Honda Challenge

[NSXLuvr]

Just curious what you east coast/west coast guys are tracking in the Honda challenge series. I was looking at a spec miata but decided to widen my search. The Challenge is in its first year here in Tx. So, I don't have much info about it. I am following threads at nasaforums to learn as much as possible.

Couple of questions:
1. what are you driving?
2. what are the start up costs.
3. What kind of costs per season of racing?
4. when completely modded are the hybrids neutral? I keep thinking RWD is the place to start. But that would mean NSX or S2k. A little too pricey for me.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

1. I'm driving 1999 Civic Si with RSX type R motor in H1. Used to drive 1992 Civic with ITR motor. I'm currently northern california Champion.
2. The start up cost depends on the class choice, car choice and so forth. Roughly to build a car is around $15K. Buying used built one can mean cheaper in the beginning but will end up the same cost cause you will make some changes to your liking.
3. Cost per season vary on if you towing or not. When I used to race the 1992 Civic, I was driving from and to the track. Much cheaper than now. Usually just under $1K per weekend including room, food, gas, and factor in wear items such as brakes and tires.
4. Any car can be made competitive. The rules pretty much guarantee that.

Let me know if we can help out. I'm currently building an H4 Integra for a client.
We offer turnkey race car build to your specification with my experience or we offer engine package as well. Feel free to inquire.

www.prima-racing.com

Specmiata is fine and attractive at first. But to be competitive you will need to spend around $25K for the car! The built engine that front runners run usually cost around $5K a piece. Not a cheap series anymore.

 

[Ponyboy]

I echo Andrie's comments. In particular to the SM series. To add to it, the SM was great to throw into corners and braked on a dime but the lack of hp was slightly, errr greatly unfulfilling. Controling the rotation of the car via the accelerator was totally absent. It's all momentum. Throw the car in the corner, feel it "set," mash the throttle, wait 5 minutes for the straight to end, and you're gold. I've seen SM setups for as low as 10K. But to be competitive, Andrie is right, it's going to be 25k+.

From my own research, outside of karting, the lower classes of HC are probably some of the most inexpensive forms of motorsports around. Plus, I'd love the competition in a year or two.

Whatever you choose, good luck!

 

[Telly Chang]

Andrie is right, you will need to spend $18k-$25k on a SM to run upfront. By upfront, I mean a top 3 finish. Most of the front runners have a built engine as Andrie mentioned.

However, you can build a competitive top-10 Spec Miata for $10k-$15k. I built my SM out of my street Miata, and with its original stock motor (which currently has 100+ track/race days on it), I've finished as high as 8th out of 50 Spec Miatas in my local SCCA region this year. I currently drive my SM to and from the track and spend about $500 - $600 per race weekend (including food, lodging, gas, tires, brake pads, etc.)

The only thing that's preventing me from jumping over to join Andrie in the NorCal Honda Challenge is the relatively low number of cars in Honda Challenge. The Spec Miata class is fairly large in the NorCal region, and I'm addicted to racing with 50+ Spec Miata drivers at each race. For the entire duration of my race, I am usually dicing it out with a bunch of other SMs around me ALL THE TIME. In Honda Challenge where the field is smaller (typically 5-10 drivers in NorCal), sometimes you only battle for position in the first few laps, but then the field spreads out after the first few laps and you are just maintaining your position instead of battling throughout the entire race. For me personally, I like to battle constantly so that I can learn to improve my race craft. By constantly battling, I mean there is always 2-3 cars right in front of you and 2-3 cars right behind you! With a much smaller field, I worry that I'll get bored after the first few laps.

That said, if Honda Challenge ever gets more popular, I'd love to try Honda Challenge and duke it out w/ Andrie & others.

Regarding Ponyboy's comment about SM being unfulfilling, that all depends on how you look at it. A low HP car will reveal whether you are a talented driver OR just a so-so driver that needs HP to cover up mistakes. In SM, if you make a small mistake, 3-5 drivers will pass you. However, if you execute a turn perfectly, you will probably overtake 3-5 drivers at the exit. That, to me, is very fulfilling.

Lastly, you can control the rotation of a SM via the throttle, and it's actually easier to learn this on a lower HP car than a higher HP car in my opinion.

Telly
'91 NSX
'94 SM

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

The NorCal Honda Challenge is still in its infancy (first year). We typically have aboout 10 competitors per race. However, we do have corssover with SoCal which yielded around 40 cars, which is pretty decent field. Next year there will be even more, but still no competition compare to the popularity with specmiata.

Building a car could be cheap for either class. It depends on how competitive you want to be. In Honda Challenge or specmiata is possible to build a car at around $6K.

I have to disagree with Telly about sometimes you only battle for position in the first few laps. You all can see all my tape where I battle for position on each laps. That being said, there will always people that are not in contention and don't have to fight for certain laps. Same thing can be said with Specmiata. It all depends on you, if you are looking for action, just make sure you can be competitive. Boring to me is not able to fight for top contender.

Honda Challenge will grow fast. There is no questions that Honda is one of the most popular car out there. The series is still new. We see more people joining in every year.

Regarding Ponyboy's comment about SM being unfulfilling, that all depends on how you look at it. A low HP car will reveal whether you are a talented driver OR just a so-so driver that needs HP to cover up mistakes. In SM, if you make a small mistake, 3-5 drivers will pass you. However, if you execute a turn perfectly, you will probably overtake 3-5 drivers at the exit. That, to me, is very fulfilling.

To me SM is also unfulfilling. However, I disagree about the notion of if you have low HP car you need to be smooth and reveal more talented driver. Your argument only work if you compare a high HP car battling with low HP car. If you have the whole field with high HP car, how the hell one can mask their skill with HP? Everyone has the same, and if you make a mistake someone will pull hard on you. The difference will even be more staggering as they will pull harder as it require big HP to accelerate faster than low HP.
I would argue one need more skill to keep a fast car fast and not to make mistake and drive at the limit. How can one argue that driving a fast car is easier than a slow car?

I do agree on your last statement that SM is an easy car to learn and drive. It is a fun one too. However it is not my cup of tea. I gave it a try and didn't really like it.

C'mon Telly, give Honda Challenge a try. I know you're going to like it. Missed seeing you out on the track and talk trash. Kenji can't talk trash as good as you

 

[kenjiMR]

Kenji can't talk trash as good as you

Hey watch it there... I'm still on provisional license. Wait till I go balls out... I'll make you eat your ego. oh, btw, who beat who the last two races? huh huh?

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Kenji, watch the video againa nd see that blue blur getting passed before T1

 

[RacerX-21]

Both higher and lower horsepower classes are challenging, directly proportional to your competition.
I personally have a great time in slow and fast cars. The slow cars force you to use every bit of the car and track, while still staying smooth and consistent. I love the fine line on the very edge of control. I also think that driving showroom stock cars and spec cars will more quickly teach you speed in the corners because of their momentum needs. However that skill alone won’t make you a great GT driver. The higher HP adds another group of variables to master. Throttle in and off the corner is the first that comes to mind, but less obvious with higher HP (and usually heavier) you have much higher speed capability. With this speed you will encounter turns that in the spec cars were flat footed, and now need to be felt. Your still trying to race the edge, but now it’s your edge as the car has more left to help you make a mistake. Braking requires enhanced skill, as your speed and weight increases. Car protection also comes into play, many high hp cars have the capability of destructing them selves by the end of the race… clutches, gears, tires, brakes, even engines. Not to say that because the faster requires more skills that this is where you should learn. I have seen racers who started here that lack the skills learned from slower cars.
My humble suggestion is that regardless of what series you choose, start with a slower, reliable and less expensive car with lots of competition. Learn the skills that will make you a better driver, then reevaluate the move in class that’s right for you. (You will forever have more to learn especially with changing classes.) Many of the best drivers did it this way, regardless if they attribute it to the path they took or their natural skill. Bottom line is that no matter what class I’m in, I always finish the race with a smile… even when it’s in a class I like a little less.

Most important is to start and do as much racing as possible, what class is less important for now.

 

[justin hall]

... It's all momentum. Throw the car in the corner, feel it "set," mash the throttle, wait 5 minutes for the straight to end, and you're gold.

your not near the limit of adhesion then. when your running at or near track record times I'd suggest it is a bit more complex than that.

 

[Ponyboy]

Bovine feces.

 

[justin hall]

Bovine feces.

intelligent

 

[NSXGeek!]

He kind of knows what he's talking about

http://www.sfrscca.org/Results/20040711/gq8.htm

 

[Ponyboy]

intelligent

Indeed. At least I capitalized and punctuated properly. :wink:

With all due respect, $10 bucks says your an SM racer with a corncob stuck up your butt. Because only a SM racer would have gotten so upset with the simple comment you quoted. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and the amount of variables and track conditions that it works for is so vast (i.e. traffic, tire condition, qualifying, endurance race, etc) that it shades your commentary. I reserve the right to find the horsepower aspect of SM unfulfilling. If you like SM then more power to you - I'm not going to begrudge you that.

FWIW, the method I made mention of was consistently within 1 second of qualifying time and good enough to finish 3rd in class (and the top SM). Maybe it's a question of driving style (rhetorical)? And if you have a different one, good for you.

 

[Ponyboy]

He kind of knows what he's talking about

http://www.sfrscca.org/Results/20040711/gq8.htm

Sustained.

That's hilarious.

 

[justin hall]

With all due respect, $10 bucks says your an SM racer with a corncob stuck up your butt.

Safe bet since your posting after someone who posted a race result (hey geek I have a lot of first's, how come you posted a second ) ? Safe bet, of course except for the corn cob part that is - does that mean you owe me $10? Your need to berate rather than have an intelligent conversation pretty much assures this to be my last response to your adolescent posts. Just as an fyi I am a lurker in these forums as a previous nsx owner, still nsx lover, and nsx instructor, not an SM racer with an axe to grind.

I reserve the right to find the horsepower aspect of SM unfulfilling..

Clearly reading isnt your forte either, as the part of your post that I quoted had nothing to do with lack of HP in SM, the part of your post I quoted had to do with how you simplified driving a momentum car. For you to say "Throw the car in the corner, feel it "set," mash the throttle " incorrectly implies there is no need for trail braking, trailing throttle oversteer, throttle on oversteer, (sorry if you cant induce oversteer), or any other advanced techniques. In fact, these and many other techniques are actually more important in a momentum car, since you cant simply downshift to make up for a mistake. I do miss the gobs of power available in my 125cc shifter…..

Honestly, on one point, I would agree with you, at this weight and adhesion if these cars had 175 HP I would be in heaven, but no series or car is perfect but as an overall race series and the level of competition on the west coast SM is appealing to me - hence the reason l left your lack of HP part out. Perhaps if I had initially agreed with some component of your post you wouldn’t be so insecure and need to belittle?

I will, in closing, disagree with a few comments made by you and my friends andrie and telly. I had less than $20k into my SCCA Pro winning, SCCA Western States Championship winning, and SFR SCCA region winning championship car, a car that finished the season with 7 wins and off the podium once out of 16 races. You really can go racing and run up front for less than $20k......

 

[RacerX-21]

Just curious what you east coast/west coast guys are tracking in the Honda challenge series. I was looking at a spec miata but decided to widen my search. The Challenge is in its first year here in Tx. So, I don't have much info about it. I am following threads at nasaforums to learn as much as possible.

Couple of questions:
1. what are you driving?
2. what are the start up costs.
3. What kind of costs per season of racing?
4. when completely modded are the hybrids neutral? I keep thinking RWD is the place to start. But that would mean NSX or S2k. A little too pricey for me.

Thanks in advance.

Ok ... back to the subject-

The last post emphasized cost, and that is very important to the longevity of pursuing your goals.

I purchased a 1997 ACR Neon for getting my pro license without needing to rent an expensive National class car. The car was fully prepped and only cost me $4200 delivered to my door. I used some of my own skills to improve the car. I won my first race, and qualified second in my first national race. The following season, I introduced my wife to road racing. She’s a factory backed World champion pro Jet Ski racer, so her racing skills were already established. In this $4200 car she won 8 of the 11 SSC races she entered, and finished second the remaining three for the overall 2004 series championship. I follow the classifieds and am sure you can get into someone else’s loss inexpensively. I see Hondas frequently, because they make fast and reliable race cars. The per race cost was about $1000 with new tires, but in a slower class car you don’t have to buy new tires for maybe 4 races. (But if your a front runner, and can afford it... I would) Don’t be shy of front wheel drive, they can teach you a thing or two, and can be great fun. Oh I sold that Neon last month for $4500, so I can move her up to the SM series next season. In the South east SM is big with great drivers, both current and past pro drivers along with pro level drivers who don’t have the time or maybe money to race pro. If you can do good here, you can race in any series. I think there were 200 different Miatas entered throughout the 2004 south east season. I haven’t run the Honda challenge yet, my obligated schedule was either conflicting or the location was too far. but I am looking forward to it in the future... I love the Honda quality! If I don’t sell my NSX quickly, maybe they can figure out a way to class it this season.

 

[NSXLuvr]

Thanks for the replies guys(both pro SM and HC). I have ALOT of learning to do. I suck at present. I mean SUCK. I have done a handful of HPDE's. that's all. Its just that the rest of the gang in my area has been tracking for years. They are moving up to SM, or PCA.

I talked to the PCA guy last week. He says that his "pseudo" 993 RS America is a much much better car than his 996TT at the track. It gives a lot more feedback and is safer- due to cage/restraints etc etc. He told me to stop abusing the NSX. Make it a garage queen and buy a SM or HC or 944 track car. My skills will improve quickly, and I will feel safer(meaning I will be able to push the car more). So, it kinda got me thinking. Maybe I should get a dedicated track car. I think I still have a season or so left in the NSX before I can convince my wife. :wink:

btw, here is a pic of his 993(gutted to european rs america specs)

 

[NSXTC]

I haven’t been around this forum for awhile, but I saw this thread and wanted to reiterate what RacerX-21 is trying to tell you. After several years of open track with the NSX, I went to PRO-7 which is the most popular SCCA regional class here in SoCal (basically, it’s like a totally gutted spec-7 car – 1st gen RX7). Anyway, it’s not about the car, it’s about you, improving your skills, and your competition. The guys I race with now are the best drivers I have ever seen…no comparison to any open track event, simply a different level of driver skill. We have normally 20 to 30 of these little RX7’s staring each race, so chances are, there will be someone on your skill level to duke it out with during the race, which is one of the key ways to get faster, not to mention have a lot of fun. In deciding what class to start with, don’t think along the lines of what brand of car, do a little bit of investigation and see what is popular in your region. You will find in general of course that the less expensive classes tend to have more participants and better competition, just because they are more accessible to your fellow competitors.

NSXLuvr – you got to realize that a Porche guy will always recommend P-cars above all others, Honda guys will do the same with H-cars and so on. You will get to the point (if you aren’t there already) when you want something cheaper to repair and safer for you to be in (i.e. roll cage, fire system, etc.) and that can make a big difference mentally in trying to go 10/10’s on the track. Plus, it’s no fun getting rock chips and tire smudge marks all over a beautiful NSX!

Lastly, our region will be staring up with HC in 2005. It sounds like it will be a popular class, so we'll keep our eyes on it and see how it develops! In the meantime, here's a little video of the last race of our 2004 season. Enjoy!

 

[jgtcnsx]

seems like alot of people will be running the k series

 

[paladin]

How about the H4 class?
It seems like a much lower-cost alternative, to help get our racing feet wet without dropping tons of cash for the hybrids?
I'm not sure how much it would cost to build up an h4 car, maybe andrie is better suited to answer something like that.
One of these days i'll have to head out to thunderhill and check you guys out

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

How about the H4 class?
It seems like a much lower-cost alternative, to help get our racing feet wet without dropping tons of cash for the hybrids?
I'm not sure how much it would cost to build up an h4 car, maybe andrie is better suited to answer something like that.
One of these days i'll have to head out to thunderhill and check you guys out

To build an H4 car can be as low as $6K. I have a friend who done it. It is not easy, though.

I would say, the typical budget guys will have to spend about $10K to build an H4 car. This will be a very competitive car.

However, to maximize the rules, and to build a good looking fast car, the budget should be about $15K - $17K.

To build an H1 car is not that much more expensive. A compeitive H1 car can be build as low as $12.5K. My H1 car is about $22K.

Like most people that races before will tell you. The best deal to be had is to buy an already built car. Keep in mind that in the long run, the cost will be about the same since you will change some to your liking.

The best way to build a car is to have someone experience build one for you. This way you can go through the process and make sure everything is to your liking.

We currently building an H4 car for our client. He want the best of everything, and the budget is about $15K.

 

[NSXLuvr]

What are the differences between all the classes? does anybody have a link?

btw, in my original post, I asked about FWD vs. RWD. except for the s2000, or the NSX, all other HC cars are fwd. I figured you guys can dial out some of the understeer, but don't u find it difficult to deal with the inherent weaknesses of FWD, i.e. from reading Going Faster- they state that the front wheels shouldn't be responsible for accelerating, braking, and turning.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

There is no doubt about the FWD weaknesses compare to RWD. But that's what the rules are for, to equalize them. Driving a FWD car can be really challenging.

the rules can be viewed here: www.hondachallenge.com