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How many owners have crashed their NSX by sliding the rear end out???
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Agreed, staying on the throttle is the key since the throttle is the so called "grip" that you need to prevent spinouts, I think what may be helpful is a thread to discuss how to countersteer in the event someone does spin out.
Race drivers prefer a car that is easy to "rotate" in the corners. The mid-engine design of the NSX offers the ability to do just that. Those of you spinning your cars on public roads are doubtless exceeding your limitations (and blaming the car) in an otherwise very capable car.
Slow down, and improve your driving skills on the track.
Slow down, and improve your driving skills on the track.
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Mitch, I do not disagree with you but what happens when something unexpected happens like it did to me 12-11-2006 when a car lost control and headed uncontrollably towards me. Pictures are posted here. On the first picture one can see 4 tire tracks on the wet grass made by my NSX getting slightly sideways. On one end, if I was driving a different car that morning I would have probably not be able to get out of the way fast enough. On the other hand however, once out of the way of the oncoming car out of control, I remember having to fight with the NSX to prevent it from spinning out of control. I was lucky that everything turned out ok for me, but had I not tracked my NSX and tested its limit, I think I may have crashed on my own after avoiding the oncoming car. Our BMW would have reacted in a much more benign way once off the road, if it had been able to get out of the way as fast as the NSX did in the first place.
NSXs spin because most of the weight is in the center of the car. With the passengers and engine right in the center + lightweight Al frame - Honda engineers designed it this way. It's why the car turns so fast and easy. The downside is that when it loses grip, it will spin much faster than a normal car. This has to be why the NSX was one of the first cars with stability control to try and stop it before it breaks loose. Using tires with more grip than honda expected delays the spin but also makes it harder to recover (or prevent) as the speed/forces will be much higher when it slips.
A great analogy is an ice skater spinning with their arms out - it's relatively slow. When they pull in their arms the rotational speed dramatically increases. Moving the motor towards the center of a car does the same thing. A corvette has the big motor up front and the transmission in the back so it is more stable but also slower to turn.
A great analogy is an ice skater spinning with their arms out - it's relatively slow. When they pull in their arms the rotational speed dramatically increases. Moving the motor towards the center of a car does the same thing. A corvette has the big motor up front and the transmission in the back so it is more stable but also slower to turn.
Good explanation, but did you mean Traction Control, not stability.
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eventhough he's indeed referring to the TCS (Traction Control System), this system is performing additional tasks than a common TCS does in modern cars. TCS in modern cars mostly prevent driving wheel from spinning. Electronic stability algorithms prevent the car from spinning out using TCS, ABS and more elaborate sensors (gyros) than the NSX ever had. This said however, the NSX's TCS accomplishes more tasks than modern TCS, without the refinement of modern ESPs and thus could be regarded as a primitive stability control system.
I'm pretty sure TCS is in the NSX just traction control (cutts fuel when wheel slippage is detected) and nothing else. What do you believe it does in addition to this? I know my MDX does more than traction control with it's stability control turned on (like applying particular brakes when vehicle is starting to spin, applying particular front brakes to aid 4WD traction since front diff is open, etc), but the NSX does nothing of the sort (it's traction control only).
I would NOT recommend relying on TCS to help control/prevent a spin...especially in the dry (but probably just as much so in the wet). It is slow to kick in in a slide (in my opinion) unless it's a serious power slide and is generally doing exactly what you don't want to do in a slide (lift throttle). I've forgotten to turn it off at the track and didn't like as it makes things less predictable (throttle potentially cut when I don't want/expect it cut). It does seem to work pretty well to address wheelspin when acclerating in a straight line (got an inch or so off the ground under WOT over a crest on a straight at one track when TSC was on and the only indication of such was the flashing green light in the middle of the tach...no significant jump in REVs from wheels spinning up), but preventing or mitigating spins is not one of it's uses.
latzke - Please do a little research on the subject.
Take a look at the early brochures that explain the TCS and the amazing things it was intended for and can do.
See:
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/tcslsd.htm
http://www.nsxprime.com/Gallery/press/tidh/tidh-38.htm
http://www.nsxprime.com/Gallery/press/tidh/tidh.htm
Thank you!
Trev
Take a look at the early brochures that explain the TCS and the amazing things it was intended for and can do.
See:
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/tcslsd.htm
http://www.nsxprime.com/Gallery/press/tidh/tidh-38.htm
http://www.nsxprime.com/Gallery/press/tidh/tidh.htm
Thank you!
Trev
Interesting that it tries to be useful in cornering scenarios (thanks for the pointers). From my experience (that I'm certainly not alone in, as evidenced by the comments in the FAQ and many others in the forums) it does a very poor job at enhancing dry, at-the-limit, cornering stability...when it's not making things worse and unpredictable. The best feature seems to be the switch.
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...and I'm pretty sure you are incorrect. Check the NSX book litterature and you'll see. You cannot compare the stability control of a modern car (MDX) with the primitive system in the NSX (see below why)...
you are comparing an 18-year (circa 1989) safety system with modern systems. Apples to dinosaurus eggs.
Just imagine if you had to browse this very webpage with an IBM AT and a modem at 1200 bps... that's a comparable leap of technology between the computer in the NSX and the ones equiping today's car.
I see your point. But as you stated, under that level of dynamic stress, the NSX reacted and got you out of the way and safely through. Another car may not have been able to respond and could have landed you in the middle of the accident and severely injured. Any car pushed to a certain point will lose control, but you managed to stay relatively in control in the NSX. I will take a little sliding any day over slamming into another car. By the way....glad you are okay. That stuff is scary.
I agree with your ending statement concerning the TC in dry weather: "The best feature seems to be the switch".:biggrin:
I'm not comparing the NSX's TCS with another system (I mentioned the MDX's, but certainly am not comparing the two). People have had a poor opinion of the NSX TCS in the dry since it came out...and I completely stand by my recommendation to not count on it to save one's butt if they're about to spin (despite that Honda intended it to help out in such situations).
I'm curious if some simple alignment mods (more negative rear camber) would make for a more forgiving handling experience.
My FD had a similar issue of grip towards the limit and snapping loose.
After a few experiences of that, I decided to install upgraded sway bars, larger wheels with staggered tire size, koni coil overs, and more negative camber.
Since then the car has been much more forgiving, even in the wet....
My FD had a similar issue of grip towards the limit and snapping loose.
After a few experiences of that, I decided to install upgraded sway bars, larger wheels with staggered tire size, koni coil overs, and more negative camber.
Since then the car has been much more forgiving, even in the wet....
I would be the first to agree that the TCS on the NSX is old compared to many other current systems. But I would not dismiss it because of just that reason.
The TCS on the NSX was ment to be a traction control system on a high-end sportscar. As such it will try to correct the driver who has gone over the limit in a small way. Just like any other modern system. But the system, and I think this goes for practically EVERY TCS system out there, is not ment to work together WITH the driver but just as a stand alone device.
In others words, if YOU, as the driver, know exactly what to do, the TCS will work against you. In most cars and most situations drivers get into problems because they DO NOT know what they are doing and then the system will try to get them out of trouble.
That's why you can switch it off on the NSX.
That's why every NSX track driver that I've ever met switches it off as soons as he gets on the track.
And as far as stability control systems go, most of them are just a tool to combine comfortable driving with good cornering capability. And even then, these systems are always setup in a generic way. In other words, the manufacturer decides how the system should react in certain conditions, taking into account average driver, average conditions etc. etc. etc. As such, I think it enables cars which would normally be not so good to be good performers. But I also think that a dedicated sportscar with a good & balanced suspension setup is just as good and probably even better.
Just my 0.02 of course :smile:
However,
I'm sure part of it is driver style, but I LOVE TCS on the NSX. Seriously.
I kick the back out around corners a lot just having fun, and the TCS will keep it from getting away from me. My only complaint is, IMO, it kicks in too quick. BUT, that said, I just did a 180 the other day when I turned it off!!! I was at a stoplight making a U-Turn. Turned TCS off, gave it a bit too much gas and before I could even comprehend what happened I was facing 200+ degrees the other way. TCS = my new best friend...
I would assume thought, that it only works with power on overstear, not from lift overstear.
I kick the back out around corners a lot just having fun, and the TCS will keep it from getting away from me. My only complaint is, IMO, it kicks in too quick. BUT, that said, I just did a 180 the other day when I turned it off!!! I was at a stoplight making a U-Turn. Turned TCS off, gave it a bit too much gas and before I could even comprehend what happened I was facing 200+ degrees the other way. TCS = my new best friend...
I would assume thought, that it only works with power on overstear, not from lift overstear.
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I have to disagree for two reasons. #1 is that back in the late 1980s when the NSX's TCS was designed, such systems were not clearly defined as trajectory correction systems or Traction control like today's system. Today, most new cars come with traction control systems. All these systems do is monitor the variation between the driving wheels and the non-driving wheels (or between driving wheels in some cases to emulate a LSD) and prevent the driving wheels from spinning. Usually they work from a standpoint or at very low speeds only. These systems are made to prevent spinning wheels on gravel, grass, dirt, snow and icy condition OR when exiting a corner (as a LSD would). #2 reason is because traction control system perform this task by usually cutting the power of the engine (fuel, spark), some even apply the brakes at the driving/spinning wheels in conjuction, but they do nothing about trajectory control or to the wheels that are not driving.
Electronic Stability Control systems like ESP, VCA and others do control the vehicle's trajectory by using input from gyroscopes, accelerometers, wheel sensors and algorithms which as a result control each brake individually in conjunction with the ABS modulation system.
if that'd be correct, then what about TCS that help you launch your car faster by preventing excessive wheelspin ? (new M-series BMW come to mind) ?
I dont. I keep it ON at the tracks I go to. I'm not trying to do the best time possible and I'd rather have it help me correct a mistake I'll do than not. The only time I've ever turned it off was during drag races.
The only system today that combines confortable driving with good cornering capabilities are rheomagnetic shocks (as the ones in the Corvettes with that option). Also, you make it sound as if ESP were like open loop systems. Modern ESPs are not only closed-loop system but an integral part of the car's powertrain. They use computers which communicate with the other computers and safety devices in the modern car (safety belt pre-tensionners, fuel shut-off, even sunroof closing in modern MBs). Some manufacturers (Nissan comes to mind with the 1st gen G35) even rely on it to keep the chassis "balanced" and fight the appearently oversteer tendency of that model. Finally, most modern systems not only are closed-loop but also "learning" systems which constantly adapt to the driver's driving "style".
I've got this beautiful, high-tech, ultra-accurate gun that I've never learned to use, in fact I'm not sure which end is which. Every time I play with the damn thing I get hurt. :wink:
to 710: "Only at very slow speed sharp turns." what do you think AutoX is? I agree highspeed road race courses NSX is one of the better turn in feels ive ever felt. My BMW M coupe felt better tho. Auto X is all i was talking about with plowing.
Mid-engine cars does this snap oversteering when pushed hard in corners, my girlfriend just totaled her MR2 Spyder few months back while taking a 45mph sweeper and suddenly the rear end came out before she could react to correct it.
I've spun my NSX couple times on track while pushing the car very hard in turns, and all of them are mid-speed long sweepers. However, on tight turns, NSX just push most of the time.
The only way to learn how to save a snap oversteer, I guess, is by practicing it. Take me as an example, I would intentionally go to a big parking lot when its raining, and then try to kick the rear end out at about 40-45mph, then try to drift through it. Its hard on NSX, but fun at the same time. Attempt this activity when there are no cars, no people around, and of course, watch out for cops !!! ^_^
I've spun my NSX couple times on track while pushing the car very hard in turns, and all of them are mid-speed long sweepers. However, on tight turns, NSX just push most of the time.
The only way to learn how to save a snap oversteer, I guess, is by practicing it. Take me as an example, I would intentionally go to a big parking lot when its raining, and then try to kick the rear end out at about 40-45mph, then try to drift through it. Its hard on NSX, but fun at the same time. Attempt this activity when there are no cars, no people around, and of course, watch out for cops !!! ^_^
I'll second the limited benefit of TCS at the track. The NSX's TCS hails from an earlier generation and is therefore unavoidably primitive. Intermediate level drivers and beyond almost universally eschew it.
And it's not just about setting record lap times. The NSX, like any mid-engine car, rewards a smooth and deliberate style, yet within this the TCS on the NSX will intrude at fairly modest speeds. It spoils the driving experience IMHO.
It's noteworthy that Honda chunked it altogether on the more performance oriented models such as the NSX-R and NSX S-Zero.
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NSX Status, what I think is you made kind of a bad call and paid the price.:redface: Hopefully it was a learning experience, and a good thing you're ok. Neighborhoods are the last place for speed at anytime. Enough said there.
Regardless of the Andretti, Ivan stewart commercial.:wink:
As for myself.....Thankfully I haven't wrecked my car, but the very first time I caused the rear end to swing out it was because I was dicking around. But I made sure I was the only car around for miles before I did it.
The tires never made any squeeling or sliding noise until they caught grip (don't make the mistake of thinking you'll always hear them brake free) and only then did they give a quick "chirp". I think spinning your car at higher speeds and wrecking would largely and nearly be a 99% risk you had better be ready to take if your at the track or street.
On the streets, a spin out to-wreck would prolly be due to a poor decision on your part for driving stupid. (If most of what I've said was covered, sorry for not reading all 3 pages of this thread.:tongue: )
And driving skill can almost always be improved upon. I haven't met a driver yet who has proved otherwise.
Regardless of the Andretti, Ivan stewart commercial.:wink:
As for myself.....Thankfully I haven't wrecked my car, but the very first time I caused the rear end to swing out it was because I was dicking around. But I made sure I was the only car around for miles before I did it.
The tires never made any squeeling or sliding noise until they caught grip (don't make the mistake of thinking you'll always hear them brake free) and only then did they give a quick "chirp". I think spinning your car at higher speeds and wrecking would largely and nearly be a 99% risk you had better be ready to take if your at the track or street.
On the streets, a spin out to-wreck would prolly be due to a poor decision on your part for driving stupid. (If most of what I've said was covered, sorry for not reading all 3 pages of this thread.:tongue: )
And driving skill can almost always be improved upon. I haven't met a driver yet who has proved otherwise.
OK, I haven't bought my first NSX yet, but am getting pretty close.
Given my style of street driving, and my lack of track experience, the snap oversteer is what I'm worried about.
I've driven Integra GS-R's, with heavily modified suspensions for performance, for about 8 years and a quarter million miles. With this car, almost nothing gets it out of shape. It's cornering limits are extremely high, but it never does anything but understeer. So, it's obviously been very safe for me on the street.
I worry about my safety in an NSX!:wink:
So...what I'm gathering from this thread, to increase my safety margin from snap oversteer on the street, I should decrease toe in the rear (this will make me be able to "feel" the limits and oversteer coming on easier) and perhaps increase tire width in the rear relative to the front, to increase grip in the rear relative to the front (given that I would not increase my aggressiveness on the street, just because I have more rear end grip).
Am I correct in this?
Given my style of street driving, and my lack of track experience, the snap oversteer is what I'm worried about.
I've driven Integra GS-R's, with heavily modified suspensions for performance, for about 8 years and a quarter million miles. With this car, almost nothing gets it out of shape. It's cornering limits are extremely high, but it never does anything but understeer. So, it's obviously been very safe for me on the street.
I worry about my safety in an NSX!:wink:
So...what I'm gathering from this thread, to increase my safety margin from snap oversteer on the street, I should decrease toe in the rear (this will make me be able to "feel" the limits and oversteer coming on easier) and perhaps increase tire width in the rear relative to the front, to increase grip in the rear relative to the front (given that I would not increase my aggressiveness on the street, just because I have more rear end grip).
Am I correct in this?
I wouldn't. I would stick with the stock alignment and the stock tire sizes (or the typical tire sizes if you get bigger wheels). Keep the "stagger" (difference in treadwidth front vs rear) to no more than 50 mm, and preferably 40 mm or less.
