Inevitable Question

[worldsport]

4a.m. in Chicago just got home. Well got a ticket tonight at about 2a.m. on the way home from the casino. First of all (yeah that's what they all say) the ticket was B.S. and I plan to fight it. Looking for advice.

First I'll tell you what happened:

On my way home I was going 50 in a 45. My sister was following me in a Cavalier. A police officer pulled out and followed behind her for about 3 miles. The cavalier was between myself and the officer the entire time. (same lane)

I was no more than 5 mph over the limit on this road (the ticket claims I was speeding on this road- not on the country road where i amy have been speeding :-x )

Regardless, I hit a country road, turned left and hit about "14" mph on the country road. 5 minutes later there were cops everywhere. I obviously got pulled over. When I was in the turn lane, I didn't notice the black and white. 1st car- me 2nd car- sister in cavalier 3rd car black and white.

Here are the problems I have with this ticket:

1) It says on the ticket that I was caught by radar on the road i didn't speed on. five peole willing ot testify that i wasn't speeding on this road. (My radar never went off BTW).

2)The cavalier was between me and the cop the entire time on this road. The cavalier was also going the same speed as me with the cop following it.

3) I asked to see the radar to see my speed and was told it was already cleared?!(Is it true you have the right to see the radar when pulled over?) ( She said it was cleared infront of my passenger)

Not too sure what to do. 100% - I wasn't speeding on the road the ticket was written up on. Where I got pulled over- Iwas going 14 mph in a 50 but the road mentioned in the ticket.. no chance i was speeding. Like I said, I did open it up when i turned to about "14" mph but was never locked in on radar.

The ticket was 70 mph in a 45 and the officer even said "Guess how fast you were going and I'll tell you if you are correct (1st words).

First ticket for me in 5 years, but I can see another this summer so would like to fight this if possible.

Thanks for the advice. Also calling the attorney in the morning.

:-(



[This message has been edited by worldsport (edited 18 June 2000).]

 

[G-man]

Worldsport,
First off, let me tell you how sorry I am for your trouble. While I am not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV, I have gotten my fair share of tickets, and unlike my old man, have managed to shake 95% of them. I have a perfectly clear record and even +5 points to my credit right now, but I have been stopped or issued a ticket about 30 times in the last 5 years. I drive 40,000 miles a year and most of it at 90+ mph, so this should be no surprise to anyone.

At least so far they have not ever caught me at those 140+ mph runs.

I will save the stories of by better victories for another thread if anyone is really interested. But, I would recommend going to Amazon.com and do a search in the books section under "Speeding Ticket". There are some excellent books about how to avoid getting a ticket (too late for that), about how to talk to the officer when you are stopped (you are pretty much out of luck on that one too), but some books focus just on court procedure and technicalities that can get you OFF!

My last ticket was in my BMW 740i doing 50+ in a 25. The radar got me at 41 in a 25. Looks like my reaction times are greater than the cops.

Anyway, I argued a technicality of a mechanical malfunction that I will gladly share with other BMW owners offline, but needless to say the judge was ANGRY that he couldn't throw the book at me. I didn't have to lie, I didn't have to do anything illegal, all I did was use the law to my advantage and I got off.

It sounds like you might be able to get off too. If you were written up for speeding on a road that you were not ever on, then you have a case right there. This is the #1 problem for most tickets. If the info is incorrect and the person following you can testify you were not on that road that night, it is case dismissed.

Hey, you never know. Maybe it was a case of mistaken identity. Anyone else in the group want to take the fall?

Anway, you may or may not have a good case here. Hard to tell from you message here what the real deal is. Needless to say my dad has -57 points on his driving history. Ironically most of them are NOT from the Lamborghini days! They never managed to catch him back then. I on the other hand have been lucky. Except on conviction at 17 for 110+mph in 55 in the SNOW! I have just a few minor ones.

Good luck and e-mail me directly or call me if you want more advice. Good luck brother and God bless.

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
Y2K NSX #51 Yellow/Black

 

[Black R]

Sorry to hear the story.

I too am going to fight my recent ticket:

I was in my '77 chevy cheyenne and got a ticket for 88 in a 70. Now I know there is no way I was going that fast - particularly because the truck is so old, among other things.

G-man, if you have some titles of books to look for, I will gladly go through them at the local library or book store.

Also, the officer refused to show me the laser gun reading.

I wish you the best of luck, worldsport. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[hgunnerz]

Ok I have a question.

I recently got a ticket. I asked the officer how he got me (my radar detector never went off, piece of crap!) and the Officer said radar. I asked to see the radar reading (I couln't even find the radar gun in his car). He refused and said they no longer have to show the radar reading. I asked if I could at least see the calibration information and model of the radar gun. He called me a punk and told me I would have to go to court to get any information from him!.

Pissed me off that I was trying to be nice to the Officer and he was a jerk about it.

I work in traffic control and I have dealt with police radar guns. They do need to be calibrated (usually with a tuning fork).

I paid the ticket anyway because I was speeding (although not as fast as he indicated) and I don't really have time to fight the ticket.

Anyway, don't they have to at least show you how they got your speed?

H gunner
91 NSX Blk/blk

 

[Lud]

1. Officers in most jurisdictions are not required to show you your radar/laser reading. Even if they were, it wouldn't prove YOU were going that fast. They could lock a speed in and write three tickets in a row using that same reading if they wanted to be unethical about it.

3. Minor errors on a ticket (spelled your name wrong, etc.) will not get it dismissed. The wrong road is a fairly major error but having it be the road you just got off instead of a totally unrelated road may make it less serious. I'm sure your attorney can advise you best here. One idea might be that the road he wrote on the ticket was 50 and you were ticketed for 70 in a 45 which automatically knocks the offense down by 5 MPH. Get documentation on the fact that the part of the road he indicated on the ticket is posted at 50 MPH.

4. What is the "14 MPH" stuff? Were you actually going 140 MPH with a cop one car behind you? If you were going that fast I have trouble believing a Cavalier OR cop car kept right on your tail. But it's not clear how fast you were really going from your message.

5. It doesn't matter if the Cavalier was between you as long as he could get line of sight on your car with his radar gun. Whether he really did this or just estimated your speed I don't know. If you were doing 140 and he wrote you for 70 he obviously didn't radar you when you were going top speed. Though I'm not sure why he would lie because it's just as valid for him to say he paced you (and that's actually harder to beat in court than radar).

Anyway, see what your attorney says on the wrong road error. You can ask the judge to dismiss based on that if he thinks there's a reasonable chance but you probably want to have a backup defense if the judge denies the request. Depending on your state laws you may also want to file for discovery on the calibration of the equipment and training of the officer.

 

[G-man]

Originally posted by Lud:
4. What is the "14 MPH" stuff? Were you actually going 140 MPH with a cop one car behind you.

Lud, I think you have my message and worldsport's mixed up. I am the one normally going 140 these days.

Worldsport is a sane, law abiding citizen. I am public enemy #1... and last time I checked, when going 140... there were no Cavaliers behind me.

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
Y2K NSX #51 Yellow/Black

 

[worldsport]

ok wise guys......

When i was going 140, obviously I dusted the cop and the cavalier. I slowed to about 30mph to let my sister (cavalier) catch up and that is when the cop caught up and "made my day".

Sane?... Is temporary insanity a viable defense in traffic court?

 

[newtyp]

Cops SUX.... Sorry to hear about the ticket.
I have had my fair share and fighting this one you should definitely do, however the witness etc.. probably won't even really help.. A laywer can help attaining the info like when the officer was certified, when his equipment was tested ex. a pace or radar but it will cost $$$$. But honestly you should goto court and talk to the officer and the prosecutor and ask for a plea of a no point ticket which here in NJ it would be a obstruction of traffic, a no point summons but a 55~85 dollar fee + court fee's depending on the town. If this route is available go for it, its just $$$ and not points which can affect youe insurance premium. If they will not go with the plea then ask that you seek counsel and plan on finding a lawyer. Best of luck !!!

Originally posted by worldsport:
4a.m. in Chicago just got home. Well got a ticket tonight at about 2a.m. on the way home from the casino. First of all (yeah that's what they all say) the ticket was B.S. and I plan to fight it. Looking for advice.

First I'll tell you what happened:

On my way home I was going 50 in a 45. My sister was following me in a Cavalier. A police officer pulled out and followed behind her for about 3 miles. The cavalier was between myself and the officer the entire time. (same lane)

I was no more than 5 mph over the limit on this road (the ticket claims I was speeding on this road- not on the country road where i amy have been speeding :-x )

Regardless, I hit a country road, turned left and hit about "14" mph on the country road. 5 minutes later there were cops everywhere. I obviously got pulled over. When I was in the turn lane, I didn't notice the black and white. 1st car- me 2nd car- sister in cavalier 3rd car black and white.

Here are the problems I have with this ticket:

1) It says on the ticket that I was caught by radar on the road i didn't speed on. five peole willing ot testify that i wasn't speeding on this road. (My radar never went off BTW).

2)The cavalier was between me and the cop the entire time on this road. The cavalier was also going the same speed as me with the cop following it.

3) I asked to see the radar to see my speed and was told it was already cleared?!(Is it true you have the right to see the radar when pulled over?) ( She said it was cleared infront of my passenger)

Not too sure what to do. 100% - I wasn't speeding on the road the ticket was written up on. Where I got pulled over- Iwas going 14 mph in a 50 but the road mentioned in the ticket.. no chance i was speeding. Like I said, I did open it up when i turned to about "14" mph but was never locked in on radar.

The ticket was 70 mph in a 45 and the officer even said "Guess how fast you were going and I'll tell you if you are correct (1st words).

First ticket for me in 5 years, but I can see another this summer so would like to fight this if possible.

Thanks for the advice. Also calling the attorney in the morning.

:-(

[This message has been edited by worldsport (edited 18 June 2000).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by newtyp:
But honestly you should goto court and talk to the officer and the prosecutor and ask for a plea of a no point ticket which here in NJ it would be a obstruction of traffic, a no point summons but a 55~85 dollar fee + court fee's depending on the town

In Illinois (which appears to be where you got this ticket) there is no "point system". (Three moving violations within a year is our criterion for suspending a license.)

What you want your lawyer to ask for is "supervision". It's a kind of probation in which, for a specified period (say 30 days) the ticket is in a suspended status, and if you don't get another one during that period, it is removed from your record so the insurance company will never see it (although the courts can continue to see it if you get another ticket even after your supervision ends). If you DO get a second ticket during the supervision period, the first one stays on your record as a conviction (although I've heard that the courts aren't really good about making this happen).

Consult your attorney - preferably one who's familiar with the traffic court in the jurisdiction where your case will be heard. That's a big advantage, since then he/she ought to be familiar with the judge and prosecutor and what they're likely to agree to. (I direct my attorneys to do everything possible to keep the conviction off my record, even if it means a big fine.)

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
In Illinois (which appears to be where you got this ticket) there is no "point system". (Three moving violations within a year is our criterion for suspending a license.)

That is interesting... Is there no distinction between levels of moving violation? Do the insurance companies assign their own "points" to different types of violations?

 

[nsxtasy]

That is interesting... Is there no distinction between levels of moving violation?

Yes - your license can be suspended, or even revoked, for a single occurrence for violations that are considered particularly egregious, including DUI, drag racing, auto theft, and failure to pay child support, among other infractions.

More information at http://www.sos.state.il.us/depts/drivers/rr/chap6.html

Do the insurance companies assign their own "points" to different types of violations?

I believe they do, so that (for example) your insurance rates will rise for DUI or vehicular manslaughter, but not for running a traffic signal.

Keep in mind that for an existing insurance policy, the insurance companies generally only do something if your license is actually suspended; it's when you apply for a new policy that they retrieve your record and convictions affect your rates. More info in the FAQ under "insurance".

 

[steve-a]

You were going 140 mph, you're complaining about a ticket for 70 mph, and you think the COP is a jerk?

 

[worldsport]

I don't remember saying the cop was a jerk. We live in a society of legal boundries. Was going 140 illegal? Sure. Am a fortunate for getting a ticket going 70 rather than 140? Sure. All I am wondering is can I beat this ticket due to some discrepancies. As a person being ticketed I too have rights. We have adopted a system to deal with legal issues such as speeding. If my rights were violated I'd be a fool not to try and beat the ticket. I am not some yahoo who speeds and races when there are people on the roads with me. It was in the middle of nowhere at night and the road was free and clear infront of me. Anyone who owns an NSX has to have occasional triple digit outbursts. More appropriate on the highway. Yeah obviously, but this wasn't Main Street, Anytown USA.... It was out west of Chicago in the corn fields.

 

[ChopsJazz]

How many times have you broken the posted speed limit? How many times have you boken it by 50 mph? How about by a factor of two? And now, how many times have you been caught? Take your medicine like a good boy and just be glad you don't get a ticket for every time your right foot gets the better of you.

 

[Lud]

I have to disagree about just "taking your medicine" and paying the ticket if you are caught speeding. On that theory, shouldn't you also go and turn yourself in for speeding if the police don't happen to catch you...?

 

[ChopsJazz]

On the contrary. The way I see it Lud, is that for the number of times I've enjoyed the upper limits of my car's capabilities in a safe albeit illegal fashion, I probably deserve to get the one ticket that I get dinged for. Maybe it'll teach me to be more careful.
The last ticket I got was for 75 in 55 zone. And, honest to God, I was just keeping up with traffic in the slow lane. My wife said to fight it, but you know, just the week before we'd been at triple digit speeds for hours. Yes, hours! Even got her up to 160 mph a couple times (the car, not my wife), so I just swallowed it and accepted my ticket.
I did, however, go to court and explain to the judge that everyone was going the same speed and that I was singled out because of the NSX. He was a nice enough guy and reduced the fine to $10.
I'm not saying you should throw up your hands and ask to be taken to jail, but a ticket for 70 mph when you'd just been going 140? Come on, consider yourself lucky!

 

[dollenz]

This is how the game is played: They (cops) are doing everything they can to get you - you, law abiding citizen going 5 to 10 miles per hour over the speed limit most of the time. You are doing everything you can to speed and not get caught - most of the time, 10 to 15 mph (for NSX owners,the rest do five to ten) over the limit just because it is so safe to do so and because our speed limits are so artificial to start with. They use everything they can to prove that you were speeding and deserve a ticket, you should in turn be able to use everything you can to beat that ticket.

You "deserve" that ticket as much as they "deserve" to be wasting their time and our taxpayers money giving "easy" tickets to law abiding citizens and not spending their time catching real irresponsible, wreckless drivers who are racing on our freeways, crossing across three lanes in front of people just trying to catch up with each other. I'm guilty of the 140 mph burst just like many other NSX owners are. However, my bursts of speed are on known back roads through the middle of fields with corn or tomatoes growing, with no intersections of any kind and with just resurfaced roads - 3.75 miles of it to be exact.

 

[dollenz]

By the way Chopsjazz, being at triple digit speeds for hours is downright irresponsible unless you are on a racetrack and you certainly deserve every ticket you get - just my opinion of course.

 

[EndLeSS]

hey hey,

Sorry to jump in, but what ya say dollenz doesn't really make too much sense. I don't have an NSX, but i do speed (in kmph, not mph), but i don't drag race.

You said that since cops are wasting time issuing tickets to ppl who don't deserve it, when the could be doing more important stuff (like what you said...catching reckless racers)
But then you said that you go 140mph....that seems rather reckless, even considering what you said (triple digit speeds deserve to be on the track, NOT anywhere else...as far as i remember, corn fields aren't really race tracks)
And you said that ChopsJazz deserves every ticket he gets...and yer saying you don't deserve every ticket you get (if you do get them), because you're speeding "safely" on your "racetrack", the cornfields. Sorry man, ya lost me. Just don't take offense, i really don't want any flamewars.

l8z

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by dollenz:
You "deserve" that ticket as much as they "deserve" to be wasting their time and our taxpayers money giving "easy" tickets to law abiding citizens and not spending their time catching real irresponsible, wreckless drivers who are racing on our freeways

Actually, they should be chasing after drivers who are reckless, instead of those who are wreckless.

 

[dollenz]

No offense taken Endless. Sorry it doesn't make sense to you, it sure makes a lot of sense to me. . )

 

[dollenz]

Thank you for the correction Nsxtacy - I'm struggling with the mastery of the English language. You see, I was borned, raised and educated in Chile (South America) and English is my second language. As hard as some of us "foreigners" try to master both languages, it's just a pretty hard thing to do. What can I say, I'll try to do better.

 

[nsxtasy]

Please understand that I was not trying to make fun of your use of the English language. My intention was only humorous - "reckless" meaning irresponsible behavior while driving, "wreckless" meaning someone who hasn't had an accident (a wreck). That's why I used the smiley face . I'm sorry if you were offended.

Yo no trataba de divertirme de tus palabras, solamente hacia chiste. Es muy dificil escribir en un idioma que no es su indigeno. Lo siento mucho.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 27 June 2000).]

 

[AndrewB93]

Can someone explain for me how in this country the Police is hand in hand with the Insurance companies. Why is it that by getting a ticket it should effect insurance premiums. It seems like some kind of legal mafia, are the Police or the State getting kick-backs from the Insurance companies. I know in Europe (maybe certain countries) that if you get pulled over all you do is pay the fine and thats all, insurance is not effected by it.

 

[G-man]

Originally posted by AndrewB93:
Can someone explain for me how in this country the Police is hand in hand with the Insurance companies. Why is it that by getting a ticket it should effect insurance premiums. It seems like some kind of legal mafia, are the Police or the State getting kick-backs from the Insurance companies

Well, not quite. The idea is a pretty simple one. The faster you go on a regular basis, the more often you are likely to get caught for speeding. The more times you are caught for speeding, the more your insurance company realizes that maybe old AndrewB93 is a little too high a risk and will eventually run into something, or God forbid, someone and do some serious damage to life and property. If you drive at 75mph+ all the time you are 200x more likely to be killed in an accident or to kill someone else. Add a few drinks to that mix and your insurance company figures you are just an accident waiting to happen. The worse you behavior, the greater the chance you are going to crash and burn and hurt yourself or someone else. The higher a risk you are, the more you have to pay for the benefit of insurance.

So, as you can see, there is no Mafia involvement here, at least not in the cop/insurance company scheme. Now, the paint and body repair market, that is a different story.

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
Y2K NSX #51 Yellow/Black