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HSC=Next NSX?

re

Maybe the headline should read: "Honda reveals another facelifted NSX gimmick!"
Because they can call that concept what they want, but it's just a reskined NSX, and that's a shame.

I used to admire Honda for being ingeniously redundant; the parts bin cars, the interchangability of parts and the performance for the dollar and the general accessibilty of their product line to the average enthusiast, but with a little retrospect, some insight and a little maturity. I've come to realize that Honda's "ingenious redundancy" isn't really ingenious, it's just greedy.

They don't like to risk development costs, they don't like to risk failure and, most importantly, they refuse to risk losing money.

Every car they assemble now, is a flacid resking of a '73 civic -- nothings really changed, has it?

Before you lambast me with the tennents of the modern, corporate, manufacture ethos. I do understand that every manufacture is now, in one way or another, uses both vertical and parallel integration acorss it's manufacturing methods to cut costs, but Honda's apparent lack of spirit is insulting, and, ultimatly, the reason why their cars, are no longer revered, and unfotunatly why they'll never garner the allure that I once felt they deserved.

I loved the NSX, and still do, but I loved it because it was a risk, because it CHALLANGED the world, and won. Honda built the NSX to become a benchmark, and it did. I love the s2000 becuase it's purporse built, well enginereed, has strikingly good build quality, and offered a lot of novelty and nuance, but even it's edge has been dulled.

And, finally, this "HSC" is as close to being worth anything close to "supercar" as I am worthy of the title "superhuman." It's a bag of bones, wearing a neauvou tailored skin, and it'll be the most egregous stylistic , and mechanical flop, since the aztek.

Honda's simply borrowing elements of cars that have, and are, pushing the egde; the enzo, the 360 and the gallardo and murci, but it's accomplished nothing, other than "fashioning" their product, but creating nothing. It's look, and feel from the pictures, is that of a cheap and gawdy imitation; and come off like wearing a fuschia three piece velvet suit to a black tie affair. It's cheap, and it smacks of it. Loudly.

If honda want to play the supercar game, they need a car with a flat crank V10, offer both manual and F1 trannies, and cater to the enthusiast that wants the newest, most advanced and fatsest car for his/her dollar, but Honda's also got to beat the competition with pragmatisim and reliability -- like they did with the NSX in the early '90's.

Honda once was a pioneering effort, built upon the ethos of competition, ingenuity and evolution, but the legacy they are poised to leave is one of a dilluted spirit, and a passing apparition of a conglomerate corporate phantom.

Sochichiro Honda once said (parapharsed) "... competition improves the breed..." I wonder what he'd say today?
 
I really don't understand how a car looks a bit similiar to an existing car can be used against it. When the first NSX came out it had headlights similiar to the testarossa, was it criticized for being not original? It's almost as if saying that a car copys another because it has headlights and four wheels... Form follows function, that's why many fish have similiar shape... And I think that's why cars have a certain set of design limitations if one wants to be effective.
 
re

My comments pertaining to the styling were to implore the evolution of the car, as a fundamental concept -- not a mimmick.

Everyone takes certain ques from given aesthetic, and functional, fundamental shapes, but it's the evolution of that shape that creates something novel.

My implict comments were making mention of the lack of evolution, novelty (the design ques and shapes seem -- to my eye -- simply "tacked on"), and the subsequent failure in creating a new benchmark stylistically -- the car is already failure mechanically (IMO) becuase honda seems steadfast in reusing the V6 powerplant.
 
Re: HSC

HPV100 said:

HSC specs:
3.5L NA 380hp/350lbs tq
Curb weight 2800lbs
0- 62mph. 4.0 sec
1/4 mile 11.9 @ 120mph
6-speed squential paddle shifter
This is my opinion.

Go HONDA.

I am guessing that Honda will be able to get 400 horses out of the 3.5L. Considering the S2000's 120 hp per liter, that means 420 hp for 3.5L. Of course, due to inefficiencies and such, Honda may not be able to maintain the same 120 hp per liter when the engine is larger, so that's why I'm guessing a drop down to 400 hp.

Torque will probably be much lower in my opinion. Honda's engines are always about making lots of hp, but at very high rpms. Considering the current 3.2L makes only 224 ft-lbs, I'd guess that the 3.5L won't be far away from that figure. Maybe 250 ft-lbs, but I'd say definitely less than 300 ft-lbs.

Just my guesses. :)

-CiaoBoy
 
"Every car they assemble now, is a flacid resking of a '73 civic -- nothings really changed, has it?"

And what if it exceeds all expectations and outperforms the NSX in every respect? What if it doesn't have the prestige associated by having equal or more cylinders than the competition?

All we've seen are some concept photos and already we're bashing it as an unworthy replacement to the NSX?

Or is it once a Civic, always a Civic?

If this is indeed the NSX replacement and doesn't dominate the cars above its price range in everything but styling, I'll eat crow if you will. ;)

Sunny
 
Re: Re: Re: DEPOSIT

nkb said:
Well, if you consider that when the NSX first came out, some were going for $100K with the markup, then you may be saving a substantial chunk of cash by putting a deposit down now. I guess it all depends on the size of the deposit.

That could even be an investment, where you can turn around and sell it when it gets delivered, and you get to pocket the markup, instead of the dealer.
1,000.00 Deposit beats a C D. Deposit is small compared to the value potental of a first off the line possible sale to another dealer or individual.
 
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"the car is already failure mechanically (IMO) becuase honda seems steadfast in reusing the V6 powerplant."

Hell, I suppose that 540bhp/475lbs torque and 200lbs torque at idle for a 3.5L V6 twin turbo 90 degree, uneven firing - 90 and 150 is a mechanical failure. Or, wait, sorry thats the XJ220 engine. The XJ220S turns out 675bhp/525lbs torque, another disappointment.

They are not mechanical failures, are they? That was 10-12 years ago, lets see if Honda can make that reliable and how much untapped potential Honda builds in and how much space the design allows for aftermarket improvements before we go that far, shall we? :)

Sunny
 
re

Hell, I suppose that 540bhp/475lbs torque and 200lbs torque at idle for a 3.5L V6 twin turbo 90 degree, uneven firing - 90 and 150 is a mechanical failure. Or, wait, sorry thats the XJ220 engine.

It was, in the sense that it replaced the v12 that never materialized b/c Jag ran out of money in developing the xj220.

My civic comment was a critique of Honda's current "market philosohpy," how it ultimatly shortchanges the enthusiast and undermines what honda has accomplished in the past; i.e., NSX, S2000 , ITR, etc. I wasn't attempting to harp on this, alleged, new cars lineage -- or lack thereof.

I think you should re-read my post, as I think you've missed my sentiment, entirely.
 
Bad photochopped red

Well here is my testimonial to lack of computer art skills:D
 

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bad photochopped yellow

Could only get a gold like yellow
 

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Re: re

bb6 said:
It was, in the sense that it replaced the v12 that never materialized b/c Jag ran out of money in developing the xj220.

My civic comment was a critique of Honda's current "market philosohpy,"

I think you should re-read my post, as I think you've missed my sentiment, entirely.

No, I think I got your sentiments just fine ;) I happen to agree, but not from a mechanical standpoint.

If they want to stay in the supercar ring, they need to develop one from the ground up with the same fanaticism to be the best that made the NSX.

The V6 is more economical (good for Honda, potential Honda owners) and can produce more than respectible numbers. The displacement war doesn't win everything. Jag did run out of money but produced a lighter, more balanced, more economical supercar. Honda can do the same again.

Sunny
 
bad photochopped blue

Kinda funky
 

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bad photochopped black

almost charcoal
 

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last one I promise

Nice chrome green scheme
 

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Simple facelift... NOT!

The Corvette has history behind it. As to date, each generation has come to being coined "C#" (i.e. C4, C5, C6...). It is a great car with great tradition. That is why each generation of Corvette LOOKS like a Corvette. The designers specifically design to that requirement. And no one says that the changes are "tacked on". In fact, admirers comment that the "spirit" of the car is maintained. This is one reason why, after spending loads of development dollars on a mid-engine Corvette, it has remained front-engine, rear-drive.

As tradition requires that the Corvette look like a Corvette, this new generation NSX LOOKS like an NSX... just as it should. To expect it to look totally different would be NOT in keeping with the "spirit" of the NSX. But don't mistake it, there is no simple facelift here... you won't win that argument. This car has been "redesigned".

I would like to introduce the idea that we call this new car X2.

Oh yes, and I loved it the instant I saw it. :cool:
 
I like it a lot.

When I first saw it I thought 'Baby Enzo' which is a good thing in my book. I really like the side view. I love the "humps" over the rear wheels.

My only complaint is the headlight area looks a little bulky to me and I'll be disappointed if it doesn't have that sexy long red light across the back :) Not a big fan of those circular lights.
 
Re: Simple facelift... NOT!

nsx1 said:
The Corvette has history behind it. As to date, each generation has come to being coined "C#" (i.e. C4, C5, C6...). It is a great car with great tradition. That is why each generation of Corvette LOOKS like a Corvette. The designers specifically design to that requirement. And no one says that the changes are "tacked on". In fact, admirers comment that the "spirit" of the car is maintained. This is one reason why, after spending loads of development dollars on a mid-engine Corvette, it has remained front-engine, rear-drive.

As tradition requires that the Corvette look like a Corvette, this new generation NSX LOOKS like an NSX... just as it should. To expect it to look totally different would be NOT in keeping with the "spirit" of the NSX. But don't mistake it, there is no simple facelift here... you won't win that argument. This car has been "redesigned".

I would like to introduce the idea that we call this new car X2.

Oh yes, and I loved it the instant I saw it. :cool:
I SECOND THAT!!!
 
Re: re

bb6 said:
the car is already failure mechanically (IMO) because honda seems steadfast in reusing the V6 powerplant.

I don't agree bb6 because I am sure that this new car will be a Murciélago beater. Why?

Simply because this is going to be a 3 kg/hp power to weight ratio car.

Cylinder number as nothing to do with this...

IMO this car will be amazing dynamically speaking.

We are talking very likely about a less than 1265 kg @ 380 hp package.

Do the math and see: about 3,2 kg/hp .

Murciélago: 1650 kg / 580 hp = 2,84 kg/hp
360 Modena: 1290 kg / 395 hp = 3,27 kg/hp
Crevette:D Z06: 1415 kg / 405 hp = 3,49 kg/hp
 
CiaoBoy,
I was being concervative in the 380hp figure, in my heart I am really hoping for >400hp. I also would like it to have more torque but I agree with you more likely it would have <300 and redline could be around 9000rpm.

Paul
 
Re: re

bb6 said:
If honda want to play the supercar game, they need a car with a flat crank V10, offer both manual and F1 trannies, and cater to the enthusiast that wants the newest, most advanced and fatsest car for his/her dollar, but Honda's also got to beat the competition with pragmatisim and reliability -- like they did with the NSX in the early '90's.

Honda's design philosophy has always been "outdo the competition with less" Look at the S2000, an I4 that outperforms its I6 and V6 counterparts for less money.

The TSX is criticized for its lack of a 6 cylinder, yet its performance is on par with every other car in its segment.

If Honda ever made a flat crank V10, it'd be to compete with V12's.

The original NSX's target's have been 348's and F355's.

This time around, its the 360 Modena.

Regardless of the Ferrari, the NSX has always been poised to accomplish the same or more with less.

Less money, and less displacement/cylinders, performance was on par with a 348 and 355.

Like all those who criticize the S2000 for only having a 4 cylinder, results are what truley make a car. An 800 hp supra with no traction is worth just as much a BPU supra... they'll both run 12's in the quarter. I don't care how much horsepower they have, trap speeds are trap speeds, and ET's are ET's.

Its too early to say with this NSX. Honda floored us all before with the previous NSX in relation to its competition. Everyone's been doing the same lately, SRT-4, Evo, STi, E55, SVT Cobra. I have faith that Honda knows the market well enough not to let out something that will disappoint.

As we don't even know the weight yet, and the article quoted in this thread says that the NSX makes extensive use of Carbon Fiber, combined with the fact that its front and rear overhangs have been all but diminished to almost nothing, we have good reason to hope that it will be lighter than its predecessor.

If you want a Flat crank V10, it seems like what you want is more along the lines of GT car. So many people on this board are fans of "adding lightness." For Honda to give that to us straight from the factory would be more than a prayer answered. As you can always add power... but making a car lighter can get very price prohibitive fast.

Gerry Johnson has a 500 hp NSX from a stock 270. But we've managed to lighten the NSX how much? to 2750 lbs from 2950?

My point is that it wouldn't be in the Honda spirit to give us a V10. Look at it this way, if they give us a car that does 0-60 in 4.2 and the 1/4 in 12.0 then we'll be satisfied. If not then yes I agree that your complaints are not unjustified.
 
Or maybe 400+HP na with factory supercharger that puts the output to 550+HP plus advanced eletric motors that makes the car 650+HP while the whole new contructions weight in at around 2000lb and becomes the fastest production car over the Mclaren at the price of the current NSX... :D
 
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