Meth Kit with CTSC

[DDozier]

Damn Dave, can I send my car to you to have everything set up right!? :biggrin::smile:

-Steve

Yes

 

[TURBO2GO]

If you go with the F/IC you can make whatever changes you want to the fuel system and still pass emmisions as long as the end effect is an engine that can be tuned to run very close to OEM design while in closed loop operation. Once the engine goes open loop the ECU stops looking at the O2 sensors and stops monitoring for efficiency, the onboard emmisions test do not run, so there is less to worry about causing a CEL.

The F/IC allows the OEM ECU to think it is in charge of everything, it does this by intercepting the incomming sensors (O2's, MAP) to the ECU altering them to get the ECU to act the way you want, it then looks at the outputs for fuel and ignition from the OEM ECU and modifies the outputs to the fuel injectors and ignition system to alter the way the engine runs. If you add larger injectors the F/IC will intercept the fuel injector pulse sent by the OEM ECU and shorten the pulse to allow less fuel to be injected into the engine. Then when you need more fuel it can also add to the pulse sent by the OEM ECU. There are limitations to the F/IC as far as injector size, I have had good luck with 550cc injectors others have run larger, but the farther you go from the factory injector size the less control you have over the new injector. Since this device was designed to work with OBDII OEM ECU's in most cases the OEM ECU has no idea the F/IC is there and will never throw a code if the tune for closed loop operation is correct.

The other limitation of the F/IC is that it has to modify the OEM ECU's signals and cannot generate its own signals like a stand-a-lone can. It has to react to what the OEM ECU is doing so it cannot be proactive. If you use it in the application it was designed for it is a great option, if you try to do to much like large amounts of boost and really large injectors you will not have an ideal setup to tune and may have issues that can not be worked out.

Dave

So I could keep my base CTSC system, add a FIC, Meth, injectors and pump... with a good tune hopefully have more accuracy of AF and timing than the base system, cool AIT's down with meth on the track, and possibly up the boost to say 9PSI and be fine. That sounds like it can net quite a bit more power, and it would pass emissions. The CEL system of the factory ECU would still be functional for the most part, and it would be fairly cost effective compared to installing an intercooler/aftercooler, water pump, lines, heat exchanger, fans.

Add a DashDaq with a NAVpod, setup some warning parameters, and be good to go.

Is this right? Or is my math wrong... LOL

Wouldn't this setup even be able to pass in CA?

 

[DDozier]

Dave, does the DashDaq have the ability to set of audible or visual alerts especially for sensors running in the background?

You can setup the DashDaq to do just about anything, it has an audible warning and a visual warning, you can even set it up to look a a specific signal and when it goes out of range you can have the DashDaq play a .wav file of your choice, so oil temps to high the DashDaq can actually say "OIL temp to high" or whatever you want to to say or just play a sound, or just flash a "WARNING" on the screen. You can change gauge color as a warning. If you go to YouTube and do a search for DashDaq there are lots of vids to see them in use.

This one is from a guy going over some of the features and show the audible warning and visual warning feature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoHaLTvXKHs&feature=related

There is a feature for monitoring gauges in the background, they work but you have to think outside the box to make them work correctly, it was really put in place to allow a default set of parrameters to be datalogged reguardless of what you see on the screen. The only bad thing about the DashDaq and OBDII NSX ECU is the update speeds from the ECU is not very fast, but the limitation is the OBDII standard not the DashDaq and any other scanner will have the same limitation. I use the OBDII data for things I cannot get any other way, like calculated load, fuel trims, or commanded spark. I use the Zeitronixs ZX2 to gather all the other signals I want to have a more real time responce from (60/sec), like RPM, Boost, Wideband O2, Throttle Possition, and Fuel Pressure.

Another thing you can do with the DashDaq is you can look at a sensor and apply a formula/calculation to the signal and then display the resulting calculated number in any form you want. You can almost do anything you can think of as long as you can do the math. It is sort of limitless.

Here is the bad thing about the DashDaq, becuase you can do just about anything, you have to do almost everything, there are some pre-installed themes to get you started, you can download their graphic editor and make any screen image and gauge style you want, but it will require lots of time and it is not what I would call point and click easy, you have to do the work to make it work. There is some good people using the DashDaq and they are willing to help/share their work. There are even a couple of guys that will design what you want and charge you for a completed product.

Dave

 

[DDozier]

So I could keep my base CTSC system, add a FIC, Meth, injectors and pump... with a good tune hopefully have more accuracy of AF and timing than the base system, cool AIT's down with meth on the track, and possibly up the boost to say 9PSI and be fine. That sounds like it can net quite a bit more power, and it would pass emissions. The CEL system of the factory ECU would still be functional for the most part, and it would be fairly cost effective compared to installing an intercooler/aftercooler, water pump, lines, heat exchanger, fans.

Add a DashDaq with a NAVpod, setup some warning parameters, and be good to go.

Is this right? Or is my math wrong... LOL

Wouldn't this setup even be able to pass in CA?

You are correct that is what the F/IC was designed to do, it will pass the plug in test for CA, but will not pass a visual test, so as long as you have the F/IC installed in a location were it will not be seen you should have no issues in CA.

 

[TURBO2GO]

You are correct that is what the F/IC was designed to do, it will pass the plug in test for CA, but will not pass a visual test, so as long as you have the F/IC installed in a location were it will not be seen you should have no issues in CA.

Just when I thought I was done with mods...

 

[DDozier]

Just when I thought I was done with mods...

Ha! it never ends, you just keep going, sell the car and buy another and it all starts over again. I have had 3 NSX's and have done CTSC, Twin Turbo's, and track only setups.

Dave

 

[RYU]

You can setup the DashDaq to do just about anything, it has an audible warning and a visual warning, you can even set it up to look a a specific signal and when it goes out of range you can have the DashDaq play a .wav file of your choice, so oil temps to high the DashDaq can actually say "OIL temp to high" or whatever you want to to say or just play a sound, or just flash a "WARNING" on the screen. You can change gauge color as a warning. If you go to YouTube and do a search for DashDaq there are lots of vids to see them in use.

This one is from a guy going over some of the features and show the audible warning and visual warning feature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoHaLTvXKHs&feature=related

There is a feature for monitoring gauges in the background, they work but you have to think outside the box to make them work correctly, it was really put in place to allow a default set of parrameters to be datalogged reguardless of what you see on the screen. The only bad thing about the DashDaq and OBDII NSX ECU is the update speeds from the ECU is not very fast, but the limitation is the OBDII standard not the DashDaq and any other scanner will have the same limitation. I use the OBDII data for things I cannot get any other way, like calculated load, fuel trims, or commanded spark. I use the Zeitronixs ZX2 to gather all the other signals I want to have a more real time responce from (60/sec), like RPM, Boost, Wideband O2, Throttle Possition, and Fuel Pressure.

Another thing you can do with the DashDaq is you can look at a sensor and apply a formula/calculation to the signal and then display the resulting calculated number in any form you want. You can almost do anything you can think of as long as you can do the math. It is sort of limitless.

Here is the bad thing about the DashDaq, becuase you can do just about anything, you have to do almost everything, there are some pre-installed themes to get you started, you can download their graphic editor and make any screen image and gauge style you want, but it will require lots of time and it is not what I would call point and click easy, you have to do the work to make it work. There is some good people using the DashDaq and they are willing to help/share their work. There are even a couple of guys that will design what you want and charge you for a completed product.

Dave

Honestly Dave... Holy Sh*T! This is the gauge setup i've been looking for. I don't mind the initial setup time. A guy like me actually welcome's it but I can see how some folks would like a plug'n'play solution.

One last question... I do see the harness for the AEM+DashDaq but is there a F/IC+DashDaq solution? I'm not sure if that's even possible since i'm still trying to get a grasp of exactly what sensors can one read from the OBD1 ECU and what does one need to add to get the F/IC (or AEM for that matter) running properly.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Dashdaq looks good but the screen is small. Dave did you look into these at all:

http://www.plxdevices.com/

It's the best I have seen so far. Ryu, sorry if I am derailing the thread a bit.

 

[RYU]

Also, how's the view under sunlight if the DashDaq was angled the same as the center console. In other words, do you have any experience with visibility under different viewing angles?

 

[RYU]

Dashdaq looks good but the screen is small. Dave did you look into these at all:

http://www.plxdevices.com/

It's the best I have seen so far. Ryu, sorry if I am derailing the thread a bit.

Np! I think we're at a point in this thread where people need to start data logging so perhaps we're still moving forward

Yes, that's probably the only minor complaint I have over the dashdaq. It would be great if it has a dedicated video output so it can display over a standard NSX NavPod cowl. Then again... there goes the touchscreen functionality.

It's still better than anything i've seen including the PLX for us OBD1 guys.

 

[DDozier]

Honestly Dave... Holy Sh*T! This is the gauge setup i've been looking for. I don't mind the initial setup time. A guy like me actually welcome's it but I can see how some folks would like a plug'n'play solution.

One last question... I do see the harness for the AEM+DashDaq but is there a F/IC+DashDaq solution? I'm not sure if that's even possible since i'm still trying to get a grasp of exactly what sensors can one read from the OBD1 ECU and what does one need to add to get the F/IC (or AEM for that matter) running properly.

On an OBDI-F/IC setup you will have to add all the sensors you want to display, there is no way to get any sensor data from the OEM OBDI ECU and no way to get data from an AEM F/IC to a gauge. You can get some data from the F/IC with a windows based PC/Laptop via a USB connection.

If you do a stand-a-lone AEM ECU and a DashDaq you will have full access to all the factory sensors via the AEM data stream. If my car was OBDI I would consider the stand-a-lone and Dashdaq as the prefered setup, but you have to have a good tuner near by to get the AEM ECU tuned right.

Dave

 

[TURBO2GO]

On an OBDI-F/IC setup you will have to add all the sensors you want to display,... If my car was OBDI I would consider the stand-a-lone and Dashdaq as the prefered setup, but you have to have a good tuner near by to get the AEM ECU tuned right.

Dave

Well Ryu can't do standalone because it's a street car. Using stand alone sensors may not be bad, as he won't have to deal with the OBDII latency. You are right, I have seen this delay... on some inputs it is not good.

As for the dashdaq size... I'm looking at that guage "cluster" and it is too small. Some of those screens look a little Tokyo-By-Night yo! and not something one can actually use. I suppose you can build your own.

 

[DDozier]

Dashdaq looks good but the screen is small. Dave did you look into these at all:

http://www.plxdevices.com/

It's the best I have seen so far. Ryu, sorry if I am derailing the thread a bit.

The PLX gauges are very cool, and I sell them as well, but they have some installation issues I do not like. they have input modules for each sensor that have to be hidden somewere in the car and the more you monitor the more modules you need, the more you have to hide.

DashDaq did a good comparison to PLX on their website, may be propaganda but it is worth the read.

http://www.dashdaq.com/specs/plx.htm

Dave

 

[RYU]

On an OBDI-F/IC setup you will have to add all the sensors you want to display, there is no way to get any sensor data from the OEM OBDI ECU and no way to get data from an AEM F/IC to a gauge. You can get some data from the F/IC with a windows based PC/Laptop via a USB connection.

If you do a stand-a-lone AEM ECU and a DashDaq you will have full access to all the factory sensors via the AEM data stream. If my car was OBDI I would consider the stand-a-lone and Dashdaq as the prefered setup, but you have to have a good tuner near by to get the AEM ECU tuned right.

Dave

Exactly my thoughts. After all this education I can see why the experts skip directly to an AEM standalone. You'll be getting a PM from again

 

[TURBO2GO]

Exactly my thoughts. After all this education I can see why the experts skip directly to an AEM standalone. You'll be getting a PM from again

Ryu, you have a secret plan come inspection time? Enlighten me because I prefer the EMS over a FIC.

 

[RYU]

Ryu, you have a secret plan come inspection time? Enlighten me because I prefer the EMS over a FIC.

I wish I did. I do know 12 friends who have 12 friends and one of those friends can help me out but i'm too old for that. I can take the risk of possibly sliding the visual portion of the test as long as the car passes the sniffer. If I recall, on OBD1 cars there is no OBD2 ECU plug the smog machine plugs into to check for internal CELs. So it's the old visual + load bearing "dyno" + sniffer parameters. I think a good AEM tune can pass with proper Cats. Is it worth the risk? I don't know. Is it worth the hassle? That's a decision i'll have to make at some point.

I'm at a crossroads right now because first and foremost in my project plan to lower AITs on the stock CT fueling provisions is to properly data log. Yet, one has to consider that i'll need to buy individual gauges to properly do so and all that adds up $$. I'll have to do a quick cost/benefit analysis on what the out of pocket costs will be if I just when to straight AEM. The DashDaq is very impressive!

 

[DDozier]

No laughing please! I just shot this 5 min ago and it is my first you tube video I have ever made, shot on an iPhone so vid quality is not great . . . I really do sound like a race car driver with all the excusses. Anyway here is a little video going over the DashDaq in my car.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cQGI42EHJyY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[TURBO2GO]

I'm looking at this list of OBDII parameters available on these devices... what is useful here? Not that much if you ask me.

Dave what are you using off the OBDII port that is useful?

*EDIT* just saw your video. Will it not fit in the factory NAVpod? Can you list what parameters you are using off OBDII and what you have the xyltronics or whatever for? You sell this stuff?

 

[DDozier]

I'm looking at this list of OBDII parameters available on these devices... what is useful here? Not that much if you ask me.

Dave what are you using off the OBDII port that is useful?

On an NSX the OBDII signals I use, TPS, RPM, Intake Air Temp, Timing Advance, Engine Coolant Temp, Calculated Load, Wheel speed sensor (for excelleration calculations done in the DashDaq), Long and short term fuel trims.

What I get from external sensors, RPM, Air Fuel Ratios bank 1 & 2, Fuel Presure, Vac/Boost MAP, IAT before and after intercooler, EGT bank 1 & 2, Oil Temp, Oil Presure and GPS data. I will be adding WTA coolant temp at the heat exchanger outlet, VAC/Boost MAP before the intercooler.

Most of the data you get from the OBDII ECU will be for tuning and diagnostics, a well as a simple way of reading and clearing any CEL you may get. The logging of all these signals is the single most important feature of the DashDaq, being able to pull all these signals into a single log file and compare everything at once is a serious time saver durring the tuning process. I do not know of another way to do that if that is your goal.

Most of these are not things you will use at the track, so I have a simple screen configured to show, AFR, BOOST, Fuel Presure, OIL Pressure while on the track, the other sensors I have are for the logging, tuning, and development of my Twin Turbo Setup.

Dave

 

[DDozier]

just saw your video. Will it not fit in the factory NAVpod? Can you list what parameters you are using off OBDII and what you have the xyltronics or whatever for? You sell this stuff?

I think the Factory NAV Pod is ugly, I wanted something that fit the dash better, used factory mounting points (no screws through the dash pad), and provided a shaded shroud for the display device for better visibility in direct sunlight. So this is what I came up with. The DashDaq viewing angle is adjustable by about +/-10 degrees in both horizontal and vertical directions, is held in place with magnetic mounts so it can be removed very easily to access the connections or SD card to get the log data out. It was the best solution to my many needs, may not be for everyone but for what I wanted it has been perfect.

I do sell gauges and electronics for automotive use, not my day job but my hobby has lead me in this direction, I own a low voltage electrical system design and installation company, but the car hobby has me doing tuning and system design work for a couple local shops all to support my own addiction with cars.

I can get almost anything automotive, but I have not tried to make a living out of the 12v side of my bussiness, just a very difficult way to make a living if you ask me. Hats off to Chris at SOS and Shad at Driving Ambition they apear to be able to make it work and I wish them the best but the margins in the 12v bussiness are getting to be non-existant. So the long and short is yes I will layout and sell you whatever parts you need to make your system work, if it is something that SOS or DA sells I would encourage you to use them, if it is something they do not sell I am more than willing to help as best I can.

Dave

 

[RYU]

Dave,

What brand external sensors do you use? All Zeitronix? It doesn't appear DashDaq sells individual external sensors and wondering what other sensors are compatible with their setup. Hoping to put together a grab bag of sorts to choose from.

By the way, agree with your philosophy on the 12v world. Much props to SoS, DA, AW, LF, and the other folks who are able to make it work. Oh, and thanks for the video!

 

[DDozier]

Dave,

What brand external sensors do you use? All Zeitronix? It doesn't appear DashDaq sells individual external sensors and wondering what other sensors are compatible with their setup. Hoping to put together a grab bag of sorts to choose from.

By the way, agree with your philosophy on the 12v world. Much props to SoS, DA, AW, LF, and the other folks who are able to make it work. Oh, and thanks for the video!

I am running two ZT-2's from Zeitronix's, mainly for dual AFR and the additional sensor inputs that the ZT-2 allows you to add. They offer a ZT-3 if you do not need the additional sensors and just want AFR, but spend the money for the ZT-2 in case you want to monitor some additional sensors in the future. Send me a PM with what you want to do to the car, and I will put together a gauge package that will all work together and can give you the pro's and con's of the setup.

Here is a basic layout of my gauge system, keep in mind this is for an OBDII setup with AEM stand-a-lone it will not look like this but will be close.

Dave

 

[TURBO2GO]

I was lost looking for sensors on their site too. Got a link on what we can pick from?

 

[DDozier]

I was lost looking for sensors on their site too. Got a link on what we can pick from?

Zeitronix has a good selection of sensors available, you can also look on AEM's website, but really as far as sensors you just need to know what you want to monitor then were you a going to install them.

http://www.zeitronix.com/order/order.htm

On any car going to the track I would add:
Oil Temp (and oil cooler)
Oil Presure (older cars will benifit from this more, but if it is in your site line it will be better than the stock gauge location)

On any FI car I would add:
AFR (at least one bank but best to have both)
Fuel Presure (a must if using the CT fuel system)
Boost (less important at the track but good for the street to have a snapshot of overall system health, and to see belt clip on CTSC)

As you can see there are a lot of things you can monitor and if you did them all with traditional gauges you would have pillar pods and dash pods and gauges everywhere in the car, not ideal for the average street/track guy. You need to think about placement as well, for the street the ashtray location is OK for the track it is pointless, you only have one or two places on a track that would safely let you look down to the ashtray location to check your gauges, you want them to be in your normal siteline when driving without being in the way. That really only leaves a couple of locations. You can make a dash pod, putting them on the dash, you can use the factory NAV pod location, the pillar pods are a good choice, and propably the best location is above the rear view mirror as you will be checking the mirror multiple times as you move around the track (unless you have 500+ whp, then you never have to look back :smile: )

I think we have moved well past the original intent of this thread, so if you guys want to discuss gauges in general, PM me or we can start another thread to get more detailed.

Dave

 

[RYU]

I found an article on Import Tuner on a Water Injected NA2 CTSC low boost car. Tuned by our own Jon Kuroyama albeit with an F-Con Pro. A good read if you're following this thread.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/imp...performance_stage_2_boost_cooler/viewall.html