Is the Base NC1 Really the Type-S?

[DJ Iceman]

I've been thinking about this. The reason given by Acura for leaving off luxury features like cooled seats and folding mirrors is that they would add weight and therefore be at the expensive of performance. Had the "base" NC1 included these and many other features, then removing them to drop weight for a more performance-oriented version would naturally be called a Type-S (and people wouldn't complain because they would knowingly choose between the loaded-up luxury variant and the less well-equipped performance variant).

That seems reasonable to me. But then I took it a step further (which is probably a step too far, but see what you think). The base car could also have just used the 500HP engine and driven the rear wheels--no hybrid bits, no SH-SHAWD, include a big frunk, etc. Yes, there would be turbo lag and yes, it would perform more poorly at the track. But wouldn't that be forgiven if there was an NSX Type-S (which is today's NC1), that offered better performance at a higher price point?

In summary, I think Acura could have called the current NC1 the NSX Type-S and everyone would have been happy. Happier? You know what I mean...

 

[NZNick]

To my mind, the Type-S model has to have some special substitutions of parts / equipment to qualify - for example carbon-kevlar bucket seats that are substantially lighter and lower than the standard items, and the single pane glass partition between cabin & engine, mesh engine cover, and slightly lowered and stiffer suspension. But I don't think these type of changes would cut the mustard with today's NC1 buyer. It wouldn't make sense to me to have introduced a Type-S model at the same time as the standard NC1 - it needs to be a special evolution of the beast.

 

[Bricks and Bio]

I've been thinking about this. The reason given by Acura for leaving off luxury features like cooled seats and folding mirrors is that they would add weight and therefore be at the expensive of performance. Had the "base" NC1 included these and many other features, then removing them to drop weight for a more performance-oriented version would naturally be called a Type-S (and people wouldn't complain because they would knowingly choose between the loaded-up luxury variant and the less well-equipped performance variant).

That seems reasonable to me. But then I took it a step further (which is probably a step too far, but see what you think). The base car could also have just used the 500HP engine and driven the rear wheels--no hybrid bits, no SH-SHAWD, include a big frunk, etc. Yes, there would be turbo lag and yes, it would perform more poorly at the track. But wouldn't that be forgiven if there was an NSX Type-S (which is today's NC1), that offered better performance at a higher price point?

In summary, I think Acura could have called the current NC1 the NSX Type-S and everyone would have been happy. Happier? You know what I mean...

Another poster here previously mentioned that prototypes were observed with features like the lane assist stuff. It just got cut off the feature list by the bean counters

I would have gladly given up a couple of speakers in the hi fi I rarely use to get that lane assist feature

I don't know if they had looked at ventilated seats (or a heated steering wheel), but they definitely effed up not including a height adjustment for the seats.

The brief for the car was to top a Ferrari 458, so just having 500 HP would not get you there.

And again, there is some brand development going on, SH AWD is integral to Acura's pitch.

 

[DJ Iceman]

Yeah, I guess that's what got me on this train of thought to begin with. We occasionally have threads here where people list "what features do you wish the NC1 had" and it inevitably includes things like you mentioned, a full digital dash, updated infotainment, etc. They could have (and still could, I suppose) load up the car with all that stuff but there is no way it would be without added weight and therefore at the expense of performance. So I think the only way they can add all that stuff now would be in concert with a significant bump in power, otherwise the refreshed NSX would have worse performance than the current one (which would be embarrassing to say the least). And to release an actual Type-S now, where the base car was already designed to be low-weight with very little in terms of unnecessary features, would be difficult. I'm not talking about a Type-R, by the way, where I'd expect things like the radio and sound insulation to be deleted.

I don't know, I guess if I was in charge at Acura I'd be looking at an NSX Touring Edition or something like that with more luxury features and slightly decreased performance.

 

[Honcho]

For the NA2, the Type-S was actually the most expensive trim model you could buy from 97-01. They loaded it up with options like navigation and custom interiors. When it came to weight reduction, it wasn't really all that drastic. Carbon/kevlar seats, racing steering wheel, lighter spoiler, manual steering, mesh engine cover, lighter battery, lighter wheels. Even in 1997, the NSX budget was severely curtailed, so Honda had to get creative. Seems the same way today. If Acura did all of that type of stuff to the NC1, it wouldn't require any fundamental (and expensive) redesign of the car, just like for the NA2. But, they could find at least 100 lb that way. Tweak the tune to add 10-20 hp up top and, voila! Type-S without having to really do anything drastic. That's why I've always been optimistic about a NC1 Type-S making an appearance, especially in light of the Acura brand's Type-S marketing push for the entire product line. Just those improvements will show up on the track (faster lap times, 1/4 mile, etc), so they can advertise it as a faster version of the NSX and charge a premium for it. Porsche is legendary for doing this. If they price it at say $190,000, it would be interesting to see how many NSX customers choose the Type-S over the base model. It seems a lot more plausible to me than re-working the GT3 into a NSX-R.

**EDIT** Another thought is they could simply change the optioning/package to add the Type-S trim. The base $157k is the NSX. The Carbon'd-up, CCB $206k version is the Type-S. Just do a little weight reduction (special seats, wheels, etc) and a slight power bump and its even easier.

 

[sbkim]

I would have been really happy with seat height adjustment and blind side monitoring (BSM) at a minimum. I was surprised to see R8 also didn't have BSM or other drives aid but has seat adjustment.

 

[Silver F16]

I think they ran out of development money so options were limited. They were to come out with customization options almost like Porsche menu. It hasn't happened and we are in year 5 of NC1 so I'm certain the budget got cut due to low sales. Building PMC sedans and SUVs is partially a life line to support existence of PMC and part manufacturing development for more low volume vehicles , so they say. I don't believe the marketing spin. Keep in mind that Clement Dsouza got let go. The only way to get PMC to pay for itself was to build other cars there and market it special edition Acura with fancy paint jobs.

2022 NSX will get the Honda sensing/ Acura watch nonsense. Porsche understands sports car buyers well enough to not make autonomous tech a standard feature on a sports car. I see it as an insult so at least keep it as an option.

I heard e turbos is under development at Honda. If successful, you can ditch all hybrid hardware and keep bi turbo for lightweight variant. The lag can be addressed by adding e powered motor on turbo shaft to spin up before boost kicks in. This will address lag. There are challenges with heat being so close to turbos and exhaust, nothing that can't be solved with time and money.

 

[Bricks and Bio]

I believe Clement just got reassigned, his LinkedIn page still has him at Honda as a Chief Engineer.

If they can't get budget for the program, how could we expect them to re-engineer the car to move to electric turbos? That would likely require a major rework of the electrical system and take a bunch of time/money.

Porsche offers multiple assist items/packages, for example [FONT=Porsche Next, Arial Narrow, Arial, sans-serif]Remote ParkAssist incl. Lane Change Assist and 3D Surround View for just over $4K, and they offer night vision, lane keeping.[/FONT]
[FONT=Porsche Next, Arial Narrow, Arial, sans-serif]I would be fine with Acura offering it as options. Remember a lot of buyers of high end toys are older folks like me and I am thankful for some nannies as long as they work well and aren't too intrusive. [/FONT]

 

[sbkim]

2022 NSX will get the Honda sensing/ Acura watch nonsense.

This is good news. Is this official?

 

[drmanny3]

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on here. If you pay attention to the automotive world right now you would understand that there is a dramatic change (Electrification) taking place. Given that most new cars take between 3 to 5 years to gestate we have only just begun to see the changes a coming. So for those of you who think that Honda is going to go backwards by removing the hybrid system-STOP smoking it! Get over it. If anything they are moving forward, not backward. Lets be honest, if you have not purchased the car as is already I cannot imagine how adding a 100 hp and lowering the weight is going to get you there.

As for Honda/Acura adding the safety components of their Safety System to the car, I believe that it will not occur. After all this is a supercar and does Ferrari or Lambo or McLaren or Pagani or ? offer Lane Keep? At first I was concerned that the car did not have Blind Spot Warning as do all of my previous cars over the last 5 years. However, the mirrors on this car are set at an optimum position affording "for me" sufficient rear view. Frankly Cruise control is a waste. I like driving the car, if I want a car to do the driving for me then I will take the Volvo.


Adding an adjustment to the seat height will only aid those who are short. At present the seat height accommodates the vast majority of drivers. If I recall none of the NSX s 90 through 2005 had seat height adjustment? If you are too short get yourself a cushion or have a cushion custom made for the car.

Lets not forget what the purpose of developing and producing the NC1 was for Honda/Acura.

 

[Bricks and Bio]

Ferrari offers the following for the Roma:

There are also many driver assistance systems, including adaptive cruise control, automatic emergency braking, lane departure warning, blind-spot detection, and cross-traffic alert.

I don't want a car that drives for me, I just appreciate what the assistance systems when well implemented do. Noting the blind spots the NSX has.
My Q50S Hybrid is semi autonomous, it makes commuting easier. My LC 500 convertible has minimally intrusive nannies that just keep me informed.

 

[Silver F16]

Budget was quite limited to begin with unlike Gen 1 which had much less restrictions with project driven by Soichiro. With the switch to longitudal engine and twin turbo, they blew the budget and were counting on succes of the program before offering more options. They soon realized with low sales, development for additional options may not pay for themselves.

As for 2022, either the car is shelved altogether or it will get a revamp. I heavily lean towards a refresh and given the NSX is the only car in Hondas lineup that does not have sensing. I'm sure it will be standard if not an option.

As for turbos and hybrids. Anything can change so as life. Turbos were the craze many decades ago. 992 - 911GT3 still comes with a 9k NA screamer at the same entry price point as NSX. Honda may even go all electric in next gen, if there is business case.

While hybrids and turbos are in fashion, it isn't desired by enthusiasts since the newer turbo Ferrari are not holding value as well compared to outgoing NA 458.

With Hondas NEW CEO coming from R&D, we don't yet know what changes are in store but with Japan talking trash about going all electric and hybrid by 2035, you know the writing is on the wall ...unless their grid start having outages and need to go back to nuclear powerplant...making them rethink the time frame. Fuel cell is still at play at Honda. There is too much going on in this industry with electrification, autonomous (honda is 1st to release level3 last month), and fuel cell, there is only so much R&D budget to go around. Hence Honda is parternering with good olde GM on fuel cell vehicle.

Government propose all kinds of drastic measures only to realize a long transition is most feasible and realistic. 2035 is not a done deal. With 2035 being 14 years away, no reason for Honda to make NSX variants without hybrid or not have the front axle motors. Couple years ago, there were prototypes of units without front motors as type R variants with a higher tune engine.

All that then quieted down until last month. There were prototypes spotted in Europe, It may be Italy, driven by F1 Redbull drivers. These units were thought to be preproduction 2022 undergoing final tuning. Japan is not offering sales on 2021 to wind down inventory before news circulates about the refresh.

Meanwhile, reading the Japanese automotive sites. Japanese are not keen with the NSX nor where it is built. Sales are very low and some of you already know NSX development has moved back to Japan. They are cooking up something because volume of couple hundred units a year just isn't sustainable.

 

[drmanny3]

Budget was quite limited to begin with unlike Gen 1 which had much less restrictions with project driven by Soichiro. With the switch to longitudal engine and twin turbo, they blew the budget and were counting on succes of the program before offering more options. They soon realized with low sales, development for additional options may not pay for themselves.

As for 2022, either the car is shelved altogether or it will get a revamp. I heavily lean towards a refresh and given the NSX is the only car in Hondas lineup that does not have sensing. I'm sure it will be standard if not an option.

As for turbos and hybrids. Anything can change so as life. Turbos were the craze many decades ago. 992 - 911GT3 still comes with a 9k NA screamer at the same entry price point as NSX. Honda may even go all electric in next gen, if there is business case.

While hybrids and turbos are in fashion, it isn't desired by enthusiasts since the newer turbo Ferrari are not holding value as well compared to outgoing NA 458.

With Hondas NEW CEO coming from R&D, we don't yet know what changes are in store but with Japan talking trash about going all electric and hybrid by 2035, you know the writing is on the wall ...unless their grid start having outages and need to go back to nuclear powerplant...making them rethink the time frame. Fuel cell is still at play at Honda. There is too much going on in this industry with electrification, autonomous (honda is 1st to release level3 last month), and fuel cell, there is only so much R&D budget to go around. Hence Honda is parternering with good olde GM on fuel cell vehicle.

Government propose all kinds of drastic measures only to realize a long transition is most feasible and realistic. 2035 is not a done deal. With 2035 being 14 years away, no reason for Honda to make NSX variants without hybrid or not have the front axle motors. Couple years ago, there were prototypes of units without front motors as type R variants with a higher tune engine.

All that then quieted down until last month. There were prototypes spotted in Europe, It may be Italy, driven by F1 Redbull drivers. These units were thought to be preproduction 2022 undergoing final tuning. Japan is not offering sales on 2021 to wind down inventory before news circulates about the refresh.

Meanwhile, reading the Japanese automotive sites. Japanese are not keen with the NSX nor where it is built. Sales are very low and some of you already know NSX development has moved back to Japan. They are cooking up something because volume of couple hundred units a year just isn't sustainable.

You make some interesting points. Thanks

 

[docjohn]

I'm with Honcho I think the mothership has something in store for NC1 after 22....

 

[Bram]

Interesting to read that Clements and CO, all these folks started on the NSX project on day one and help build/design the the PMC have all been reassigned or retired......got to wonder why.

Bram

 

[Bricks and Bio]

Why would you pay a top engineer to sit at an underutilized factory to watch paint dry?

These folks get deployed to projects requiring their abilities.

I was thrilled when Turd retired. Only Bozo the clown would try to outperform a 458 with a torque steer prone transverse engine layout.

I don't get this fashion point regarding turbos, it's a combo of an emission thing with the manufacturers getting to plunk smaller, cheaper to build ICE motors under the hoods.

Ferrari depreciation is a mix of issues including like bringing the F8, an 488, refresh which is closer to a new model. The biggest recent depreciation thing is on the 812 coupes. They built too many and then a lot of their customers wanted to transition to the convertible version. And no turbos in those cars.

Because Lexus has so much of the fleet running hybrids, they can offer the nice V8 in cars like my LC 500 convertible and now the IS 500.

 

[sbkim]

I'm with Honcho I think the mothership has something in store for NC1 after 22....

Looks like 2022 NSX was silently released: :biggrin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNbcaZH1LYY

 

[Honcho]

Looks like 2022 NSX was silently released:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNbcaZH1LYY

That's a 21. 22 is not set for release until the Fall.

 

[Honcho]

This is good news. Is this official?

They have to do it if they want to continue to sell the car in Japan. Japanese law changed to require semi-auto (lane sensing/collision avoid) for all new cars after 2020, I believe. This may also be a reason why there is no JDM 21 available.

 

[sbkim]

That's a 21. 22 is not set for release until the Fall.

Sorry I forgot to add a smiley face after my post. I can't imagine Acura releasing 2022 when we are just seeing 2021 unless I just experienced Rip Van Winkle

 

[sbkim]

They have to do it if they want to continue to sell the car in Japan. Japanese law changed to require semi-auto (lane sensing/collision avoid) for all new cars after 2020, I believe. This may also be a reason why there is no JDM 21 available.

Interesting... hopefully they will release some info by June before I lock in my 2021.

 

[NSXY.]

2022 getting changes typically associated with a Major Model Change.

 

[docjohn]

HaHa well if the mother ship gets ahold of NC1 lets hope they are still not honoring 280 kps engine ratings.....

 

[whiteNSXs]

Looks like 2022 NSX was silently released: :biggrin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNbcaZH1LYY

That is a 2025 model. The only changes are the valve stems and a new "Heritage" color of Grand Prix White.
Steve

 

[MaxGeek]

That is a 2025 model. The only changes are the valve stems and a new "Heritage" color of Grand Prix White.
Steve

That's okay because the base model is already a Type-S! :tongue: