Opinions on this ferrari 360 vs nsx

[davidf]

Steveny said it best: "At the end of the day if you've always dreamed of owning a Ferrari nothing else will fill that for you but a Ferrari."

That said, people can compare apples to oranges all day but if you've always wanted an F-car, get one. Enjoy it and scratch it off your bucket list.:wink:

 

[JD Cross]

Steveny said it best: "At the end of the day if you've always dreamed of owning a Ferrari nothing else will fill that for you but a Ferrari."
That said, people can compare apples to oranges all day but if you've always wanted an F-car, get one. Enjoy it and scratch it off your bucket list.:wink:

Agree with you and Steveny completely.
If you want a Ferrari, buy one and enjoy it for was it is to you.
If you want an NSX, buy one and enjoy it for what it is to you.
Just don't try to make one into the other.

 

[davidf]

I totally agree.

Agree with you and Steveny completely.
If you want a Ferrari, buy one and enjoy it for was it is to you.
If you want an NSX, buy one and enjoy it for what it is to you.
Just don't try to make one into the other.

 

[cptnsx]

I think we've got apples and oranges here.

If we're talking about hot-rodded NSX's with Turbo/SC then compare those to hot-rodded Ferrari 328/348's.

There are no hot-rodded Ferrari 328/348 and that's the point being made. That argument of if I modify this car then you can modify the other car does hold up with a Ferrari since it's basically taboo to modify one. You want a modified Ferrari you buy the next upgraded model.

If you want a 360 because you think it looks better externally (maybe) or inside (definitely) or because it conveys a higher status (obviously) then maybe it is for you over a NSX. But if you are into performance and already have an NSX it makes no sense. You can get a NSX to perform at or near the F430 level with ~15-25K (but the F430 does it NA ie better). Modifying Ferrari takes stupid money and destroys value. Let's call out the elephant in the room ....... its all about status and if that is the important thing to you then you will never be satisfied until you have a Ferrari.

 

[flabuf]

There are no hot-rodded Ferrari 328/348 and that's the point being made. That argument of if I modify this car then you can modify the other car does hold up with a Ferrari since it's basically taboo to modify one. You want a modified Ferrari you buy the next upgraded model.

If you want a 360 because you think it looks better externally (maybe) or inside (definitely) or because it conveys a higher status (obviously) then maybe it is for you over a NSX. But if you are into performance and already have an NSX it makes no sense. You can get a NSX to perform at or near the F430 level with ~15-25K (but the F430 does it NA ie better). Modifying Ferrari takes stupid money and destroys value. Let's call out the elephant in the room ....... its all about status and if that is the important thing to you then you will never be satisfied until you have a Ferrari.

Only one thing left out... the modified NSX (twin turbo in my case) is infinitely more reliable and driveable than any Ferrari. Our 8 NSX's two years ago at the toy rally in Ft. Lauderdale had over 1,000,000 miles on them. Who's ever heard of a 100,000 mile Ferrari much less a 300,000 mile Ferrari?! I'd have no problem, or concern, hopping into my 170,000 mile NSX tomorrow and driving to Ohio (and am planning that in Oct. for NSXPO). Would anyone do that with their F-car?

 

[JD Cross]

There are no hot-rodded Ferrari 328/348 and that's the point being made. That argument of if I modify this car then you can modify the other car does hold up with a Ferrari since it's basically taboo to modify one. You want a modified Ferrari you buy the next upgraded model.

Exactly.
The point I was trying to make is if you are comparing a hot-rodded NSX to a stock Ferrari it's not a fair comparison.
It's my experience that Ferrari owners have great respect for the marque of their cars and don't generally modify them.
A 328, for example, is accepted, for what it is and also what it's not.
And yes if you want a faster Ferrari you move up the ever evolving product line.
Masterful corporate strategy given that a Ferrari is really a Fiat, but to most sports car owners, a Ferrari is still the most desirable of all and for which their is no substitute.
Also interesting is that while Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti and now Porsche are really Volkswagens they too have kept those marques separate and almost as desirable.

Perhaps if Honda had kept developing the NSX to keep it competitive, we might have seen the same respect for each of the updated NSX versions.
As it sits now the NSX, particularly with new owners, seems to be viewed as the logical step up from a hot rodded Civic so the NSX is given the same type of treatment as the Civic's were.
For what ever reason(s), the NSX, while universally viewed as a good reliable car, and in it's heyday (the fat five wheeled coupes) the best in it's class, is rarely seen in the same condition as a pristine stock 328/348 and certainly not held in the same esteem.
And the heavily modded NSX versions, in my view, tend to cheapen the car/marque, more than add to it's image.

Hopefully at some point down the road, and perhaps it's beginning now, NSX's will be seen as the revolutionary car that changed the direction of the world sports car market and stock versions will enjoy the respect they (and Honda) are due.

 

[blue_myriddn]

There are no hot-rodded Ferrari 328/348 and that's the point being made.

Not quite true: http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2014/6/...-is-the-Perfect-Prancing-Horse-Tuner-7720841/

Modded ferraris are rare, but they are still out there.

My personal favorite at the moment is a guy taking a Boxer and putting a Testarossa engine in it: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/429042-testarossa-powered-boxer.html That will be one cool car!

 

[bngl3rt]

Perhaps if Honda had kept developing the NSX to keep it competitive, we might have seen the same respect for each of the updated NSX versions.
As it sits now the NSX, particularly with new owners, seems to be viewed as the logical step up from a hot rodded Civic so the NSX is given the same type of treatment as the Civic's were.
For what ever reason(s), the NSX, while universally viewed as a good reliable car, and in it's heyday (the fat five wheeled coupes) the best in it's class, is rarely seen in the same condition as a pristine stock 328/348 and certainly not held in the same esteem.
And the heavily modded NSX versions, in my view, tend to cheapen the car/marque, more than add to it's image.

Hopefully at some point down the road, and perhaps it's beginning now, NSX's will be seen as the revolutionary car that changed the direction of the world sports car market and stock versions will enjoy the respect they (and Honda) are due.

Hear hear! This has been on my mind a lot lately - especially this week walking around the auction houses in Pebble Beach for Car Week. What kind of classic do we want the NSX to become? I believe it's our responsibility as owners and enthusiasts to pick the right direction and work towards it. The way I see it there are two models to consider following...

The 911 model, where originality is king - and a bone stock 1970s 911 with full documentation and history, plus a decent restoration, is selling in the six figures today. These guys stand around in tents on golf courses bidding on each others' cars while sipping champagne or whiskey.

The American muscle car scene, where cars don't get restored, they get "built" - in this case the most interesting thing about each individual car, the story that is told about it and the thing that determines its value is not its originality or provenance, but what interesting customizations have been made to it - basically what "build" was done on it. Most original parts are tossed and modern crate motors, air conditioning systems, etc are fitted, and it's a contest who can do the nicest paint job or the best interior - but it's all aftermarket. An original car is worthless. These guys meet up in parking lots, but also actually drive their cars.

I'm torn because while I love that the 911 guys respect the originality and the significance that the car had in its time (rather than trying to "modernize" it with mods), the truth is that many of them are collectors and not drivers. Certainly if I had just paid $500k for a car I too would be pretty reluctant to go drive it on the street or beat on it at the track. I also understand that if you love 911s and want an ultra-modern one, Porsche will sell you that car off a dealer lot today - whereas if you love NSXs and want an ultra modern one, you have to buy an old one and start modding it up with the aspects of modernity you consider preferable. We'll see where things land once the NSX2 is out.

My hope is that as the car continues to appreciate, the ex-Civic-ricers will realize they can sell for more than they bought for and get out of NSXs - and then the long hard task of buying up all those riced-to-shit cars and returning them to "original intent" condition will fall to us true believers (because if we don't, heartless speculators will). My wallet is ready... I think...

 

[BATMANs]

Ferraris and Lambos were cars that I considered a major leap from my NSX....... until these sexier, more powerful and better fit/finish (scene them in person) boys showed up:

Pagani
Koenigsegg
P1

Now, even with exotic car meets the F360, F430, Gallardo, R8 are in the "Meh" corner with the NSX when the aforementioned shows up at parties.

 

[JD Cross]

Hear hear! This has been on my mind a lot lately - especially this week walking around the auction houses in Pebble Beach for Car Week. What kind of classic do we want the NSX to become? I believe it's our responsibility as owners and enthusiasts to pick the right direction and work towards it. The way I see it there are two models to consider following...

The 911 model, where originality is king - and a bone stock 1970s 911 with full documentation and history, plus a decent restoration, is selling in the six figures today. These guys stand around in tents on golf courses bidding on each others' cars while sipping champagne or whiskey.

The American muscle car scene, where cars don't get restored, they get "built" - in this case the most interesting thing about each individual car, the story that is told about it and the thing that determines its value is not its originality or provenance, but what interesting customizations have been made to it - basically what "build" was done on it. Most original parts are tossed and modern crate motors, air conditioning systems, etc are fitted, and it's a contest who can do the nicest paint job or the best interior - but it's all aftermarket. An original car is worthless. These guys meet up in parking lots, but also actually drive their cars.

I'm torn because while I love that the 911 guys respect the originality and the significance that the car had in its time (rather than trying to "modernize" it with mods), the truth is that many of them are collectors and not drivers. Certainly if I had just paid $500k for a car I too would be pretty reluctant to go drive it on the street or beat on it at the track. I also understand that if you love 911s and want an ultra-modern one, Porsche will sell you that car off a dealer lot today - whereas if you love NSXs and want an ultra modern one, you have to buy an old one and start modding it up with the aspects of modernity you consider preferable. We'll see where things land once the NSX2 is out.

My hope is that as the car continues to appreciate, the ex-Civic-ricers will realize they can sell for more than they bought for and get out of NSXs - and then the long hard task of buying up all those riced-to-shit cars and returning them to "original intent" condition will fall to us true believers (because if we don't, heartless speculators will). My wallet is ready... I think...

Well said!

My cousin who appraises cars for the insurance companies mentions that on the muscle car front the original muscle cars like a Hemi Barracuda still sell for more than the "restored-modified" class like a 6 cylinder Barracuda with a hemi installed later on. He also mentions that while the "resto-mod" owners have done engines/brakes/suspension/paint etc. they almost always respect the original body and don't tack on aftermarket body parts other than period correct decals etc.

I too see two separate markets forming for NSX's.
The stock/near stock units, particularly the early coupes, continuing to appreciate.
The heavily modified/riced units dropping in value as their appeal is mainly to a younger buyer who perhaps doesn't have the money to buy a collectible NSX.

I noticed on the Prime Facebook page a young NSX owner Ryan Ante posted this photoshopped NSX.
He is thinking about painting his NSX this colour with green Brembo brakes and blue wheels and was looking for comments.
Not much respect shown for the NSX there.
If the owner goes ahead I can't see his NSX doing anything but going down in value.

 

[unknownpharoah]

Does the value truly go down with a mod that is completely reversable? I know guys locally that own auto body shops and use their cars for advertisement at the local shows and such. It's reversable and they have the OEM parts available so would temp mods really permanently devalue your ride in the long term?

 

[JD Cross]

Does the value truly go down with a mod that is completely reversable? I know guys locally that own auto body shops and use their cars for advertisement at the local shows and such. It's reversable and they have the OEM parts available so would temp mods really permanently devalue your ride in the long term?

Any NSX can be restored, I think it's a questions of whether it's financially worth it.

If a car is modified but all the oem parts are available with the car, then a restoration would be simpler and cost less.
The car's value could the same as a stock unit or higher if the buyer views the modifications as desirable.

However if you've got to source oem parts or repaint to oem specs, the cost will be significantly higher.
That car's value could be expected to be lower.

Some NSX's today are not worth restoring from a financial point of view.
I don't think a unit with a widebody kit, non oem paint job, and no original parts stored away would be worth restoring given today's market prices.

From my limited experience, even with the original parts available, it looks like at least half the cost of modifications are lost immediately.
So if an owner spends say $10 K on bolt on body parts, paint etc. I think $5K is gone before the paint dries.

This of course ignores what an owner feels they get out of driving a modified version.
It appears that to many owners, particularly younger ones, the residual value of the mods and the effect on the car's value seem to be secondary to the desire to customize.

Valuation is a tricky subject but I think the less an NSX is modified, the more potential buyers there are.
Modifications, being a matter of individual taste, may eliminate some potential buyers who don't want those particular mods.
Engine modifications seem to be a double edged sword.
It seems most, if not all, potential buyers like the idea of more power but that is offset to some degree by buyer concerns over reliability and engine life

I've noticed two heavily modified NSX's on eBay not sell auction after auction.
The price shown likely reflects the cost of the modifications and while they may really appeal to the younger ex-Civic buyer, those buyers don't have the money to buy either car.

So I'm not sure my answer to your question helps but my conclusion is that anything done to an NSX ( or any car) that reduces the number of potential owners, also potentially lowers it's value.

 

[bngl3rt]

My cousin who appraises cars for the insurance companies mentions that on the muscle car front the original muscle cars like a Hemi Barracuda still sell for more than the "restored-modified" class like a 6 cylinder Barracuda with a hemi installed later on. He also mentions that while the "resto-mod" owners have done engines/brakes/suspension/paint etc. they almost always respect the original body and don't tack on aftermarket body parts other than period correct decals etc.

Interesting! I wonder if there is room for a third tier between pristine cars and riced out pieces of crap - it seems like there are mods that the muscle community accepts as canonical "resto-mod" stuff. I wonder what those are for us - base CTSC? Coilovers?

The real value of these old cars, be it 911 or American muscle, isn't the way they look but the way they DRIVE as it is so different from modern cars. I already see that a lot of these show cars/auction queens are never driven by their actual owners, much less shared generously for a new generation of enthusiasts to discover. I wonder what the best way is to ensure that NSXs are available to be driven (not just drooled over at shows and auctions) in the future the way they are today.

Though, I'm always dreaming of picking up a pristine NSX and winning concourses with it just to piss off Ferrari people.

 

[JD Cross]

Interesting! I wonder if there is room for a third tier between pristine cars and riced out pieces of crap - it seems like there are mods that the muscle community accepts as canonical "resto-mod" stuff. I wonder what those are for us - base CTSC? Coilovers?
The real value of these old cars, be it 911 or American muscle, isn't the way they look but the way they DRIVE as it is so different from modern cars. I already see that a lot of these show cars/auction queens are never driven by their actual owners, much less shared generously for a new generation of enthusiasts to discover. I wonder what the best way is to ensure that NSXs are available to be driven (not just drooled over at shows and auctions) in the future the way they are today.

Well we've certainly moved this thread along from RJ's original request for help on a Ferrari.

Nonetheless you may well be right about a three tier price.
The time may not be so far distant in seeing how this all comes out.

In defence of the 911/Hemi Cuda owner, I can see if you've owned one of those for a long time or even from new, and it's now valued in 6 figures, a lot of the pleasure of ownership may be simply admiring the car in it's pristine state.
If you're a long time owner, you've likely driven it lots so that novelty has worn off and the occasional sunny Sunday in your rare machine may be all you want.

My 91 is stock, I've owned it since new, and it's got 100 k miles on it now.
8 k of those miles were from driving it to NSXPO in Raleigh last year.
This year I'm finding I'm driving it less, admiring its design and engineering more, and using it for special drives rather than daily.
Looks like I'm morphing into the pristine 911 group :smile:

 

[bngl3rt]

Well we've certainly moved this thread along from RJ's original request for help on a Ferrari.

Whoops! Apologies RJ. This had honestly been on my mind and I was going to make a whole new thread to talk about it but there was already related stuff being said in here... My bad.

 

[blue_myriddn]

Getting this back on track,

... but IMO there is a myth about Ferrari reliability for sure. With that said however I bet I could have taken my Ferrari to the dealer and they could have found a ton of expensive items to replace. The car kept driving and that was good enough for me.

I whole heartedly believe this to be true. I think it stems from two things:

1) history - older ferraris really are that much of a pain in the ass to maintain
2) over-maintenance

I highly suspect that most 360s are over maintained and that they can get by on a lot less $$$ then people pour in to them.

I ran across this video the other day and it is surprising some of the real silly aspects of a Ferrari that would quite honestly drive me crazy. While Honda did some fumbles on their own (like the big honkin black key circles on the doors) simply because they don't have the styling instincts of an Italian, you have to admit they got a lot of the "well duh, that just makes sense" aspects correct

 

[91 X]

Getting this back on track,



I whole heartedly believe this to be true. I think it stems from two things:

1) history - older ferraris really are that much of a pain in the ass to maintain
2) over-maintenance

I highly suspect that most 360s are over maintained and that they can get by on a lot less $$$ then people pour in to them.

I ran across this video the other day and it is surprising some of the real silly aspects of a Ferrari that would quite honestly drive me crazy. While Honda did some fumbles on their own (like the big honkin black key circles on the doors) simply because they don't have the styling instincts of an Italian, you have to admit they got a lot of the "well duh, that just makes sense" aspects correct

wow...what a bunch of stupid engineers(oxi morons):redface:

I also hear about some sort of sticky button issues???

I still want one:tongue:

 

[steveny]

wow...what a bunch of stupid engineers(oxi morons):redface:

I also hear about some sort of sticky button issues???

I still want one:tongue:

Oh yeah all that exists and more. Mine had an issue where it wouldn't shift easily into 2nd gear for the first five or so minutes. When the road is clear, the exhaust is singing and the shifter gate is clicking away all the little idiosyncrasies disappear

 

[davidf]

If you used Honda gear oil it would've shifted buttery smooth.:biggrin:

Oh yeah all that exists and more. Mine had an issue where it wouldn't shift easily into 2nd gear for the first five or so minutes. When the road is clear, the exhaust is singing and the shifter gate is clicking away all the little idiosyncrasies disappear

 

[BATMANs]

True dat

 

[rj45]

wow...what a bunch of stupid engineers(oxi morons):redface:

I also hear about some sort of sticky button issues???

I still want one:tongue:

This makes me want the manual more.

- - - Updated - - -

This makes me want the manual more.

The price went down to 50k... I want to look around more before I dive in on the first one but it does seem a good deal.

 

[s14_tat]

wow...what a bunch of stupid engineers(oxi morons):redface:

I also hear about some sort of sticky button issues???

I still want one:tongue:

What if you are going on a road trip? How are you suppose to plug your car in? When the battery dies, how do you start the car again if jumping it could short out the gauge cluster?

 

[steveny]

What if you are going on a road trip? How are you suppose to plug your car in? When the battery dies, how do you start the car again if jumping it could short out the gauge cluster?

I jumped mine a couple times, no issues.

 

[NSX-COLORADO]

I think we've got apples and oranges here.

The NSX was designed to compete with the 328 which it outperformed and it also outperformed the 328 successor, the 348.
The NSX did the job it was designed to do and I'd say it was competitive up until the mid nineties when other marques offered newer more powerful models.
As Honda did not keep up development of the NSX it fell behind.

Now we've got former and current Ferrari owners talking about 355's, 360's and 430's.
These are all cars built after the NSX core design was done.
They should be better cars than the NSX.
They cost a great deal more.
If the dated NSX (in stock form) still held it's own against these newer Ferrari's it's a testament to the quality of the work done by the Honda engineers on the original NSX.

If the Ferrari buffs want to compare their marque against the NSX then let's hear about the correct comparison.
That's between the 328/348 and the NSX both in stock form.

If we're talking about hot-rodded NSX's with Turbo/SC then compare those to hot-rodded Ferrari 328/348's.
Comparing a Ferrari 360 to an NSX makes no sense.
That's like comparing a 360 to an LFA.

We NSX owners need to embrace the NSX for what it is.
A superior two seat mid-engined sports car that ruled the day in the early nineties and set the bar for all that followed.

EXTREMELY - Good Point.. NSX beat Ferrari back in the Day.
How can a 23 year old NSX compete with a Ferrari that was made 7-10 years ago?
Technology has improved so much for all car manufactures:redface:

 

[peiserg]

Haha Lotta nsx nutswingin' goin on in this thread.