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Michelin Pilot Sport Cup vs. Toyo RA-1

Joined
1 April 2005
Messages
37
Location
Cranston, RI
Wasn't certain if this was more fitting here or on the Tire/Wheel forum, but...

Kumho no longer makes the V700 in the sizes I need, nor does Dunlop. Hoosiers are great, of course, but only when I tow the car to the track.

For DE events, any opinions from those who have used both?
 
CCMDoc said:
Wasn't certain if this was more fitting here or on the Tire/Wheel forum, but...

Kumho no longer makes the V700 in the sizes I need, nor does Dunlop. Hoosiers are great, of course, but only when I tow the car to the track.

For DE events, any opinions from those who have used both?

One data point- I saw a set of cup's off Frank's track-rat NSX at PIR on one of the last open days of last season, and he noted as well as showed us first hand in his trailer a good number of sets of spent rubber.. he had seensignificantly better tire wear with the Cup's than with the RA1's and Hoosiers.

We both run the exact same alignment specs which is relatively aggressive, and it does seem as if he got a lot of DE days in with that set of cups. Unfortunately for me the cups aren't available in my required sizes at this point.
 
John@Microsoft said:
One data point- I saw a set of cup's off Frank's track-rat NSX at PIR on one of the last open days of last season, and he noted as well as showed us first hand in his trailer a good number of sets of spent rubber.. he had seensignificantly better tire wear with the Cup's than with the RA1's and Hoosiers.

We both run the exact same alignment specs which is relatively aggressive, and it does seem as if he got a lot of DE days in with that set of cups. Unfortunately for me the cups aren't available in my required sizes at this point.

Thanks John. Did you or he get a sense of grip & handling differences between the two? Any experience with either in the wet?
Again, my thanks.
 
Personaly I like the ra-1 better.I used the pilots on my s2000 for track and ra1 on the bee.The pilots get greasier on hot days and take a few more laps to get consistant.They vary in grip during a 30 min session more than the ra1's which to me are a very consistant tire all day.At near full tread both tires were about the same on wet days.
 
CCMDoc said:
Thanks John. Did you or he get a sense of grip & handling differences between the two? Any experience with either in the wet?
Again, my thanks.

For DE days, it's probably hard to beat a treaded RA1 in the wet. Toyo makes a good wet tire.

I don't recall the day to day conditions and all of the details to the conversation that day, this was late last year.

I believe he was comparing them to the hoosiers as his HPDE tire bill was getting high with them. I'm not sure of his prime handle, one of the other NW members might be able to chime in with it so you can talk to him directly..
 
I'd personallt take the PSC anytime over the RA-1s.

From the Tirerack site:

info

Tire Survey Results

Reviews:

1993 Porsche RS America
Miles driven on tires: 1,000
Reviewer's Overall Rating:

8.875
Location: Peoria, Il

Driving Condition:
All Highway
Driving Style: Spirited



These are track tires only. I replaced Toyo RA-1s with the Pilot Sport Cups. Once you get the pressures right (go to the Michelin website and believe them) these are far superior to the RA-1s. They are peaky, but you have to trust them, there is plenty more there than you think. I would say the RA-1s were more linear. The Cups wear very well. I have 6 days on them and they will easily get 6 more. Very good value. My lap times are 3-4 seconds faster with these tires at Road America and Blackhawk. You cant go wrong with Michelin quality. -- Review Submitted 2006-02-11

1992 Porsche 911 Carrera 2 Coupe
Miles driven on tires: 500
Reviewer's Overall Rating:

7.714
Location: Frisco, TX

Driving Condition:
Combined Highway/City
Driving Style: Spirited



When reading these reviews its often difficult to know the experience level of the author to know how qualified their opinion is. Im a Porsche Club of America (PCA) member of nearly 10 years and I import Euro spec Porsches into the US and have personally owned rare (sometimes first into the US) models such as the 964 RS Clubsport that Ive raced, a 993RS street car, and recently a GT3 Clubsport. Ive got nearly 30 races of experience at tracks like Laguna Seca, Mosport, Road Atlanta, Daytona, and dozens more. I say this only to give you a sense of my experience with high performance driving. Now on to the tires. Ive driven Kuhmo, Hoosier (S03 & S04), Goodyear, and Toyo on the track. Theres no question that the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup is the best DOT rated tire money can buy for track use. I have won at Watkins Glen and Mosport on sunny tracks that turn into downpours and when the other guys pit to change to rain tires, I keep driving with confidence on my Pilot Sports. Ive traded notes with dozens of Porsche drivers and all of us that got burned with Hoosier S04 tires that blistered have permanently changed to MPSCs and theyre unbeatable. Are they a bit more expensive -- not when you consider that for 10% more money you get a tire (unlike Hoosier) that will run 2-3 weekends (thats 20+ sessions) before loosing their grip. The Hoosiers are good for 1 weekend and even on Day 2, you notice the grip going away. Wanna get caught rain in Hoosiers? No way -- not with only 2 rain channels. Theres a reason that Michelin tires are more expensive -- theyre unbeatable in their designed environment. I run the Pilot Sport AVS on my Mercedes E55 and that car will handle like any 911 in the corners with no body roll. These tires are sensitive to air pressure -- run them at 35-36 hot and theyll never let you down. Let them get over 40 pounds and they get slippery -- no different than any other tire (you need to watch air temps). I heartily endorse these ti -- Review Submitted 2005-10-13


1995 Porsche 911 Carrera 2 Coupe
Miles driven on tires: 5
Reviewer's Overall Rating:

8.125
Location: Baltimore, MD

Driving Condition:
Mostly Highway
Driving Style: Spirited



I do PCA DEs and club races with these tires. Yes, they need lots of heat to work properly, so you have to drive the heck out of them to get them up to temp. I can get 50 or so heat cycles out of them before they lose grip. I wish they were cheaper (I wish for a lot of things) but theyre a better value than the Hoosiers. Unfortunately, theyre not as sticky as the Hoosiers. In the rain, I use full-tread Toyo RA-1s, so I have only driven these tires a few times in the wet. Standing water is an eye-opening experience but what else would you expect with a tread that looks like this? -- Review Submitted 2005-09-14
 
I have never tried the sport cup tires so I can’t comment on this part. I do like the pilot sport street tires. I also like the RA-1’s over the Kumo’s for Quality longevity with an emphasis on quality over tread life (Not necessarily price). Hoosier by far makes a better wet and dry tire that will cost you more to run. The hands down best tire in the wet is the new Hoosier Wet tire, unfortunately they don’t offer a wide range of sizes yet but I would compromise size and chose this tire over any on the market. The V pattern is aggressive and works in a different category better then any other tire in the rain. Literally if you have them and your competition doesn’t, they will bow to your god like driving ability as you lap them all. Seriously they are a newer technology that is in a different category. I have two relevant stories- I know of a competitor who was disqualified because he won using these tires in a class where you could use any off the shelf brand. Unfortunate for him they were so new that his loosing competitors were able to prove that though they were in fact un-modified tires, they were not available enough for the entire field to get them from any of the U.S. vendors. The second story is from a friend who went to a DE in the rain and used my old Grand-Am wets (Grand-am is the pilot test bed for future Hoosier tires), he bragged of that superiority over his local peers and that god like status.
 
Thanks apapada. I had read those reviews on the TireRack site and just wanted a bit more info if anyone had experience with both brands. I got a chuckle reading the review from the guy who said of the Cups "They're black and round, otherwise bear no resemblance to tires ..."

Both seem to need more heating up to develop grip compared with Hoosiers and even Kumhos. It seems that RA-1s get the nod for wet performance while the Cups for longevity. For me it will probably come down to whether I want to have a front tire that is 1cm wider and a hair taller than OEM (245/40-17 vs. 235/40-17) or a rear that is 2cm narrower and a hair shorter than OEM (275/35-18 vs. 295/35-18).

Thanks all for your comments and experiences.
 
I haven't driven on the Pilot Sport Cups, but a couple of bits of information which might be helpful...

Regarding treadlife, I haven't yet finished off a set of RA-1, but based on the wear so far, it looks like they will last about as long as my A032R did - about 1500 track miles plus another 500 street miles between the tracks and the hotels. Which IMO is darn good.

If you're looking for a place to get Toyos, click here.

My recommendation? These are track tires. They wear out quickly. Try one; when it wears out, try the other one. Then you can tell us which one you prefer.

CCMDoc said:
For me it will probably come down to whether I want to have a front tire that is 1cm wider and a hair taller than OEM (245/40-17 vs. 235/40-17) or a rear that is 2cm narrower and a hair shorter than OEM (275/35-18 vs. 295/35-18).
Those are not OEM sizes...
 
nsxtasy said:
My recommendation? These are track tires. They wear out quickly. Try one; when it wears out, try the other one. Then you can tell us which one you prefer.

Those are not OEM sizes...

Thanks for the advice, experience and link. Your right, the beauty :rolleyes: of tires is that they wear out giving you the chance to try something else.

As far as OEM sizes, in fact for V8 Esprit, Dunlop SP 9000 in 235/40-17 and 285/35-18 or optional (stock on Sport 350) Pirelli P-Zero in 235/40-17 and 295/35-18 were offered from the factory.
 
CCMDoc said:
As far as OEM sizes, in fact for V8 Esprit, Dunlop SP 9000 in 235/40-17 and 285/35-18 or optional (stock on Sport 350) Pirelli P-Zero in 235/40-17 and 295/35-18 were offered from the factory.
Sorry, didn't realize you were talking about a car other than the NSX.
 
nsxtasy said:
Sorry, didn't realize you were talking about a car other than the NSX.

Should have mentioned the car in my original post :redface:
 
Thanks for all of the advice and souces for tires. Went with RA-1s and got them from Todd at Frisby per Ken's recommendation. Great price and will be shipping out today.

Again thanks.
 
Will you be shaving the RA1s?

I was talking to AIM here at Infineon today and they said if you will drive to the track back and forth, they don't recommend shaving them to 4/32. They also don't think that heat cycling them before getting on the track is that crucial. By the way, their pricing is great for locals who can pick them at the track.
 
Hrant said:
Will you be shaving the RA1s?

I was talking to AIM here at Infineon today and they said if you will drive to the track back and forth, they don't recommend shaving them to 4/32. They also don't think that heat cycling them before getting on the track is that crucial. By the way, their pricing is great for locals who can pick them at the track.

Nope - for that very reason and because I will use them in the wet and Hoosiers in the dry when I tow the car to the track.
 
Heat cycling - an easy heat cycle (not getting them up to track type temperatures) - is a good idea for track tires, including the RA-1, for the reasons described on the Tire Rack website. And even if you're buying tires at the Tire Rack (which Paul isn't), you really don't need to pay extra for it, since it's so easy to do yourself. Just throw the wheels/tires on the car, take it out on the highway for at least 20 miles or so, then take the wheels/tires off the car and let them sit a couple of days. This does the same thing as the Tire Rack's heat cycling service.

FWIW, I do not get my RA-1's shaved (although Frisby can shave tires, if you're interested). But I do heat cycle them (by driving them home from Frisby, which is about 30 miles away).
 
nsxtasy said:
Heat cycling - an easy heat cycle (not getting them up to track type temperatures) - is a good idea for track tires, including the RA-1, for the reasons described on theTire Rack website.
But I do heat cycle them (by driving them home from Frisby, which is about 30 miles away).

Ken, again thanks for the tip with Frisby. I do the same- the benefit of having a few sets of wheels.
For any interested parties in the Northeast, here is a brief list of DE events in the coming months:
3/17-18 Lime Rock Park with CVR chapter of PCA http://www.pca.org/news/calendar.asp
3/27 - LRP - SCDA http://www.scda1.com/
4/8-4/9 - NHIS - COM http://www.comscc.org/
4/13 NHIS - WMC BMWCCA http://www.wmc-bmwcca.org/index.asp
4/24 - NHIS - SCDA
5/1-5/2 WGI SCDA
5/4 NHIS Boston Chapter BMWCCA http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/
5/12 LRP SCDA
5/30 NHIS - SCDA

A few others in between that I can't seem to find at the moment.
 
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