Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

[H-carWizKid]

That's a good point. If dealerships sold cars for $500-$1000 above real cost (even above just the real invoice), and people knew that going in, the dealership would continue to make large profits due to the high volume. No need to haggle, no potential for a poor customer experience with a saleperson who's primary goal is to maximize potential (personal) profit (I know not all car salespeople are that way; just most of them) and the deal would be fair for both the buyer and the seller.

In addition, the dealership would reduce its overhead, salary, SGA expenses, etc related to the sales personnel and could run the show with far fewer salespeople.

In a fantasy world that would be true, but this is a competetive market.

The guy that owned the Honda store I worked at once owned the most successful Ford store in that market. He listened to some advisors who recomended he switch his dealership to "one price" as a means to draw more customers.

When he made the change, he lost his business. Two Ford dealers on the outskirts of town made a killing by undercutting his "one price" by small increments of $$$, and stole all his sales volume.
According to the rules, once you go to a one price format, you can't negotiate, so he lost deals hand over fist.
Eventually he sold the Ford franchise to one of the competing dealership chains and they immeadiately killed the one price promise and went back to traditional sales.

When I sold VW I had people that would drive 2 hours to save $100 bucks. Customers know no loyalties.

I remember when one guy figured out that our new car customers were recieving coupons from our service department for 25% off services. He went through the roof because we didn't extend the same pricing for him since he had gone elsewhere to buy his car.
We ended up giving him the discount because he bitched to high heaven until our service writer gave in just to shut him up. He saved about $5.00.

How long do you think you could offer your cars at $1000 over, or $500 over before somebody decides he could do better elsewhere? An hour? Maybe two?
then your deals run out the door just like they did for Lou.

Saturn doesn't deal with this because they are ALL one price dealers.

For the guy selling a few used auction cars on a corner lot- He is dealing in limited floorplan, and cost of operation. Of course he can afford to move 90 cars a month (3 a day) off his lot @ $500 profit apiece- shit that is $45,000 per month less expenses. Hell yes that is a good business.

Incidentally, I have bought cars under a similar circumstance abnd found it to be absolutely hassle free, the common name for this practice is "Flipping" cars, or "turning over". I even dabbled in the idea of "flipping" cars myself- but then I discovered that it could go horribly wrong.

You have to be careful selling cars "as is". You open yourself to a lot of liability, and someone could sue the piss out of you.

Or someone like- I dunno... Len 3.8 from this very thread shows up to buy a car and you get ridiculed for your attempts to keep yourself in the clear by having the buyer give verifying evidence that he knew the car was sold "as is".

How about this? We all agree that Dealers have a lot of money to secure legal rep, and accountants, and manage their risk. Is it not conceivable that they understand what it takes to turn a nut in their business?

The rest of us, as insurance guys (me), executives, software engineeers... We have OPINIONS. and in our imaginary utopia, perhaps those opinions would work- like socialized medicine-

In the real world however...

To answer the question about "average profit"

There is no such thing as "average profit" on a car deal- every line has a different margin, and it depends on what you consider "profit"

Do you want to include spins, spiffs, dealer cash, kick back from the bank to f&I, volume incentives, and the profit from the resale of the trade?

It also depends on whether this is a new, or used car deal.

Or are you asking what kind of price over invoice would I consider "fair"?

Every deal is different- if you walk in with a check in your hand to buy a car on my lot and all I have to do is walk around and take you on a test drive- on that deal I would take a mini all day.

Now if we gotta sit at my desk and play poker with the deal for 5 hours, and you want a car I have to go get, with options I have to install- at that point let me have what I earned.

If I gotta have F&I call 10 banks to get you bought- we want some kick off the rate- give us what we earned.


Too many variables to over simplify it.

My advice?

Be respectful, and get respect- don't ridicule the salesperson who attempts to help you. It is better to have a friend than an adversary.

Don't try to drive cars you probably won't buy- if you want to drive a ZO6 go to a Corvette club meeting and make nice with the tupperware boys. I am sure someone will at least give you a good ride in one, if not let you drive.

Advocate for yourself, and get your own financing- I hate F&I- I did when I was in the business, and I still do today- too much shade in there.

 

[steveny]

The guy that owned the Honda store I worked at once owned the most successful Ford store in that market. He listened to some advisors who recomended he switch his dealership to "one price" as a means to draw more customers.

When he made the change, he lost his business. Two Ford dealers on the outskirts of town made a killing by undercutting his "one price" by small increments of $$$, and stole all his sales volume.

I would look at this situation as the dealer asking too much then. I have never been disappointed by mans greed so far. If the dealer had shaved the price of the cars enough, no other dealer would have under cut him. As you said eairler the holdback is not part of the deal...Well make it part of the deal and watch cars fly off the show room floor. Other dealers will have to follow or eventually you will have the entire market.

Every deal is different- if you walk in with a check in your hand to buy a car on my lot and all I have to do is walk around and take you on a test drive- on that deal I would take a mini all day.

This is how I buy all cars for myself

Now if we gotta sit at my desk and play poker with the deal for 5 hours, and you want a car I have to go get, with options i have to install-

This is how most sales people handle the transaction when I walk in with a check in my hand to buy a car on the lot.

Too many variables to over simplify it.

And that is the problem in and of itself. From my experience when one person understands all the variables in a situation and the other person doesn't someone is gonna get screwed.

 

[H-carWizKid]

And that is the problem in and of itself. From my experience when one person understands all the variables in a situation and the other person doesn't someone is gonna get screwed.

Man, if that doesn't crystalize this whole subject for any reader who sees it nothing ever will.

Thank you, I couldn't have put it better myself.

oh wait- "Buyer Beware"

Philip

 

[SugrueNSX]

Re: Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

I was looking at used NSXs a year ago and I said that one of the reasons I wanted the NSX was because of the small amount of deprecation on the car and he said “if you really want to minimize deprecation you should buy a new Elise from us.” They were selling them at 10k over msrp at the time.

Patrick

 

[SugrueNSX]

Re: Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

I once had a salesman at a big Ford dealership in Las Vegas tell me that I should buy a new car from them because they were local to where I lived and if I bought the car anywhere else then their service department would not service the car or do any warrantee work on it.

Patrick

 

[steveny]

Re: Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

I was looking at used NSXs a year ago and I said that one of the reasons I wanted the NSX was because of the small amount of deprecation on the car

That is until you are ready to trade it in. Then the car is a hard sell, and the dealer has to sit on it for a long time like the last few he had, and the dealer will have to run it through the auction at a loss because of the kind of car it is, and every other possible excuse to screw you out of a fair trade.

 

[clr1024]

Man, when I go car shopping I should just take you with me, be a lot less of a headache, I could just point to you and say all deals go through my associate:biggrin: Your below story is a good example of why the stereotype exists of car salesman, whether they like it or not, its the majority rule perception.

I have only had a few good buying experiences in my lifetime. Up until last week end I thought I knew every trick car salesman use.
So I have this friend Ray he is an little older than me 56. He worked hard his whole life in a gravel pit. The world pretty much rolls him every chance they get. His current vehicle a 2002 Toyota Tacoma completely stripped cost him $37,000 dollars by the time he will make all the payment for the 72 month period at 17%. I have seen this guys credit report in the past and then again last week. The current report is 70 points lower than the report I saw last year. As I looked through the report I saw a huge amount of inquires on the same date. I did some research and found that those inquires were done on the day he bought a new car for his wife. The phucking dealership ran his report enough times to get his score down to the sub-par level where they could sell the loan to a company who would allow them to mark the loan up. Why did they do that, because this guy didn't know any better. The report should have been sent by dealer-trac.

The reason I looked at his credit report last week is because he was buying another car. A $33,000 dollar sedan. So he goes to the dealership and works out a deal. They tell him it is a one day deal and he has to put down a deposit of 2k before he can drive the car. So he puts down the deposit and drives the car likes it but wants to wait before making the decision. They pressured him to the point his diabetes took his sugar down too low and they had to let him leave to get his shot.

Here is the deal they had for him... He traded in his Toyota truck they give him 10,000 for it he owes 4000. He puts down 2000 more and they sell him the extended warranty for 1700 plus the environmental package for 1000. then he has payments of 780 bucks for 72 months.
So his total...
6000 truck
2000 down payment
56,160 780x72
---------
64,160 total.

I called the dealership up. The guy says he won't talk to me unless Ray tells him it is ok. Ray tells him it is ok. I am going on about how much of a rip off this deal is. The guy is doing the same pitch most salespeople do asking what do I do for a living, how do I know it is not a good deal Blah, blah, blah. Then he tells me it is already a done deal that Ray signed the papers and there is nothing I can do about it, with a snicker in his voice. Right over the phone I got him to shave 80 bucks off the payment. After a 15 minute argument I hang up on the guy.

Next morning...
Ray and I go to a different dealership. Ray is nervous, he knows I have been thrown out of several dealerships because I speak my mind. He just wants to buy a car and not make any enemies.
So we sit down they have actually have the car he wants in an automatic the last place tried to sell him a standard, he is disabled, . So the window sticker is 34,000 I get them down to 30,500. Then they ask about a trade. Ray says he has the truck and owes 4k and wants 10k for the truck if he has to trade it in but would rather keep it. The salesman asks where it is financed through. Ray says americredit. The guys eyes light right up. I told him to not get too excited as if he can't get Ray, with a 680 FICO at least 6.9% for 60 months there will be no deal. Ray realized at that moment to shut up and he did not say another word for the rest of the day to anyone but me. I got him 2.9% for 60 months
Here's how the deal turned out.
1000 down payment
37,260 621x60
38,260
A savings of 25,900 bucks from the dealer where Ray went without me. And he gets to keep his truck. They never tried to sell me the enviormental package or the extended warranty. I asked them why and they said because it appears you know better than to buy it.
The first dealer stalled enough time before returning the deposit so the check would clear. On the fourth day I had my attorney call them and request the check back. They sent it that day.
What happened here I think would happen to anyone, who doesn't know what is going on, at any dealer in the country.

 

[clr1024]

Re: Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

Why should you pay $2.00 for it at the bar? That is a 200% markup!
Because if you want something it will cost, and you will pay. Welcome to commerce.

I don't think thats a good comparison, its not 200% mark-up anyway its x percent mark-up from what the bar paid for it, to you the cheapest you can get it is 100% mark-up from a grocery store. When you are at a bar you are paying for ambiance etc and you have the choice to be there and either drink beer or not. If you don't feel its worth $2 then you will either not get the beer or get the beer somewhere else. It would be a better comparrison if you compared buying beer from different liquor stores or grocery stores and you better believe that lots of people are going to shop around for the cheapest beer specials, good old days of college. And guess what when I am at the grocery store I am glad I don't have to haggle with the store owner the cost of beer, him starting out at say $16 a 6 pack and me working my way down to $6-8. Anyway a car is more of a necessity in life, at least the US versus beer (to most people anyway)

 

[steveny]

Man, when I go car shopping I should just take you with me, be a lot less of a headache, I could just point to you and say all deals go through my associate:biggrin: Your below story is a good example of why the stereotype exists of car salesman, whether they like it or not, its the majority rule perception.

I put the deals together for all of my family members, both sides, and most of my friends. If it is a domestic auto, which most are I usually don't have any problems as the dealers already know me.

 

[clr1024]

If it is a domestic auto.

Probably be a while before I buy a domestic auto:wink:

 

[steveny]

Probably be a while before I buy a domestic auto:wink:

Can't blame you there. The domestics are worth about 50% of what they charge for them in the first place.

The hardest place to haggle is a BMW dealership, at least the one here. Those guys are tough!

 

[H-carWizKid]

Man, when I go car shopping I should just take you with me, be a lot less of a headache, I could just point to you and say all deals go through my associate:biggrin: Your below story is a good example of why the stereotype exists of car salesman, whether they like it or not, its the majority rule perception.

Actually- that is an example why people don't trust dealership F&I- the salesguy wasn't responsible for that shadyness.

It is your association of the two that leads to the perception. At most dealerships, Sales and F&I are different departments, getting paid only on their part of the deal.

The point of the beer example is- it is a product that cost nothing to make, but is charge you X dollars to purchase, and no one asks any questions...

Here we had a company making profit hand over fist, and no one questions it?!?!

WTF?!?!

(I was being a little fecetious too BTW) but your right, the whole of the question was not answered, so lets revisit.

Shall we?

the question was:

In how many other businesses do you start out with a price that's 3x what
you're willing to sell it for, and then go through a transparent, stupid little
game of handing the customer off to someone else to get a reasonable price?


Answer: Any business in which the parties expect to negotiate as part of the transaction.
This is called offer/counter/ offer.

Example?

I ask how much a dealer-installed accessory (cassette deck) would cost.request for quote
Salesman says $450. Offer
I say I'm not interested. counter
Salesman says $300. offer
I say I'm not interested. counter
Salesman says, talk to my manager, maybe he can do better.
Manager says $150 offer

Pretty standard really...

Secondary example

I want to buy this couch- how much is it? request for quote
Salesman says $1500 offer
Too much- how about $900? counter offer known as the "Low Ball"
Salesman says I can do it for $1100 that is as low as possible offer- known as "the bottom dollar"
Throw in the pillows and it's a done deal counter offer including assurance
salesman says let me see (goes to manager) ok done transaction concluded

I have done this on everything from Mountain bikes, to services provided- the ability to negotiate is something I am very proud of. It is a skill I think everyone should learn, and practice.

you would be amazed who you can negotiate with to get better prices. Ever think to make a counter to the Bike shop guy? I did. I haven't ever paid full price for a bicycle, and I often get things thrown into deals that were not advertised.

 

[nchopp]

You're trying to simplify things too much. Sure, it might only cost $0.0002 for a draft of Coors Lite, but you're ignoring the whole process. They have a marketing department, an R&D department, Administration, facilities, etc. to take care of. Just like in pharmaceuticals - there's a reason they're so expensive. Drugs aren't cheap to research, and for every 1 that makes it to the market, there are 15 that didn't.

 

[steveny]

I have done this on everything from Mountain bikes, to services provided- the ability to negotiate is something I am very proud of. It is a skill I think everyone should learn, and practice.

I do it too on everything I buy. I love to negotiate. My financial situation would allow me to pay the price they are asking up front but I really enjoy haggling. It is fun for me and I am good at it.
I try to price in the depreciation of what ever I buy up front so when I go to sell the item I am left with roughly the same money I started with.
My Uncle always says "watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves."

BTW Pete Coors goes to the local college here, Cornell University. He is a really nice guy I have talked with him several time. He is not hurting for money by any means. I bet he didn't give a rats ass what the dealer made on his Range Rover.

 

[H-carWizKid]

You're trying to simplify things too much. Sure, it might only cost $0.0002 for a draft of Coors Lite, but you're ignoring the whole process. They have a marketing department, an R&D department, Administration, facilities, etc. to take care of. Just like in pharmaceuticals - there's a reason they're so expensive. Drugs aren't cheap to research, and for every 1 that makes it to the market, there are 15 that didn't.

Actually I am not- according to the brewery tour guide, all the cost of manufacture, and distribution are covered by the resale of their industrial by-products. Every silver bullet is 100% pure profit.

I don't have access to the books to verify, but I did ask for clarification on your point during the tour. I guess I am putting a lot on the word of a tour guide, but he did seem to know his subject matter exceptionally well. It is my understanding that brewery tour guide is part of the track to sales, and marketing within the Coors organization.

I highly recomend the tour in Golden, it is a very impressive operation for sure- and they give you free beer at the end.

 

[mickeylex]

In a fantasy world that would be true, but this is a competetive market.

Yeah, I was hanging out in "wouldn't it be nice world" today, then some coworkers dumped some cr@p on me and brought me back to reality.

I must say, though, this has been a pretty informative thread.

 

[01a4man]

Re: Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

While looking at the CLS 55 with the fiancee and a friend and his wife " Asian people are really crazy and cheap". A persian sales guy said this. People in attendance:

1. Fiancee: Korean
2. Guy Friend: Vietnamese
3. Guy friend wife: Vietnamese
4. Me: Whie and Vietnamese mixed

Needless to say we did not purchase the CLS or any Mercedes products since then or ever.

 

[clr1024]

I have done this on everything from Mountain bikes, to services provided- the ability to negotiate is something I am very proud of. It is a skill I think everyone should learn, and practice.

you would be amazed who you can negotiate with to get better prices. Ever think to make a counter to the Bike shop guy? I did. I haven't ever paid full price for a bicycle, and I often get things thrown into deals that were not advertised.

I have never paid full price for a bike or my couches:biggrin: I can play the game, your right I am lumping the financing guy with the car salesman, but you two work for the same company. If you both aren't on the same page, i.e. treating the customer with respect, then it is still an issue to the consumer, you both represent the dealer. The customer isn't going to say oh my salesman is nice but my financial guy is jacka$$ he is going to say XYZ Dealer screwed me and you all get lumped together. If financial guys weren't trying to slip things by consumers then it wouldn't be a big deal but it happens all the time, "mistakes" on the contract that are not noticed. So as soon as the customer goes into the car dealership he/she has to have their gaurd up.

My point on the beer is that people will shop around for the lowest price they can get it, this applies to things that you can offer/counter offer with versus have fixed price, i.e. groceries, some people prefer winn dixie over publix, why because they feel its cheaper. On a large purchase like a car, I am going to shop around until I get a deal that I think is the best I can get.

 

[10Blade]

Re: Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

1) Concerning a Chysler Crossfire SRT-6
Me: it's an automatic.
Him: Yes.
Me: Does it come in stick?
Him: No.
Me: Why?
Him: The people who would buy this car don't want to be bothered with shifting gears.
Me: O.....kay....

 

[Tom239]

I want to buy this couch- how much is it? request for quote
Salesman says $1500 offer
Too much- how about $900? counter offer known as the "Low Ball"
Salesman says I can do it for $1100 that is as low as possible offer- known as "the bottom dollar"
Throw in the pillows and it's a done deal counter offer including assurance
salesman says let me see (goes to manager) ok done transaction concluded

Thanks, you've illustrated my point. The furniture store didn't start out at 3x the price they were willing to sell at.

I think everyone here knows what negotiating is. My point is, the way it's done by many car dealers is annoying. In most negotiating situations, starting out with a figure that's off by a factor of 3 is just insulting, and can work to your disadvantage. Many car dealers, though, have no inhibitions about being insulting.

 

[H-carWizKid]

Thanks, you've illustrated my point. The furniture store didn't start out at 3x the price they were willing to sell at.

I think everyone here knows what negotiating is. My point is, the way it's done by many car dealers is annoying. In most negotiating situations, starting out with a figure that's off by a factor of 3 is just insulting, and can work to your disadvantage. Many car dealers, though, have no inhibitions about being insulting.

Actually- you might be surprised how many people hear $450 and say "ok". That is why the number starts there. You are saying the dealer should lose out on that potential profit, but you never tell us why.

So I ask: Why?

Don't EVEN say "customer service" either- That is a crock of shit. Everyone wants businesses to give and give to the customer while the customer accepts little or no responsibility in the deal. That's bullshit my friend- a transaction is a two party affair, and you ought to own your end of it. Buying a car is a major purchase, and it is incumbent upon the buyer to inform themselves before entering into it.

Yes, it would be easier if when you asked the price the salesperson or their manager would just provide you with their lowest possible price.

That isn't the way it works. You have to ask for it, or wait out the counter game until they give it.

I get the feeling that even if they gave you the low price initially you would just assume you could STILL do better because you are ingrained to distrust, and possibly dislike the salesperson based on prior experiences. Instead of taking the low price you would wonder why it isn't $100.00 or $50.00

The point I have tried to make is that the salesman is just a gatekeeper on your journey to the purchase- you have to know how to work with him to get your deal. I understand you just want him to give it away like candy, but that just isn't the way it works.

I am sorry if you feel insulted by the process of pursuing a better deal. The fact that there are many folks who pay inflated prices for things must be deeply disturbing for you, but there have been a few examples laid out in this thread for you of industries that show extreme price fluctuations between what is asked, and the selling price. The furniture example non-withstanding.

We can go in circles all day as folks cite some hook, or crook they dealt with somewhere, sometime, on some deal- the fact is that the only thing you can control is you- how much you know, how much you spend, what you say, and what you do.

As you might see in my profile I am in the insurance business now and totally removed from sales. I am 6 years outside the car business and living in an entirely different part of the country. In every car deal I have been party to in the last 6 years I have worked the same side of the desk that you have. I have been the customer, but I have NEVER been the "Victim" and I have NEVER been party to a bad deal.

If you were impressed by Steveny's example then FOLLOW his example- you know why he prevailed? HE WAS INFORMED. He knew his stuff, and entered the situation prepared to deal in facts. He didn't just show up and expect a gift, he showed up ready to do battle (business).

Once again, If you really want a satisfying deal on a car (other than Saturn) I suggest you crank down the sensitivity meter, and realize that the situation is what it is and enter that situation properly prepared as consumers like Steveny, and I do.

Otherwise just go buy a Saturn and be done with it.
You either have to accept your responsibility to be a knowledgable consumer entering into a negotiation or you will be hell bent for frustration and indignity, as you are victimized and left to ponder the deal you shoulda, woulda, coulda got if your salesman hadn't been such a dick.

The victim angle won't win you anything more than some sympathy.

 

[H-carWizKid]

Re: Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

Why do we never have a thread about the proper way to negotiate for a car?


Philip

I asked

 

[steveny]

That's bullshit my friend- a transaction is a two party affair, and you ought to own your end of it. Buying a car is a major purchase, and it is incumbent upon the buyer to inform themselves before entering into it.

...and your end of the deal is trying to get the lowest price. If you are selling then your end is to get the highest price.
"I buy junk and sell antiques", is my motto.

If you were impressed by Steveny's example then FOLLOW his example- you know why he prevailed? HE WAS INFORMED. He knew his stuff, and entered the situation prepared to deal in facts. He didn't just show up and expect a gift, he showed up ready to do battle (business).

Thanks for the compliment. To be fully prepared you need to have a shirt on with a pocket. Have the title to your auto in the pocket with your check book. Bring with you a payment calculator or a payment book . Also bring a copy of your most current credit report, Know your FICO score and what it means. Bring invoices from several other cars at several other dealers, make sure the type is large font listing the other dealers name. Write down on this sheet prices below the sticker prices (prices you would like to pay) on the sheet for each auto. Leave these on the salesman desk where they can be seen. Know more about the car than the salesman, put him on edge, take control of the situation. Know what prime rate is. If you have a trade clean it up have it detailed and have trade-in prices from NADA, KBB, and Edmunds with you, printed off from their websites. Prepare to do battle!

 

[burbel]

I just went through this thread, and think I figured out what makes car salesman so different, at least for someone from my background. I don't haggle. I don't know of any places that haggle. If I went into a furniture store and asked on a couch and they said $1500, I would either pay $1500 or walk. In fact the only thing I would consider bargaining on is a car, but with the internet now I don't really see doing that anymore - Honda.com or Ford.com lets you get the options and gives you the price - I would either be willing to buy at that price or pass. Now buying used equipment, then haggling would come into play. But I think this thread is just about how most people resent the ideas of haggling in modern society. I know I dislike doing it, and will avoid it when possible.

 

[fifrules]

Re: Let's hear your stories, what was the dumbest thing a salesperson has said to you?

I'm buying my NSX for exactly what the owner is asking, I didn't even attempt to haggle. He knew it was a fair price, and so did I. :biggrin: