Here we go again...
They are 2 different players with different playing styles. MJ played in an era where defense wasn't as important and there are nowhere near the amount of highly skilled players as there are now. As for getting shutdown, Kobe averaged 25.7 points in the Boston series that they lost, that is not being shutdown IMO. Give credit to Boston's defense, they threw the kitchen sink at him and made him less productive than usual and the reason they lost is the fact that the rest of the team was not stepping up and were outplayed physically. Boston beat LA up. In 2004, he averaged 22.4 in the Detroit series against one of the best defensive teams in history. That's not shutdown either. If you want to discredit him for his team's effort, let's be fair and bring up Jordan and his stint with the Washington Wizards.
Played in an era where defense wasn't important? Defense during the late 80's to mid 90's was basically jungle ball and you could get away with murder. You didn't need to focus on it because it was already very physical.
Jordan scored 63 points against Boston in the 86
playoffs, and averaged 43.7 ppg, 5.7 apg, and 6.3 rpg for the three games series. That is unreal, especially since Boston at the time was a power house.
Jordan averaged higher points at a time when the league averaged higher points. Defense has been getting so tough that David Stern had to change the rules so that you could score more. MJ never scored 81, not even close IMO at 69 and it took him 50 minutes to do that and it took Kobe under 42 minutes to get his 81. And Kobe could have outdone the 81 on that night and other nights. Does anyone remember when he single-handedly outscored the Mavericks after only 3 quarters by HIMSELF 62-61? Coach Alvin Gentry after the Phoenix series called him the greatest finisher in the NBA ever, ahead of MJ.
He changed the rules to score more? Dude you don't make sense, Jordan was scoring absurd amounts during the regular season and playoffs prior to the rule changes.
Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.
Kobe's 81 was against a sorry Raptors teams. Jordan put down 69 against Cleveland and 63 against Boston in the playoffs. Kobe doesn't compare during the playoffs. If you were to put Jordan at his prime in the NBA now, he would destroy the 81 mark easily. Kobe would not have scored 63 against Boston, the physical play would have shaken him.
So it's not absurd to put him up there with or past MJ but there will never be another MJ either. He was a special player at just the right time and the first true hero and almost universally loved player that also commands an enterprise for himself. I grew up idolizing MJ. Nowadays, any good player has legions of haters, I don't remember that situation with MJ so much but it was a different era. Kinda like Arnold Palmer whom everyone loved and now we have Tiger Woods who is a better player and even before his scandal wasn't completely loved in the same way. MJ was more gifted physically, better & bigger hands, higher vertical, better build. Kobe on the other hand shoots better (with both hands) and has better agility and a wider array of shots.
This is one of the biggest debates in basketball right now and there's a reason for that...
It is absurd to put Kobe up there with Jordan. People forget how much Jordan accomplished during his career. The only thing one could argue possiby is Kobe may have a better 3-pt shot but even than, we will have to wait til the end of his career to determine that.
The legacy of Kobe will be cemented in the next 2-3 years.
If he wins no more rings he will be remembered as a great superstar and the best non-big man of his generation.
Most likely scenario.
Lets not forget Kobe's and MJ's contribution to our world has been to play basketball well. A sport meant to entertain. They didn't do it for a noble cause, they did it while they were paid extremely well and treated like royalty. I think MJ was possibly the best ever, but I think he is kind of an ass. I think the same of Kobe. At the very least, he cheated on his wife and then made up for it by buying her a $16,000 ring.
I like watching basketball and arguing with you guys, because it is fun, but not for one second do I ever think that either of these guys is in any way better than the poor guy who busts his balls working at a local soup kitchen to help others. No one knows that guy, he has no money, no one asks for his signature, but he gives more to the world that he lives in than a basketball star does.
"Star"... "superstar"...."all star".... I find it comical sometimes that we reserve these words for people who do nothing but play a sport well. It's not like they are a Ghandi, a Mother Teresa, or a Martin Luther King. They just dribble a ball well.
What does this have to do with the discussion at hand?
You are right TURBO2GO but in all of human history ...... they are what humans put on a pedestal. The gladiators of Rome, the Greek olympic athletes, the Saxxon/Spartan warriors ...... all fit that model of human exceptionalism which invokes emotions that endears them in a good or negative way.
The guy or gal down the street is normal, average and neither excites or titillates.
Ghandi, a Mother Teresa, or a Martin Luther King are on the opposite end of the same spectrum. They have the human exceptionalism of convention in the face of overwhelming odds.
We admire those we deem greater than ourselves (even if it is just one aspect) ..... because they can do something we (and for the most part our peers) can't or will not do.
Most people keep their heads down and follow the herd ...... these "superstars" if you will don't.
Again, no one within this debate was praising either of the two for their off-court humanitarian contributions. How does this factor within a basketball debate?
Better shooter doesn't mean you shoot a higher percentage. MJ improved his shooting toward the later stages of his career. By your argument Shaq would be a better shooter than MJ! I've seen Kobe make fade away 3 pointers with his left hand. Michael drives to the basket better and gets easier baskets. Kobe can drive, though not as well, but he chooses to get his baskets outside and the degree of difficulty in his shots is higher. His ability to make difficult shots is also better than MJ.
Congrats, you win for the most point-less arguments within this thread. What does degree of difficulty within shot selection have to do with winning games?
NOTHING. If you think Jordan didn't take difficult shots, please go to youtube and watch some of his highlights.
If what you say is true, how do you explain the scoring decline over the last 20 years? It has been because of the rules favoring defense, not because the players can't score. Average PPG in 1984 was 110.8. In 1994 it declined to 93.4!
Your point about him being an all-star shows how little you know about bball. All-stars and MVPs are equally popularity contests as they are real awards.
Please, educate yourself on basketball before you act like a pompous ass to others.
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/
Since 1990, the NBA has instituted a series of rules changes to increase the offensive player's flow and make physical play costly. First came increased penalties for flagrant fouls (1990) and fighting (1993), the implementation of the "five points" rule that called for automatic suspensions of players who amassed a certain number of flagrants (1993). Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.
In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.
The MVP selection is not by any means a popularity vote, shows how much you
REALLY know about basketball.
