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How many owners have crashed their NSX by sliding the rear end out???

thank you for understanding my post and not taking it as a personal hit i was a bit out of line. Gearing is another awesome point against Auto X. Uve got to love the fact 2nd does 85mph when your on a tight road race track tho :biggrin:

Yeah, the NSX isn't great for AutoX, but it doesn't mean it still isn't fun or a great place to learn how to handle the car. This is where I first experienced that "snap" effect. I've never had it happen to me on the street and I'm happy I experienced it in a "controlled" environment. One of the biggest problems with the NSX and AutoX is that you have to race against Z06's...which is much harder than this "civic" you mentioned. :)
 
WOW, and I just thought it was me.:redface: In Nov 06' (three weeks after I got my 05") I took it to Vegas for the first time.:cool: When I exited the freeway to go to Mandalay Bay, I was rounding the curve at the South end of Las Vegas Blvd. There was med/light traffic, dry conditions, and I wasn't even really pushing the car (doing about 10 over the limit). About half way through the curve the rear end just shot out from underneath me. I have alot of track experience (not in the X though) so I immediately recognized it and counter steered. I ended up sliding sideways/backwards between two cars in two separate lanes before I could even start to correct it though, and before I knew it I was headed straight for a curb.:eek: Luckily with a quick tap of the brakes and a slight steer I was able to jump back into a lane (two lanes over) without hitting anything/anyone. Scared the bajeezus out of me since I had just bought the car three weeks prior and it only had 3700 miles on it. I thought maybe I had just hit a wet/oil spot in the road, but maybe not. I have alot of experience with oversteer (been doing it on purpose alot of times just for fun since I was about 15), and I attributed the outcome to my great driving skills. But now knowing the severity of this problem and not having any experience drivng an X (or any mid-engine sports car for that reason) I now see that maybe alot of it was luck. I may be throwing the stock wheels back on for a day and taking her to the track... :wink:
 
WOW, and I just thought it was me.:redface: In Nov 06' (three weeks after I got my 05") I took it to Vegas for the first time.:cool: When I exited the freeway to go to Mandalay Bay, I was rounding the curve at the South end of Las Vegas Blvd. There was med/light traffic, dry conditions, and I wasn't even really pushing the car (doing about 10 over the limit). About half way through the curve the rear end just shot out from underneath me. I have alot of track experience (not in the X though) so I immediately recognized it and counter steered. I ended up sliding sideways/backwards between two cars in two separate lanes before I could even start to correct it though, and before I knew it I was headed straight for a curb.:eek: Luckily with a quick tap of the brakes and a slight steer I was able to jump back into a lane (two lanes over) without hitting anything/anyone. Scared the bajeezus out of me since I had just bought the car three weeks prior and it only had 3700 miles on it. I thought maybe I had just hit a wet/oil spot in the road, but maybe not. I have alot of experience with oversteer (been doing it on purpose alot of times just for fun since I was about 15), and I attributed the outcome to my great driving skills. But now knowing the severity of this problem and not having any experience drivng an X (or any mid-engine sports car for that reason) I now see that maybe alot of it was luck. I may be throwing the stock wheels back on for a day and taking her to the track... :wink:

Yeah those sweet looking rims may not be helping you when it comes to predictability... and what were you doing behind the wheel of a car at 15 you juvenile delinquent?! Is that where you were instead of in class?
 
I bought my first car for $500 at the age of 13!!! A SWEEEEET 72' VW Squareback with a 2180cc engine. :biggrin:
 
I happen to love oversteer, both power-on and lift varieties. Are you guys telling me that I won't any more when I get an NSX?
 
I happen to love oversteer, both power-on and lift varieties. Are you guys telling me that I won't any more when I get an NSX?

No, just that you have to be more careful given the MR rear-weight bias.
 
I must be one of the old guard...as I have sweet bling blongs but prefer to see how fast the car will go in a straight line rather than figuring out the hard way how the car preforms in a corner. I actually have always seen the notion of racing into a corner as being dangerous...but thats because I live in a city where the climate changes on an hourly basis...thus, a quick rain shower can freeze into a hidden nightmare...if you know what I mean! I prefer to accelerate out of the corner...thus limiting the chance of putting my machine into the wall or embankment.

I am out...god's speed all

Dam
 
This is a Sympton of a Mid Engine Car.

And Stated by the Drift King that Mid Engine Cars are the hardest to drive.

All the Weight is in the rear. Plus if you added more throttle than you counter stearing, then you will spin out, fish tail, etc.

My bro has a MR2 Turbo and he spun out and totaled his body and frame (Good thing he was alright). As this happens to a lot of MR2's

You can change/modify the rear suspension or grippier tire setup to help ease this symptom, but ultimately and unfortunately its do to driver error. So you can't really compare a mid engine car to a FR car like the G35. Also some open area driving courses will help to find the limits of your driving and you car.

I hope everything works out well and I'm glad you guys are ok.

Take care.
I agree, all us with front engine, rear-wheel drive (and you with front engine, front wheel drive) experience have to learn how to drive a mid-engine, rear wheel drive.
 
I think we're looking at simple physics here. The NSX's F/R weight distribution of 42/58 (I think that's it?) is going to lead to over-steer (even snap over-steer) whenever driven past the maximun the tires and suspension can handle in whatever driving conditions you're in. Compare this to a 50/50 weight distribution car, which will not come around with the same inertia under the same conditions.

I have done track events in both type cars that I referenced above, and the NSX, while a great handling car, is far less forgiving than more weight balanced cars (this would obviously not include most Porsches!!). The NSX requires expereince, technique, and fast hands to be driven at the "limit".

-Wick
 
A wise man once said the NSX is easy to drive fast but difficult to drive very fast. True dat.
 
I agree, all us with front engine, rear-wheel drive (and you with front engine, front wheel drive) experience have to learn how to drive a mid-engine, rear wheel drive.

I am happy to see that someone pointed out this distinction. The weight of an NSX is **NOT** in the back. It is **NOT** a rear engine car. A Porsche is a rear engine car. The weight is in the middle. The NSX may be the hardest car to *drift*, but not to drive. And, since I'm on a soapbox now (ha ha), I also do not agree with the Autocross being the best place to learn how to drive the NSX (or any car). Standing around for hours to get a chance to drive my car for, literally, 30 seconds is not my idea of an efficient learning experience. Neither is the race track, in my opinion. You cannot learn the limits of the car without overstepping them. And when you do this at the track, you get kicked off the track. An airstrip or an empty mall parking lot is where you learn to drive the car. You set up imaginary boundaries for yourself, then keep pushing until you spin out or lose control.
And while we are on the subject of getting a "feel" for the car, this is where racing harnesses come in really handy. Once you are absolutely locked into the seat and cannot be thrown around, you really do learn the feel of the car much better. This is why, in my opinion, that racing harnesses are the best first mod.
 
I used to drive a modified twin turbo Supra. It was a heavy, front-engined car with MASSIVE rear tires and good weight distribution. These things, combined with a somewhat laggy turbocharged setup, made for a very very predictable car when driven at the limits. It was the kind of car that you could turn a corner, stomp the throttle, and LET GO of the steering wheel and it would just correct itself as you came out of drift and accelerated to the top of the gear. I'm not even kidding. I used to do all sorts of stupid shit in it, because it was the most stable and grippy car I have ever driven. The downside to all of this is it isn't very nimble, and kind of insulates you from the road.

Quite frankly, my NSX scares the shit out of me when I push it "hard". I drive pretty conservatively now. If I push it too hard on the street I can literally feel my NSX wanting to break free. Which is good, because I know where the limits are. They are very well defined on the NSX if you don't modify the subframe and its associated connectors.
 
I've had my car start to break loose and have the rear start to come around about 2-3 times over the years. Each was a different circumstance/road condition but each time I was going quick, hard and was in the corner.

Each time I grit my teeth, punched the throttle harder, kept the wheels pointed where I wanted to go and it pulled right out. I think if I had lifted, braked and/or tried to compensate with my steering and not hit it hard it would of spun out like a top. I think not trying to overcompensate with the steering wheel and giving the throttle all I could get seemed to work out.

I'm no race car driver or track rat. I'm just an old doof poser. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to drive, I figured I just got Lucky.
 
well.... i try all the time to spun... but all i seem to achieve is drift....i'll keep trying...:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

and believe me, it will be a pleasure to do so.....:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
 
A friend of mine did on a wet road. Told him to get new rear tires two weeks before the car spun, hit a new car on the opposite lane and then landed his car in the ditch bending the new Taitec GTLW exhaust and rolling the rear fenders in. From then I swear I will never go cheap on tires and always go for the best ones especially in the rain. Go Goodyear.
 
I only had my 95 for a little over a month when I experienced my rear end slide out at the end of a 360 degree freeway on ramp in Pasadena. I believe I was in 2rd gear, but could not recall my speed. Like others have said, there was no warning. I was lucky in that I was at the end of the turn, and apparently even luckier because my reaction was to let up on the throttle, but fortunately the car quickly came back in line when I did. At first I though I hit a patch of water, but I could not confirm this since it was dark. Later, I realized that my rear tires had minimal tread, much less than when I bought the car. A few weeks later I mentioned my experience to some Primers at the SoCal monthly meet at South Coast Acura. The guys told me what I experienced was oversteer common to mid-engine cars. Now I believe it was a combination of low tread, mid-engine oversteer, and driver inexperience with rear drive cars. Since that time, I’ve replaced my rear tires, installed Bilstein shocks and had my suspension checked and aligned and the car slightly lowered. The car feels a lot more stable when cornering, but after my experience, I’m still a little afraid to push the car. I definitely need some professional training.
 
Fully agreed.
I am happy to see that someone pointed out this distinction. The weight of an NSX is **NOT** in the back. It is **NOT** a rear engine car. A Porsche is a rear engine car. The weight is in the middle. The NSX may be the hardest car to *drift*, but not to drive. And, since I'm on a soapbox now (ha ha), I also do not agree with the Autocross being the best place to learn how to drive the NSX (or any car). Standing around for hours to get a chance to drive my car for, literally, 30 seconds is not my idea of an efficient learning experience. Neither is the race track, in my opinion. You cannot learn the limits of the car without overstepping them. And when you do this at the track, you get kicked off the track. An airstrip or an empty mall parking lot is where you learn to drive the car. You set up imaginary boundaries for yourself, then keep pushing until you spin out or lose control.
And while we are on the subject of getting a "feel" for the car, this is where racing harnesses come in really handy. Once you are absolutely locked into the seat and cannot be thrown around, you really do learn the feel of the car much better. This is why, in my opinion, that racing harnesses are the best first mod.
 
An airstrip or an empty mall parking lot is where you learn to drive the car. You set up imaginary boundaries for yourself, then keep pushing until you spin out or lose control.

100% agreed...but it seems to be getting harder to find such. I got to do a 2-day HPDE on the old Stapleton (Denver airport before DIA) runways. Spinning off the track = spinning between a couple cones and onto more concrete. Man that was a lot of concrete. I should have pushed it more and taken advantage of the situation (I should have been pushing enough there to spin).

They were smart enough to start things off the first day with exercises to help you get a feel for the car (skidpad, slalom, last-minute braking from 80, collision avoidance...which is really the last-minute braking thing combined with having to put your car into one of three places based on a signal at the last moment). I would love to find enough concrete (and permission to use it) for similar drills at even higher speeds.

And while we are on the subject of getting a "feel" for the car, this is where racing harnesses come in really handy. Once you are absolutely locked into the seat and cannot be thrown around, you really do learn the feel of the car much better. This is why, in my opinion, that racing harnesses are the best first mod.

They also prevent you from going home after a track day with bruised knees (bruised from pressing against console and door to hold yourself into the seat) and other side-effects of being thrown around (distraction, fatigue, etc).
 
OK, this is the long version, but for those who want to know a bit more, read thourghly!

Toe, camber, grip, car control, and some of their relationships.....DISCLAIMER......suspension, tires, tire pressures, etc. etc.(the list is very long), can all effect the NSX's personality, but some things do the same thing everytime....lets look as those.

Toe. This gets fun! We (the hard core track junkies and instructors) argued the hell outta this one in the late 90's and we eventually agreed to disagree. Some say you need tow, becasue it stabilises the rear end....I say, some of that is true. Lets take it in two parts, front and rear....Here comes the mini toe siminar.....

What does toe do for us? It pre-loads the suspension components by trying to drive the wheels in slightly none parallel lines. The rear tires are tying to come into each other, thus loading positively, the front tires are trying to drive away from each other.....think of a giant pair of hands pulling the tires apart, thus stretching all the suspension components in the front, and the rear tire towards each other, thus compressing the suspension components in the rear.

Toe in, in the rear, plants the rear creating a stable preloaded suspension, thus raises the grip limit for conering due to the lack of slack BUT it also sets the snap release point high, but when you find it...by by baby, your end to end.....reducing the toe in allows the rear to lossen at a lower grip limit (under conrnering, especially on turn in), thus allowing one to get a telegraph message that hey, the rear end is loosening, thus giving one time to respond, or even use this as and advantage in getting the car really balanced, and easy to do whatever the driver wants it to do.....4 wheel drift, oversteer, understeer...you choose, depending on the corner. Ohhh, it also saves loads of money on tire wear!

PS (non compliance rear toe linkage helps her as well, as mentioned already in a previous post) but it is not even on ones radar until you are a serious track junkie with loads of tuning hours in the car. Basically, theirs lots to do before getting to that!

Front in Toe Out gives the car crisp turn in off a stright line, and extremely fast reponse...one thing the NSX got famous for.

So, do we need toe??? I say, maybe not so much as factory specification says, at least, not in the rear, but this is a progressive reduction...not a step change....take it out slowly learning the cars different personalities along the way. Then you decide which one you like best. I like some tow out in the front, as it keeps the car crisp....but I have back off some from the factory specification, which was designed to be very conservative, and safe for less experienced drivers.

Of course, all these things are easier to feel in a controlled track enviroment wher eone can play at the limit, but can also be felt on the street by one with experience.

BTW, there was a comment about the NSX being ass end heavy...NOT TRUE...once my car was set up properly (after many many hours of track tuning), it was as balanced, and fully controlled as any car I have ever driven! Perfectly balanced was the term used by many other NON-NSX owner instructors who borrowed the keys for a session or two.

I turned faster lap times in zero toe in the rear cars, with much more comfortable laps, in which the car can be contolled at all levels, not just driven fast always leary of the max grip snap limit. Well, the passengers never thought of them as comfortable, but I did!

I hope this helps get you started.
 
Ohhh, one more thing...sorry....but I assume many of you have heard of the term "Drop Throttle Oversteer"? It is when the sensation of the rear coming loose, causes the driver to lift of the trottle (natural response), thus shifting the cars weight off the rear tires and towards the front, thus recducing the total loadings being applied to the rear tires, and the rest is physics..actually the previous part was also. :)

THE HARDEST THING EVER TO TEACH A STUDENT IS NOT TO LIFT WHEN THE REAR END GETS LOOSE, but rather to trottle in slightly, while correcting with the steering.

This is one of those things that once one gets it right the first time, feels the result, and realises.....wow, that worked well, then it is a lesson learned...but most spin a few dozen times becasue they drop the trottle before ever getting it right...even with me yelling, trottle trottle trottle, don't lift!

Do a drivers school on a rainy day to learn this first hand at lower speed.
 
I've spun out twice in my car. First time happened while I was in Arkansas. Little rain, TCS off, and fast driving through a curve sent me spinning and ended up in the median/grass. Lucky for me it was early in the AM. Ended probably 20 ft from a tree (small ones).

Second time was back here in CA recently. Was actually "drifting" the car. Came around a real tight corner, with water covering it from the sprinklers, and spun out. Tried to countersteer but it was no help. Car was perpendicular to the sidewalk by the time I had traction again, and ended with the car completely up on the curb/sidewalk. Fortunately, there was no frame or suspension damage. Just a bent lip on one wheel and a popped rear tire. I was relieved when I was told at the tire shop that there was no bent rods/suspension components. Had the tire replaced, car realigned, and running like a champ in no time.

I'm more careful now not to turn off TCS.
 
Toe. This gets fun! We (the hard core track junkies and instructors) argued the hell outta this one in the late 90's and we eventually agreed to disagree. Some say you need tow, becasue it stabilises the rear end...

[snip]

Toe in, in the rear, plants the rear creating a stable preloaded suspension, thus raises the grip limit for conering due to the lack of slack BUT it also sets the snap release point high, but when you find it...by by baby, your end to end.....reducing the toe in [snip] giv(es) one time to respond, or even use this as and advantage in getting the car really balanced

Interesting. Last year I had decided to reduce the tow-in on my '91 to 93+ specs, but after doing a lot of reading I reversed my decision and didn't have it done because (as best I could conclude) I ended up with the impression that the toe-in would help with rear-end conrol (especially in the case where the driver doesn't do exactly as they should at the limit but panics) and (in a very small way) help avoid snap oversteer (where you say it does the opposite). I suppose this all is what people argued the hell out of and agreed to disagree on.

Also, There is an interesting mode of traction loss in the NSX that sounds common ... in that it's resulted in many damaged NSXs. That is where the NSX spins out in situations where one is cornering within the traction limits (they can make the turn at that speed) but oversteer is induced by throttle, wet spot, etc. Instead of spinning outside the radius of the circle (as one would expect if one were taking a corner faster than the car was capable) the changed angle of the car (combined with not compensating correctly) causes the car to essentially turn more and drift to the inside of the corner.

I've see this continue where the car continues to spin (usually slowly) in the same direction while heading towards inside of circle. I've also seen it where compensation from the initial oversteer is flawed in some way so that when the car regains traction it is headed even more rapidly toward the inside of the turn, which most of the time seems to result in one trying to turn the car back toward the outside of the turn or direction if intended travel (spinning the car the other direction such that it is still going toward the inside of the turn, but doing so backwards). Both of these possibilities scare me just as much (if not more) than snap oversteer.
 
A lot of things can contribute to losing traction and the back end spinning out. Most of them have already been mentioned here.

Weight Distribution - It's not just that it's in the rear, but also that it's in the middle. It's the whole "polar moment of inertia" thing, in which an object with the weight in the middle is easier to start spinning than one with the weight at one or more ends. I like to say, "The good thing about mid-engine cars is, they like to turn. The bad thing about mid-engine cars is, they like to turn." ;)

Tires - It's mentioned a few times here, but it's worth pointing out again. Tires are often a huge factor when losing traction. Inexpensive tires that aren't so sticky, R compound tires that stick great on the track after a warmup lap but don't stick on the street where they never get hot (and don't give warning before breaking loose), extreme performance street tires (or track tires) which stick great on dry pavement but suck in rain or if they hit a wet patch, worn tires with shallow tread depth that do the same, cold ambient temperatures that reduce tire traction, improper inflation pressures, etc - all can make the driver think he can take a turn faster than he actually can, and outdrive his tires' limits. Oh, and even though the tires are the source of these problems, when you come down to it, they're really a matter of driver error, because the driver is not taking these factors into account and is overestimating his tires' ability to take a turn.

Driver Error - The biggest problem with the rear end sliding out is this: throttle lift. Whenever losing traction, the natural tendency of most drivers is to immediately lift off the accelerator (or, worse, to slam on the brakes). This transfers the weight of the car, and the traction, from the rear of the car to the front, which increases oversteer and reduces the ability of the rear to grip. (This also explains how pbassjo was able to pull out of it by giving it more gas, not less, when he lost traction; luck had little to do with it.)

Taking a customer for a ride and counseling him about the dangers of a 500 hp nsx and at that moment took a corner too quick hit a little water i didnt see, spun 100 degrees, over a curb,down an embankment,between two trees and into a girls soccer field. The best part was the customer asking me" did you mean to do that?". I responded ...ah no. I ripped the lip off and ruined all four of my ao48s.
You have multiple problems when using R compound track tires like the A048 on the street: one, they don't fully warm up so they can't grip that well to begin with, two, like most track tires, their big tread blocks and shallow tread depth make them treacherous on wet pavement, and three, they give virtually no warning before losing traction.
 
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