated by the steam effect on the power stroke of the engine cycle leading to more torque. (Same principle that Steam engines were designed around) . Also at 100% methanol you are basically running a dual fuel engine.

however many people do, I do in my GN, because Methanol has a kick ass flame travel speed especially in a rich environment. The flame travel speeds even at stoich are better than gasoline by far which is nice because you do more positive work when more of your mixture burns at TDC. On top of that it is making use of space by adding heat while still offering a better cooling effect than gasoline.

I run a Fogger style setup, for direct port methanol injection. i use 150cc nozzles at each runner. But thats a 3.8L v6. When I had my Z, I ran a single 500cc nozzle at 100% and a 700cc nozzle at 50/50.

Is it worth 100%, you'll make more power but you have to be alot more conciseness, if you have the cheap plastic line, you must check it for failure often as it eats away at it. Also you might on hot days where engine bay temps go above 150F, get nozzle drip and cause the car to run rough at idle due to increase in line pressure. Lastly that tune better be dead on and have a fail safe light or map change if the flow changes.

just my 2cents, I do it, but the GN is only a 1/4 mile car.

Thanks for the reply, Nice hearing from a GN guys, I know Meth Injection has evolved leaps and bounds because of you guys. FYI, I only drive straight, so I'm only in it for a few seconds at a time.

I'm aware of the safety issues. I usually keep a close eye on things so monitoring the car won't be a problem.

My current 50/50 tune, we threw a tune on the car, then simply added the 50/50 Meth without changing the tune.

I'm pretty confident in my tuner. Here's how I imagine the tune will go. We'll start out with a safe tune without the 100% Meth, then add in the 100% Meth. My understanding is that 100% will fatten up the afr which will then require some fuel to be pulled out for optimum power/afr's. Then, slowly tune for the Power you want.

Sound about right?

 

[qqqqball]

it will make your 11.8 tune go straight into the 10's as far as AFR, however methanol make power by timing. by running 100% your probably running something like 100 octane. without meth i run 16 degrees of timing, with 50/50 i am running somewhere around 21, with 100%, the AIT where a tad bit higher so I couldn't bump the timing without knock. Not sure what the NSX is happy at, but i made roughly 60rwhp and 130rwtrq at 50/50 off base and at 100% 92rwhp with 91 rwtrq all this on pump. Street Outlaw Class requires pump over here or else Id run race.

 

[qqqqball]

just make sure on hot days you dont fill the tank up, methanol has an invisible flame. Ive seen this a couple of times with the Rx7 guys running out of the windshield washer bottle. And you dont want to run too rich below 11.2 with 100% methanol, you'll be changing plugs every couple thousand miles.

 

[EAC]

it will make your 11.8 tune go straight into the 10's as far as AFR, however methanol make power by timing. by running 100% your probably running something like 100 octane. without meth i run 16 degrees of timing, with 50/50 i am running somewhere around 21, with 100%, the AIT where a tad bit higher so I couldn't bump the timing without knock. Not sure what the NSX is happy at, but i made roughly 60rwhp and 130rwtrq at 50/50 off base and at 100% 92rwhp with 91 rwtrq all this on pump. Street Outlaw Class requires pump over here or else Id run race.

What about nozzle size? Did you need to bump that up once you switch from 50/50?

 

[qqqqball]

i had to go smaller, methanol can hydro-lock an engine for a split second, then it will fire once those exhaust valves open, its not too good. Depending on your system, you can change the line pressure to compensate. if you have a cheaper one, smaller nozzle is the only way to go. I'd start with an M16 nozzle. you'll probably end up at a m12 nozzle. Its hard to say with the NSX as it has a large volume plenum, and air must go down then up to the runners so you might lose some of the effectiveness. I would start spraying around 4 psi and go full bore around 10psi or less depending on your setup.

 

[qqqqball]

m16 is 600cc

 

[qqqqball]

Just be careful around DOT with 100% methanol, if they ask tell them its 50/50. Otherwise tell them its HAZMAT class ORM-D, some of them love to bust your stones, as it has a quite distinct smell. Otherwise you can get a good fine for transporting a Combustible liquid, and corrosive without proper docs yes i go one and it was a 550$ fine

 

[EAC]

i had to go smaller, methanol can hydro-lock an engine for a split second, then it will fire once those exhaust valves open, its not too good. Depending on your system, you can change the line pressure to compensate. if you have a cheaper one, smaller nozzle is the only way to go. I'd start with an M16 nozzle. you'll probably end up at a m12 nozzle. Its hard to say with the NSX as it has a large volume plenum, and air must go down then up to the runners so you might lose some of the effectiveness. I would start spraying around 4 psi and go full bore around 10psi or less depending on your setup.

My AEM kit comes with 3 sizes (.0155, .0315 and .0630), I'm currently using the smallest size.

I'm not sure where my HP Goal will come, but I'm thinking somewhere around 10-11 psi. So, I'd think I need the Meth on FULL sooner than 10 psi?

 

[NA1MT]

You have to tune specifically for pure meth.....so you can't go back to 50/50 without retuning again. Good luck, but why don't you enjoy it a little bit before you push the motor to possible failure?

 

[EAC]

You have to tune specifically for pure meth.....so you can't go back to 50/50 without retuning again. Good luck, but why don't you enjoy it a little bit before you push the motor to possible failure?

I'm not trying to break the motor. Lovefab said 475whp-500whp can be done reliably. That's all I'm looking for right now. :redface:

I know when to say stop, if the car just doesn't want to make the power then we'll find a nice stopping point.

 

[doc_tai]

i really want to see how stock 3.0 head gasket handle 10, 11 psi or 500 whp. can't wait to see the dyno sheet and video

 

[mrbozo1]

I love to see someone do something when everyone else says not to. That is how we learn. Keep thinking out of the circle, I love it. I dont think you will have any problem at all hitting 500 at 10 psi. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[qqqqball]

its up to you, but full bore may not even need to be achieved by then. it only going to use what it can anything else is just in the tail pipe. He is right about not switching back, however this doesn't seem like your goal.

Every motor is made differently. Even ones that are hand assembled, you will never know what your motor can handle till you blow it.

If your goals are 475-500 you might find that you can do it with less, or sometimes you need more. I always tell people a dyno is nothing more than a tool to help a tuner, if all your interested in is numbers, just turn down the correction factor... If your goals are to run 10-11 psi than stick to that, once you get bored and feel you want more go for more... In a straight line race, 1/4 mile, a turbo car needs a good launch. before going for more power i would say get a 2 step or a racelogic unit, my personal favorite for a street/track car that has factory ABS.

but meth is a good start as it keeps you in the street classes at the track and is always fun to run. Dont stress the little things right now, See what it makes at your desired boost, go from there, a well tuned car at 475rwhp will beat a 550rwhp with a mail order tune any day, its not max power that allows you to win; it is a usable power band. An engine will continue to make power as long as you push it, knock lets you know more often than not. Go to the tuner with the mind set of a max boost level you want to run, everything else will come in time. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

 

[qqqqball]

i really want to see how stock 3.0 head gasket handle 10, 11 psi or 500 whp. can't wait to see the dyno sheet and video

it should be able to take it provided you do not get detonation, Probably get head lift before the gasket blows.

 

[doc_tai]

I'm planning to turn the boost up next year and try to shoot for 500 whp too but with upgrade head gaskets, stud and meth injection. i have no balls to do it with stock head gaskets like u guys.

 

[EAC]

it should be able to take it provided you do not get detonation, Probably get head lift before the gasket blows.

Well, I hope I get neither.

DDozier and I are putting it on the dyno tommorow morning at 10am.

 

[NA1MT]

I'm not trying to break the motor. Lovefab said 475whp-500whp can be done reliably. That's all I'm looking for right now. :redface:

I know when to say stop, if the car just doesn't want to make the power then we'll find a nice stopping point.

Didn't say you are trying to break motor......I said pushing it to a possible failure....... trying to help you out a bit, coming from someone who is on their second motor build and used "pro" tuners. And the good luck was just wishing you well. My problem with that kit was the stock fuel rail......which I do not believe you have changed and a meth pump failure that went unnoticed. My AEM kit was bad right out of the box so I opted for an AquaMist HSF-5.

 

[EAC]

Didn't say you are trying to break motor......I said pushing it to a possible failure....... trying to help you out a bit, coming from someone who is on their second motor build and used "pro" tuners. And the good luck was just wishing you well. My problem with that kit was the stock fuel rail......which I do not believe you have changed and a meth pump failure that went unnoticed. My AEM kit was bad right out of the box so I opted for an AquaMist HSF-5.

Which version AEM Kit did you have? I know they've improved over the years. I've always tested my Meth kits every few hundred miles to make sure everything is in working order.

I didn't realize there was a problem with the stock fuel rail?

 

[NA1MT]

When getting up to the horsepower #s you are looking for the rear bank tends to go lean due to the fuel rail design. There is actually another thread up discussing it now. My AEM meth kit was a pretty early one and they replaced it....but I didn't want to risk my motor....haha.....got me real far anyway. I am in no way trying to derail your immediate power goals, I just air to the side of caution when you are setting yourself up for a $10k motor build(done properly) if there is even a slight hiccup. My advise was to enjoy it at a moderate level for a little bit before pushing the envelope. Plus......there will be no traction for you at those levels anyway.