HDMI vs Digital Audio?

[tosugrad]

Today I am running an old Denon AVR 1802 receiver with audio only coming in to it from a BR player and DirecTV box, both via Digital Optical. I run HDMIs from the units right to my 1080 Plasma.

Looking at upgrading to a new Denon unit (1602) that I can just run two HDMIs from those units into it and then 1 HDMI out to my TV.

Will I even notice an audio (or video?) difference from my setup today? If not, what does a new receiver with HDMI inputs/outputs do for me that I can't do with my 8 year old receiver today?

Thanks!

 

[flaminio]

HDMI is all digital, so unless the recevier does a D>A and then A>D when moving the signal around, there should not be any difference in the signal.

 

[tosugrad]

So by going to a new receiver with HDMI in/out I am not really gaining anything? Today my HDMI units run video direct to the TV.

 

[Patdeisa]

HDMI also allows discrete 8 channel versus 6 channel sound (7 main, 1 subwoofer versus 5 main 1 subwoofer) as well as higher data rates (i.e. up to lossless), over fiber optic or bitstream. Whether or not you can hear the difference is up for debate.

 

[tosugrad]

HDMI also allows discrete 8 channel versus 6 channel sound (7 main, 1 subwoofer versus 5 main 1 subwoofer) as well as higher data rates (i.e. up to lossless), over fiber optic or bitstream. Whether or not you can hear the difference is up for debate.

And if I am only running 5 speakers at the moment, probably even less of a chance :biggrin:

Thanks for the good info guys!

 

[NetViper]

I didn't think there is any difference between the Audio portion of HDMI and running a Digital Optical Cable.

I am using Digital Optical because my receiver doesn't do HDMI. I would like to upgrade it one day to get Dolby True HD etc, but I don't really expect to hear much difference if any.

 

[ilya]

You can also get lossless audio (PCM, Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master) using the Multichannel Analog Inputs on your receiver and not have HDMI. However, you would need a Bluray player with Multichannel Analog Outputs which generally run around $300.

 

[Olyar15]

Also keep in mind that your speakers will make a bigger difference than the digital audio signals.

 

[OutbackKY]

Also keep in mind that your speakers will make a bigger difference than the digital audio signals.

This is true... and an even bigger difference is in the listening environment. I suspect there would be no difference in audio quality at all between your current equipment and the equipment you are considering.

The best way to improve audio quality is to make sure your speaker placement is correct, then modify your listening environment to eliminate most of the audio reflections bouncing around the room. Adding "soft" elements to your decor - tapestries on walls, curtains over windows, rugs on hard floors - helps tremendously to tighten up the sound.

Bryan

 

[Cozmo]

I prefer the HDMI switching receivers just so I only need 1 HDMI cable going to the TV. It makes changing sources much easier since you only need to change the receiver from TV to DVD and it doesn't need other crap like macros and changing tv inputs.

2 HDMI inputs is about half as much as you should get at a minimum IMO. One of my receivers has 3 and it isn't enough. The other has 4 and it seems just right.

The high quality HD audio that your blu-rays come with is an added bonus. So is having a lot less cables running around.

Digital optical only does stereo PCM -or- Dolby Digital / DTS. All of those are way old and low bitrate sound formats (except PCM of course, but that's only stereo for CDs and such).

I imagine if you compared a dolby digital soundtrack side by side with a TrueHD one you'd be able to tell. Is it worth the money? That's for you to decide.

Dolby Digital: 16-bit, 48khz @ 640kbps maximum
TrueHD: supports 24-bit, 96khz audio channels at up to 18 Mbit/s
Those numbers are nowhere even close to each other.

As for the acoustic treatments, that does make a huge difference, and can be a fun DIY project.

I would check out the Onkyo TX-SR607 for a nice inexpensive HDMI switching receiver. I have an 805 and 606 and love them both.

 

[nsxotic911]

I prefer the HDMI switching receivers just so I only need 1 HDMI cable going to the TV. It makes changing sources much easier since you only need to change the receiver from TV to DVD and it doesn't need other crap like macros and changing tv inputs.

2 HDMI inputs is about half as much as you should get at a minimum IMO. One of my receivers has 3 and it isn't enough. The other has 4 and it seems just right.

The high quality HD audio that your blu-rays come with is an added bonus. So is having a lot less cables running around.

Digital optical only does stereo PCM -or- Dolby Digital / DTS. All of those are way old and low bitrate sound formats (except PCM of course, but that's only stereo for CDs and such).

I imagine if you compared a dolby digital soundtrack side by side with a TrueHD one you'd be able to tell. Is it worth the money? That's for you to decide.

Dolby Digital: 16-bit, 48khz @ 640kbps maximum
TrueHD: supports 24-bit, 96khz audio channels at up to 18 Mbit/s
Those numbers are nowhere even close to each other.

As for the acoustic treatments, that does make a huge difference, and can be a fun DIY project.

I would check out the Onkyo TX-SR607 for a nice inexpensive HDMI switching receiver. I have an 805 and 606 and love them both.

What he said.

 

[SilverStone05]

So by going to a new receiver with HDMI in/out I am not really gaining anything? Today my HDMI units run video direct to the TV.

Just quicker and easier switching between source inputs...less remote controls, and less wires to mess with behind your equipment. :biggrin:

 

[NetViper]

Just quicker and easier switching between source inputs...less remote controls, and less wires to mess with behind your equipment. :biggrin:

Would sure be nice to have ONE HDMI cable going to my TV vs 4!

If you do that though, do you have to have the receiver on at all times to get sound when you watch tv?

 

[SilverStone05]

Would sure be nice to have ONE HDMI cable going to my TV vs 4!

If you do that though, do you have to have the receiver on at all times to get sound when you watch tv?

Yes. No matter if you are using the speakers on the TV, or external speakers wired to the receiver/amplifier.

 

[Ryanmcd2]

Also don't waste your money on super high end HDMI cable's. I tried some from audioquest, also speaker cables that cost about $800 just for the hell of it. Well my 9$ amazon HDMI and my 20 year old lamp wire sounded as good as the $1000 + of cables so they went back to the store. no one has proof that it's any better and the markup on them is high. A monster cable at bestbuy that sells for 120$ cost is about 14$ that's why they push them..

 

[quack]

Also don't waste your money on super high end HDMI cable's. I tried some from audioquest, also speaker cables that cost about $800 just for the hell of it. Well my 9$ amazon HDMI and my 20 year old lamp wire sounded as good as the $1000 + of cables so they went back to the store. no one has proof that it's any better and the markup on them is high. A monster cable at bestbuy that sells for 120$ cost is about 14$ that's why they push them..

ha glad you didn't fall for it. Most audiophiles I've talked to are pretty much morons when it comes to a good system. digital is digital so either it's going to work or not. higher quality just gets you more useable distance. When it comes to analog, there is a difference for unbalanced signal cable (mainly on noise rejection) but not much for amplified sections of cable. [I used to compete in IASCA amateur SQ before it went downhill.]

 

[SilverStone05]

Also don't waste your money on super high end HDMI cable's. I tried some from audioquest, also speaker cables that cost about $800 just for the hell of it. Well my 9$ amazon HDMI and my 20 year old lamp wire sounded as good as the $1000 + of cables so they went back to the store. no one has proof that it's any better and the markup on them is high. A monster cable at bestbuy that sells for 120$ cost is about 14$ that's why they push them..

Monoprice.com is an excellent place to purchase any type of cable you may need for your audio setup.

 

[flaminio]

Also don't waste your money on super high end HDMI cable's.

This is true for pretty much any digital cable. If you put 10010110 into one end and get 10010110 out the other, it doesn't matter whether you spent $5 or $500 for the cable.

 

[ilya]

This is true for pretty much any digital cable. If you put 10010110 into one end and get 10010110 out the other, it doesn't matter whether you spent $5 or $500 for the cable.

This holds true as long as the cable can handle the bandwith. Too many HDMI cables (especially the longer ones) fail to pass 1080P/60 properly even though they claim to. Plenty of expensive cables fail even at 30 feet, it's pathetic.

Expensive is definitely not better in HDMI. The absolute BEST place to buy HDMI cables for the average joe is bluejeanscable.com.
It's fairly priced and as good as anything out there, regardless of price.
And as Silverstone mentioned, if you're really on the cheap, Monoprice.com HDMI are actually quite good too and very inexpensive. I know a good amount of people who have used them for 30-50 foot runs without issue.

 

[Cozmo]

And as Silverstone mentioned, if you're really on the cheap, Monoprice.com HDMI are actually quite good too and very inexpensive. I know a good amount of people who have used them for 30-50 foot runs without issue.

I've bought several home theaters worth of HDMI cables from monoprice and I've only had one of them fail on me out of dozens. They're so cheap I just order a couple extra every time I place an order just so I have them around. I've done 2 fairly long projector runs without issues, but 90% of my use has been the 6' ones. I've also used one of their HDMI switches, network cables, fiber toslink, component video, power cords, and who knows what else. I've always been happy with what I get from them and won't buy any cables at a local store unless it is an emergency. I don't really see any good reason to spend more money.

 

[SilverStone05]

This holds true as long as the cable can handle the bandwith. Too many HDMI cables (especially the longer ones) fail to pass 1080P/60 properly even though they claim to. Plenty of expensive cables fail even at 30 feet, it's pathetic.

Expensive is definitely not better in HDMI. The absolute BEST place to buy HDMI cables for the average joe is bluejeanscable.com.
It's fairly priced and as good as anything out there, regardless of price.
And as Silverstone mentioned, if you're really on the cheap, Monoprice.com HDMI are actually quite good too and very inexpensive. I know a good amount of people who have used them for 30-50 foot runs without issue.

I'm using 9 of them on 30 foot in wall runs....no problems so far...knock on wood.

 

[Arshad]

This is true for pretty much any digital cable. If you put 10010110 into one end and get 10010110 out the other, it doesn't matter whether you spent $5 or $500 for the cable.

This isn't entirely true. The problem is that when the signal travels over a wire, it will degrade electrically over the length of the cable where the original square waveform progressively gets rounder.

So although you expect to get the same digital bits out the other end, the reality is that there may be errors in the digital transmission caused by this degradation as well as interference from signal reflections, etc.

HDMI video uses TMDS for transmission, so there is a rudimentary level of error correction, BUT there is no concept of retransmission of bad blocks. So it's definitely possible to get errors on the receiving end which can result in artifacts or corruption, which can manifest itself as sparkles or more obvious macroblock level errors.

This is why cables are rated by length and bandwidth and why you can't just get a 500ft HDMI cable unless you go cat5 or fiber optic. If you have a short cable length of a few feet then yes, you can pretty much put the cheapest cables on and you won't run into any issues. As soon as you start getting into long lengths however, you need to pay attention to the quality of the cable and its specifications.

 

[tosugrad]

Thanks guys, lots of good info here!

 

[SilverStone05]

I saw a write up comparison somewhere showing the results of bench testing several HDMI cables up against each other.

Since both MonsterCable and MonoPrice cables were pitted in the competition, I'll see if I can find it.

If memory serves, the monoprice cables bested the Monsters in almost every category, despite the severe difference in price.

 

[BD]

You're running a Denon AVR 1802 and you're worrying about the differences between HDMI and DA cables?

It's like running a Civic and want to know the difference between Racing fuel and 86 Octane. :biggrin::wink::tongue: