What are you guys finding out that you either had to or should have changed before or after a FI install i.e. clutch, head gaskets etc. I'm only thinking about low 400s or high 300s not the 5-600hp guys. I'm hearing clutch but also hear the aftermarket clutches have their own problems.
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Mods Needed with/after forced induction
- Thread starter BobK
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If you are going to change the cluctch get the SOS sport clutch nothing bud great reviews with close to stock pedal pressure. Many upgrade brakes, headgasket, there is the MLS gasket on SOS but did hear about one leaking after install, think it needs to be retorqued after a bit. Can ask Chris at SOS. Also you could get a thicker head gasket to reduce compression ratio which would be good if you are FI for minimal cost. Headers and exhaust come to mind.
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I would say to anyone who has there heads off if you are installing an SC or Turbo go ahead and put in time certs. A clutch is needed also I have a Clutch master stage 3 with very low HRS if you are staying under 400 to 425HP. $500 OBO.
Depending on how many miles your car has I would seriously consider changing out your pistons cause it's really not a matter of if but more like when. I would def do a set of ARP head studs with the MLS gaskets as well. And you will also need to upgrade your injectors as well.
Changing out pistons for 400rwhp???
Uhmmmm.....until you've blown a motor you just can't understand. And yes the ringlands on my stock motor blew out @just under 400HP
What others mention is not necessary (rather of a safe haven for the futher *if any*)
Piston is no no if you're just looking for 450hp or under from personal experience. Even ARP studs to head gasket is not needed for that low power plant. As far as clutch, it'll be a good idea, but you might just wait until your stock clutch is bout to wear out before any changes.
I ran 380hp for some time on stock clutch before retuning the car to 450. All I really did was the clutch upgrade just to be on the safe side, but really think I didnt have to. No stud, head gasket none what so ever.
I am planning in the near future to retune the car on stock setup with meth injection and in hopes on reaching over 500hp. Maybe next summer... hehehe.:biggrin:
Piston is no no if you're just looking for 450hp or under from personal experience. Even ARP studs to head gasket is not needed for that low power plant. As far as clutch, it'll be a good idea, but you might just wait until your stock clutch is bout to wear out before any changes.
I ran 380hp for some time on stock clutch before retuning the car to 450. All I really did was the clutch upgrade just to be on the safe side, but really think I didnt have to. No stud, head gasket none what so ever.
I am planning in the near future to retune the car on stock setup with meth injection and in hopes on reaching over 500hp. Maybe next summer... hehehe.:biggrin:
First - It all comes down to the tuner in my opinion. An aggressive race tune on a stock motor in hopes of huge power plant is bound to have something snap.
Second - The owner is also the problem that causes the car to start having issue. I personal know a handful of ppls in town with full built (supra,rx7,etc) drive as if there's no tomorrow. Foots always heavy on the pedal. I know two brothers with mkiv. One with a single turbo built bottom end and dyno almost 6. His younger brother with the stock twins bpu+++ dyno mid 4. Younger bro always having issue with motor (keep in mind - two different tuner and two different owners *one drive with respect, other one is careless*)
just my.02centNot to hi jack the thread...
I drove around in a civic coupe with a stock b20 block and head **turbo** tuned on hondata s300 with 430hp for years with no issue. NOTE: bought a complete total wreck car with 250k miles on it and straight to my civic othing done to it. So is the b20 high mileage 4 banger better built than a c30 6 banger? That 4 cyl handles more power/stress?
civic:430hp/4cyl=107.5hp per cylinder
nsx:451hp/6cyl=75.16hp per cylinder
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If the car is bone stock you will benefit from headers and exhaust.
You may need this to get to 400 rwhp as the stock exhaust is restrictive.
You clutch may become an issue. Driver has a big influence on this.
rev and dump won't last long. I wouldn't bother until is goes out.
Later,
Don
You may need this to get to 400 rwhp as the stock exhaust is restrictive.
You clutch may become an issue. Driver has a big influence on this.
rev and dump won't last long. I wouldn't bother until is goes out.
Later,
Don
My turbo installer made me a great price to R&R the clutch so I ordered one from SOS and will have it installed with the turbo. I would probably have needed it anyway down the line and I'm saving a bunch of money doing it now.
I'm making 405rwhp with factory cats and supporting mods in my sig.
Original clutch is holding out nice. No issues.
My only issues is lack of traction in the lower gears.
I really don't understand why the experienced guys say that my current RWHP is a sweet spot for a street fairing NSX. Anything beyond that is just silly tire spinning.....
Lot of us on stock pistons around here. Im making 440 rwhp. The tune can literally make or break you. Pistons are perfectly fine with the proper tune. As Chris from SOS has told me before. The stock pistions are fine with the right tune at 450 rwhp, but with a bad tune they will not last in those conditions vs forged etc.
Between the "import piston" forums and the "domestic" forums I find that the import guys don't really know what causes their engines to KABOOM.
They seem to confuse increased dynamic pressures with detonation in pistons (for example).
In other words, more boost equals greater dynamic pressures and therefore power density. If the piston were to fail from that then we can say that it may be the limit of the HP of the piston.
If the piston fails from detonation due to a bad tune or lack thereof, then it's just that and not the limit of what the piston/engine can handle.
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Well, I'm "only" looking to get around 400-430 rwhp and have a very experienced tuner so I feel I will be fine.
let us know of your result when you're done! :biggrin:
Everyone seems to have developed opinions based on what they read...lol. The first motor that I blew the ring lands on was tuned by Jeff Evans...one of the most reputable tuners for Honda products in the Northeast...Google his name. I am simply giving advise based on my personal experiences. I learned that if you address all the issues the first time.....you only take your motor out one time...if you are lucky.To compare a stock NSX motor to a Stock Supra motor is absurd. A stock Supra bottom end is good to 600 wheel if memory serves me. To be totally honest if $1000 set of pistons is gonna break the budget I would suggest rethinking your project with the NSX. After you send your block to California to get re sleeved that 1k won't seem so expensive after all. If you do a search here you can read the horror stories of all the blown motors.There are plenty of stock motors out there with higher hp numbers but I'll bet there are just as many that pushed that envelope and lost. and 400 is only where it starts...lol. Boost is like crack...my current build in progress should put down around 800 wheel on pump with meth. Take my advise for whatever you think it's worth...I have the receipts to sadly be able to say I learned the hard way.
Stock MKIV seems to handle more than 600rwhp with a proper tune. I've seen this at dyno events a few years ago.
Clutch. My oem one went after 1 month. Love my RPS billet with lightened flywheel.
Take a driving school too
Take a driving school too
What kit and tuner are you going with.....
Mase Engineering out of Jacksonville Fl. He custom builds and installs and tailors it to what you want and includes a watercooled intercooler and tunes on his own dyno. He is picking up the car tomorrow.
Bob,
You are in good hands with Mase. We partnered up for Golf last week at Bella Collina. He is an encyclopedia of information. Just listen to him and do whatever he says.
One thing he did tell me is that there is a movement with installers now to use smaller turbos on our cars. I have a 67mm and the boost comes on very nicely at 4000 and then slams you back at 5000rpm's. The turbo's on the latest kits are generally 61mm and even down to 58mm range. With those smaller turbo's, you can spool up to maximum boost as low at 3500 rpm's.
Tonight I'm heading out to the local dragstrip. The weather is cool and sunny so we will see what my car can pull in the 1/4 mile.
Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are in good hands with Mase. We partnered up for Golf last week at Bella Collina. He is an encyclopedia of information. Just listen to him and do whatever he says.
One thing he did tell me is that there is a movement with installers now to use smaller turbos on our cars. I have a 67mm and the boost comes on very nicely at 4000 and then slams you back at 5000rpm's. The turbo's on the latest kits are generally 61mm and even down to 58mm range. With those smaller turbo's, you can spool up to maximum boost as low at 3500 rpm's.
Tonight I'm heading out to the local dragstrip. The weather is cool and sunny so we will see what my car can pull in the 1/4 mile.
Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes Brian, we will be using one of the newer generation ball bearing turbos with smaller wheels. I'm really pumped to see how well it will run. After driving Nabil's 360hp supercharged car I can't wait to get mine which should have at least another 40hp. Let us know how the car runs. Try to post one of your time slips it would be interesting to see how it 60 foots.
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Hey Bob,
Let me know how the build is going. I am only 10 minutes from MASE so I can stop in and check on the car at any time if you are wondering whats up.
Brian, looking forward to your time slips. I am thinking you should be in the 120MPH for the trap.
Let me know how the build is going. I am only 10 minutes from MASE so I can stop in and check on the car at any time if you are wondering whats up.
Brian, looking forward to your time slips. I am thinking you should be in the 120MPH for the trap.
Thanks Dave, Steve is picking the car up tomorrow but is leaving the country shortly to due some tuning in Europe and they haven't ordered the parts yet so I don't think the build will begin until after Christmas.
As you someone who has gone through two motors (in 10 years of ownership) .... I share your pain and deleted saving account. My motors were not even FI back then so I think some of this has to do with luck. Many CT SC engines have been run with many miles in the 350-370rwhp range with success. I think the key is the tune, esp the richness in the CT case.
Some tuners tune FI cars around 12 to 12.5 and this can lead to problems. Hondata stated on their website that they observed cars running leaner on the street then on the dyno. Due to my bad motor luck, I data log every run in my SOS intercooled supercharged car. I have found my car will hit at certain rpms 12.1 (3330-3700) and (4900-5300). I have since adjusted my iat fuel tables at high temps to reduce the fuel pull (saw that some heat soak caused my car to lean to 12.5 briefly in those spots before the temps returned to norm) and added 2% fuel at the above rpm levels at the correct load points.
I was originally tuned around 11.8 so if I can experience leaning due to being on the road vs dyno, plus heat soak and other weather, altitude issues what about those people tuned very aggressive? Unless you can monitor your tune and be able to get it changed to reflect the changing conditions, you are probably better off getting it tuned to very low 11s.
A dyno is ideal conditions. Data logging your car on the road (during different season) is the best way to ensure your air fuel ratio is correct and all the fuel corrections ie iat tables are in order as well.
I was getting a knock volt of 1 to 1.5 (sometimes) in those areas and now I don't. I also have my knock fuel add (max +5%) and ignition retard (max -5.11) enabled on my AEM. I know some people don't.
Also changed my spark plugs from iridium to v-power copper with stock .35 gap (also lowered my knock reading slightly).
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