• Protip: Profile posts are public! Use Conversations to message other members privately. Everyone can see the content of a profile post.

Need advice on 401k. Which is the best course of action?

Joined
11 July 2002
Messages
2,420
Location
Orange County, CA
Actually it's more like 403k since I worked for the state. I recently quit my job after 6.5 years and I am fully vested with this company. A couple of days after my date of termination, I get a letter from the investment company saying to call a representative urgently because my status of employment has changed.

Long story short, the rep gave me 2 options as to what I want to do with the money:

1. Keep it with my former employer and roll it over to the next employer.
2. Open my own traditional IRA account with this investment company and start fresh with the next employer.

This was my first real job and I don't have experience with this. The rep advised to go with option #2 so I would have full control of what happens to my retirement money instead of my former employer.

I'm thinking he's saying this so he could make sure the money stays with them in case my former employer switches different investment companies. But I keep hearing that people just keep rolling over their 401k from one employer to the next. But the rep says I could do that but the new company wouldn't be doing any matches with the money that's rolled over.

How about another option I just thought of...
3. Take all that money and open a traditional IRA with my bank (who I trust more since I've been with them for a long time)?
 
no advice, but note the matching part you were told is irrelevant. the money is matched at the time it is deposited in the account, it has nothing to do with the money already in the account (as you are fully vested).
 
You can do any of the above, including opening an IRA with your bank. Just make sure you roll the money over within 60 days of the distribution so you don't have to pay taxes on it.

As far as which option to do, it really depends. Where do you want to keep your money invested? If you like the investment options at your previous employer, and they don't have extraordinarily high investment expense fees, you can keep your 401k there. This is a perfectly viable option. Again, you are limited to the investments that they offer, but as long as you like those, there's no reason not to keep it there. You still have the same control over the funds that you would elsewhere, with the ability to switch among investments, etc.

If you roll it into a separate IRA, with your bank or an investment company, you then have the ability to select whatever investments you want for that IRA. Perhaps you want to invest it in something that is not available through your 401k (e.g. real estate); you could do it in your IRA.

A couple of additional considerations and thoughts...

1. I believe you can only roll over funds from one account to another once a year. So if you are considering a different investment for these funds but you're not sure what you want to do with them, you might want to leave them in the 401k for now. If you roll them into an IRA, they must sit in that IRA, with whatever investments are available (with that investment co, bank, etc), until next year, at which time you could roll them into something else.

2. The expense fees charged by the investment company to individuals holding IRA accounts with them are likely to be higher than they charge to your former employer for the 401k. So it is probably advantageous to them, but not to you, to move your funds from your 401k to an IRA with them.

3. If you're considering an IRA with your bank, ask what investment options are available. If the money goes into an IRA certificate of deposit, for example, you can't then move it in and out of various stock mutual funds without penalties.

I've usually left my 401k money from prior employers in those accounts, and still have them. As long as the employer isn't in any financial difficulty, there's no reason to worry about them. (If the employer goes bankrupt, the retirement accounts may still be safe, but even if they are, it may become a PITA to contact them to get your money transferred out.)

note the matching part you were told is irrelevant. the money is matched at the time it is deposited in the account, it has nothing to do with the money already in the account (as you are fully vested).
Rob is correct. Note that the matching at the time of the deposit into the account refers only to new money going into the retirement account; rollovers from other employers are not eligible for matching.

If you like the investment options at the new employer, and you don't need to roll the money over elsewhere, feel free to roll the money into the new employer's 401k if you like. (If you are not immediately eligible to contribute to the 401k at the new employer - some employers make you wait 90 days or even a year - I would wait until you start contributing before rolling the other funds over to there.)
 
Thanks for the quick replies. Ken, I do like the investment options with my former employer as it includes real estate. However, I've been told that I can't put any more money in the account since I'm not working for them anymore. So at this time, the only option I have is to be able to switch investments?
 
Option 2 - but with the caveat that you don't need to open account with that brokerage - you can roll into a new account anywhere of your own choosing and either have it manged or directly under your own control (either way you still get to call the shots)

I guess that's your option 3.

This is the ONLY opportunity you get to get full control of your tax deferred investement, otherwise someone else is limiting your choices to ONLY the funds that they offer within your plans portfolio.

With an IRA you control, you even have the opportunity to still invest in the same funds that previous or future employers' plans offer - or additionally also unlimited other personal choices you may prefer.

As others stated the match thing is moot.
 
Ken is correct, but you also need to understand that if you roll the assets into a "traditional ira", you're doing it wrong, you need to roll them to an "IRA Rollover"account in order to preserve your ability to transfer it to your new employer's plan if you so choose to. If you use a traditional, "contributory" plan, you will lose the separate identity of these assets, and the ability to roll it into the new employer's plan if you so choose to.
 
How about another option I just thought of...
3. Take all that money and open a traditional IRA with my bank (who I trust more since I've been with them for a long time)?

Make sure to check out the fees at your bank. Banks are typically expensive places to keep an IRA -- you'd do better with a well-known discount brokerage.

After you get your money into an IRA, you may want to investigate converting it to a Roth IRA, if you qualify.
 
I do like the investment options with my former employer as it includes real estate. However, I've been told that I can't put any more money in the account since I'm not working for them anymore.
That's correct. You can't add funds to your existing 401k account with your former employer. Any new contributions you make must be to a new account with your new employer.

So at this time, the only option I have is to be able to switch investments?
I'm not sure what you're asking. If you like the investment options for your existing 401k account with your former employer, then just leave those funds there. You will still be able to switch them around from one investment option to another within that account. (Or, you can roll those funds over, out of the employer's account, either into a new IRA account - thanks for the clarification Roger, an IRA rollover account is advisable - or into your new 401k.

In any case, you will need to set up a separate 401k account with your new employer for new contributions. You can then switch those funds (from new contributions and anything you roll over) among whatever investment options that fund offers.
 
..... I do like the investment options with my former employer as it includes real estate....
If their portfolio manager can buy this asset so can you in an individual account. There are probably a lot more RE funds to choose from than just the one your current manager selected.
 
If their portfolio manager can buy this asset so can you in an individual account.
The advantage of leaving it in the 401k is that their transaction fees for any transfers of funds between investments are likely to be significantly lower than you would experience in an individual account.

There are probably a lot more RE funds to choose from than just the one your current manager selected.
The advantage of an individual account is that you can select just about any investment for your funds.

Your choice...
 
From tomorrow's Chicago Tribune...

Changing jobs? Study options for 401(k)
Standing pat, rolling into new company's plan or opening up an IRA each has pros and cons

Janet Kidd Stewart

Your Money columnist

Posted January 21, 2007

By now you've probably been lectured on the perils of cashing out your 401(k) retirement plan when you leave a job.

You'll pay income taxes and possibly a 10 percent early withdrawal penalty (there are a few exceptions). Plus, using the money today means you'll be that much further behind in reaching your retirement goal tomorrow.

Once you've pledged not to cash out, however, some important choices have to be made that can substantially affect your retirement options down the road.

Leaving the money with a former employer, rolling it into your new company plan or stashing it in an individual retirement account each comes with its own set of pros and cons.

Let's start with leaving the money right where it is, assuming that's an option.

Most companies require low-balance accounts--those with less than $5,000--to be distributed out of the plan. If you have between $1,000 and $5,000, the company must open a traditional IRA and roll the money there. Amounts below $1,000 can be cashed out and sent directly to the employee, minus any early withdrawal penalties and tax withholding.

Why have your money stay someplace you wouldn't?

The only real advantage to leaving your 401(k) with an old employer is if the plan gives you access to a fantastic mutual fund that is closed to new investors, or if expenses are dramatically lower than what you could replicate at a low-cost mutual fund supermarket, said Rande Spiegelman, vice president of financial planning at the Schwab Center for Investment Research, a unit of Charles Schwab Corp.

Rolling the money to a new employer's plan can be simpler to track because you have all of your workplace savings in a single account, and that allows you to borrow from the money if you really need to, Spiegelman said. But you limit yourself on investment choices and don't get to participate in some new rules that allow taxpayers to convert to Roth IRAs for tax advantages down the road.

"Most often, the best decision is to roll it into an IRA. It gives you the most flexibility," Spiegelman said.

Sometimes an employer might be picking up a nice chunk of administrative expenses in the plan, but it might not be meaningful if you compare that with costs at a fund firm that charges ultralow fees for larger accounts, said Mark Luscombe, a senior federal tax analyst with CCH Inc. in Riverwoods.

Most company retirement plans have a dozen or fewer investment choices, compared with IRA holders who keep their accounts at mutual fund firms offering hundreds of fund choices and allowing access to other fund families' products.

Another reason for transferring the money to an IRA surfaced in last year's Pension Protection Act. Under the law, all retirement savers will be allowed to convert their traditional IRAs to Roth IRAs beginning in 2010.

That means people who typically would be phased out of Roth IRAs because of higher incomes will be allowed to pay taxes on their traditional IRAs and convert them to Roth IRAs, which grow and are withdrawn tax-free in retirement.

Paying taxes on a large IRA will be painful, but financial planners say tax rates in the future will almost certainly be higher, given the increasing demands of an aging population, and it will be a huge relief for seniors to have a tax-free stream of income in retirement.

In a few specific cases, however, an IRA rollover might not be the best option.

You typically can borrow against a workplace-qualified plan, but you can't borrow against an IRA, Spiegelman noted in a recent letter to clients.

Also, if you have a significant amount of company stock in your 401(k), you should calculate the benefits of favorable tax treatment before automatically rolling the whole plan into an IRA.

Using a strategy known as net unrealized appreciation, departing workers can take a lump-sum distribution of company stock, paying ordinary income tax on the shares' cost basis.

The difference between the basis and the fair market value, the net unrealized appreciation, is subject to the long-term capital gains tax rate when the shares are sold, said John Nersesian, managing director of the Wealth Management Services Group at Nuveen Investments in Chicago, who wrote an article on the topic for the Journal of Financial Planning.

That allows holders to liquidate immediately for diversification and lessens the tax bite by using the lower capital gains rate for the stock appreciation.

Meanwhile, roll the remainder of your company plan into an IRA so you avoid the early withdrawal penalty.

----------

Have a retirement question? Write to [email protected], or via mail at Your Money, Chicago Tribune, Room 400, 435 N. Michigan Ave., Chicago, IL, 60611. If your letter is selected we may include you and your question in a future column.

Copyright © 2007, Chicago Tribune
 
Make sure to check out the fees at your bank. Banks are typically expensive places to keep an IRA -- you'd do better with a well-known discount brokerage.

Not necessarily true. I'm not aware of what other banks charge, but mine offers them free of charge as long as the funds are in a deposit account, not in funds with our subsidiary brokerage firm.

Concerning keeping the funds in a deposit account, please don't do this if you are younger than fifty; you'd only be cheating yourself. Do me a favor and look at the market over any 10 year rolling period, and compare it to CD & Money Market IRA returns. Regardless of what firm you choose, make sure you select funds in several asset classes. Don't choose them because they have performed well, choose your funds on management tenure, performance against the peer group, and expense ratios. You can find good no-load funds at Vanguard or Fidelity if you choose to do it yourself, or you can find a reputable advisor in your area. Morningstar also has a great tool that is available upon subscription. It will help you find things like the beta and standard deviation of your portfolio compared to the benchmark of your choosing.

BTW, I think you're referring to a 403(b) which is offered to public employees.
Good luck in your search.

Joe
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the quick replies. Ken, I do like the investment options with my former employer as it includes real estate. However, I've been told that I can't put any more money in the account since I'm not working for them anymore. So at this time, the only option I have is to be able to switch investments?


No, you can roll it over and should be able to roughly mirror the investment portfolio of your old employer if you really want to. Odds are that your old 403K administrators were investing in widely available funds. That might be bad or good, depending on how well the funds were picked.


You will still end up with more than one retirement account that you will have to attend to. Don't feel bad, between my wife and myself we have 7 from various employers, self administered IRAs, and our present Simple IRA. Nature of the beast with modern employment dynamics.
 
Back
Top