Higher rate or more sway...

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Hey guys,

A little confused here, I went to the track yesterday the car felt good and it's has felt so far.
At the same time... I feel like in the chicanes and esses the car takes "too long" to weight tranfer, relativity speaking.
I think thats shaving me time since I have to wait for the car to settle before I can attack the next apex or before I can get on the trottle.


So I think my solution may lie on two things, one could be just stiffen up my sways, Dali type Q:
http://daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=2407

Or upping my spring rate, which at this moment is 11kg front 9kg back and

the dampers are set full hard rear and front are two clicks before full hard.

What do you guys think?


-MSR

 

[docjohn]

would you say the car is understearing or over? and do you already have the rear noncompliance beam/toe links? what tires and hot pressures? what shocks?

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Humm, I would say the car may have a hint of oversteer, which if great.

Beam and toe non-compliance clamps have been done along with comptech camber bushings.
Camber all around is -3*.

Coilovers are JIC, hot tire pressures 38F 35R.

Thanks,

-MSR

would you say the car is understearing or over? and do you already have the rear noncompliance beam/toe links? what tires and hot pressures? what shocks?

 

[docjohn]

try a couple of things..reduce the shock settings in the rear, start at half stiff.Bump up your rear hot pressure to 38. Your spring rates are fine no need to change those.For a track car it can't hurt to have a stiffer front bar.If you are still tracking up north the lower track temps may also be giving you some "unsettled" feelings.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Nice, I will try that for sure.
Yeah, ambient temps were 10celcius, I don't think track temps were much higher than that.


I just double check, the front sway is 1" and the rear is .875" , can't remember their wall thickness ...
-MSR

try a couple of things..reduce the shock settings in the rear, start at half stiff.Bump up your rear hot pressure to 38. Your spring rates are fine no need to change those.For a track car it can't hurt to have a stiffer front bar.If you are still tracking up north the lower track temps may also be giving you some "unsettled" feelings.

 

[Tamar]

If your car won't change direction quickly it sounds like under steer.
I have regularly tracked my car at Cayuga and Mosport DDT over the past 3 or 4 years often at the current temperatures.
I have JIC shocks 9KGs front and 10KGs rear and currently am running Kumho V700 tires (235/40-17 F and 285/30-18 R).
Anyway, I was running standard swaybars and decided to try an NSX-R swaybar on the front. The result was huge under steer and no matter what I tried I could not get the front tires up to temperature. I put the stock front swaybar back on and the handling returned and I was able to get the tire temperatures back up to where they should be.

Might be something you could try.

 

[docjohn]

If your car won't change direction quickly it sounds like under steer.
I have regularly tracked my car at Cayuga and Mosport DDT over the past 3 or 4 years often at the current temperatures.
I have JIC shocks 9KGs front and 10KGs rear and currently am running Kumho V700 tires (235/40-17 F and 285/30-18 R).
Anyway, I was running standard swaybars and decided to try an NSX-R swaybar on the front. The result was huge under steer and no matter what I tried I could not get the front tires up to temperature. I put the stock front swaybar back on and the handling returned and I was able to get the tire temperatures back up to where they should be.

Might be something you could try.

thats because you are running stiffer rear springs the op is running the more typical and prefered stiffer front springs.

 

[Tamar]

thats because you are running stiffer rear springs the op is running the more typical and prefered stiffer front springs.

Surely stiffening the front more would produce more push?

 

[docjohn]

to a point but you are already starting with a setup that on the nsx tends to oversteer,so my recomendations for the op are to try and increase his rear grip.Balance is all relative to what your basic setup is doing.

 

[stuntman]

Surely stiffening the front more would produce more push?

More push = more front tire heat. Not sure how to explain your temp findings. What are hot temps and pressures?

MSR. What tires and size and what are your hot inside / middle / outside tire temps?

 

[docjohn]

Ahh good Billy is locked in..i can "sneak" outa this thread now:redface:

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Thanks John for your help .

Billy, it's so stupid but, I don't have my temperatures recorded,
Amazingly .




Tires are Dirrzas star specs. 235 40 17, 275 35 18.

I am Not sure if under/over steer it's the problem here, I just feel like I have to Wait for the car to settle trough out esses a little too
Long.
that's why I was thinking that transfer weight is the problem.

Ahh good Billy is locked in..i can "sneak" outa this thread now:redface:

 

[stuntman]

Thanks John for your help .

Billy, it's so stupid but, I don't have my temperatures recorded,
Amazingly .




Tires are Dirrzas star specs. 235 40 17, 275 35 18.

I am Not sure if under/over steer it's the problem here, I just feel like I have to Wait for the car to settle trough out esses a little too
Long.
that's why I was thinking that transfer weight is the problem.

What do you mean by your waiting for the car to settle?

A stiffer front bar will make the front more responsive at the sacrifice of some front grip. Your setup sounds in the ballpark. Fwiw im getting the dali trophy 1.125" bar.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Ok, so lets say I just came out from a late apex right hander , and now I am approaching the esses(left-right) , I clear the left hander now I am into the early entry of the right hander... And I want to start getting on gas but by now the weight of the car is sitting on it's left side, and if I get on the gas right then I will probably brake it loose into oversteer....because the car has not settle yet. Does that make any sence?

Oversteer or not stiffly sprung enough?

-MSR

 

[docjohn]

How old are your jic dampers?

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Just got them rebuilt/refresh this past spring.
No leaks at all.

-MSR

 

[stuntman]

Ok, so lets say I just came out from a late apex right hander , and now I am approaching the esses(left-right) , I clear the left hander now I am into the early entry of the right hander... And I want to start getting on gas but by now the weight of the car is sitting on it's left side, and if I get on the gas right then I will probably brake it loose into oversteer....because the car has not settle yet. Does that make any sence?

Oversteer or not stiffly sprung enough?

-MSR

Its easy to throw a bunch of parts at a car and ruin the balance, but since i've driven many NSXs, some with your camber, tire sizes, spring rates, ... I think you're in the ballpark.

The NSX is very well balanced and when that balance is maintained and not ruined by poor spring rate choices (yours dosn't fall in this category), then the car will oversteer or understeer depending on YOUR INPUTS. Often the car will do an undesirable thing (over or understeer) because your driving inputs are telling it to do that. I havn't seen your driving or worked with you but the car is one of the best balanced cars ive driven and often the problem is the driving inputs, not the car.

Now with the power you're making, you might want to dial in some more understeer which I would do with a larger front bar like the Dali Trophy 1.125" bar. That should be enough but from there I would add more front spring, but I would try the bar first.

I also would highly suggest getting a PROBE-type tire pyrometer and measure your outside/middle/inside tire temps and dial in your camber from there. I still really like the -2* front -2.5* rear camber as -3* front often gives the car too much front grip, especially with camber gain as the car rolls. That's a free mod that I might try before the bar or at least with the bar. That might be enough.



0.02

 

[docjohn]

I agree with Billy that you may need instruction/coaching to see if you are the "weak link". The only other observation i might make from your track pics since i am unfamiliar with the jic susp..is could you be too low? could you be bump steering or running out of spring? that would temporarly drive your loaded springrate to infinity...and beyond:tongue:

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

I have measure the bumb distance and I have enough room, I don't think I am riding the bumps stops.

With that said, I thank you very much guys I really value your inputs.
I will take the info in this thread and start working first with tire pressures and camber adjustment depending on tire temperatures.
Also I would read into my videos and see what Im doing wrong, I got not coaching so Im pretty sure that has lots to do with. But I am not doing that bad :tongue:


I will report back!

-MSR

I agree with Billy that you may need instruction/coaching to see if you are the "weak link". The only other observation i might make from your track pics since i am unfamiliar with the jic susp..is could you be too low? could you be bump steering or running out of spring? that would temporarly drive your loaded springrate to infinity...and beyond:tongue:

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

So today at last minute I went off to the track, and so glad I did.
It was great day. set my hot pressures to 38psi all around went out and this time I decided to push a bit harder and I found the car stepping on me, came back in and set my pressures to 38F 36R, back out, better but not great.

Came in again, same pressures but this time dialed back the rear dampers 4clicks and Bingo !!!! I can really push to a really faint feel of oversteer... Love it.

This was my last track day of the season just as my rear pads call it the day.
Time to work on upgrades!!!

Thanks guys.

-MSR