Group Buy P2F ABS Delete w/ Provision for Tilton P-Valve(All years)

[liftnot]

It has taken us too many months to reach this point but we are finally ready to bolt this on and shake it down.
This is for folks with BBK but its not balanced AND for those with OEM brakes as you can adjust the brake balance frt or rear.

*the ABS light will stay on. There are threads showing how to turn it off but did not work for us so we just let it go.

Price is TBA & we don't expect any surprises and the lead time is 2-3 weeks. No deposit is required for now. If you are interested, plz sign up. You can remove your name if you change your mind. There will be a GB price and the price break starts at Qty of 5/10/15/20... and so on. We have negotiated the price break with our vendor so we can pass it on to you.
1. Nero
2. prym8
3. davef
4. Sduff
5. jagtiger
6.
7.
.......

Background info.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/183356-A-New-NSX-Vendor-Pole-2-Flag-Racing-Is-In-Town!!!

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/183984-ABS-Delete-Kit-Update?highlight=ABS+delete

 

[Nero Tenebre]

Put me down first!!! Thanks

 

[davidf]

Can you clarify what affect "not being balance" for BBK will do? And Nero cut in line damnit. He types faster than me.:redface:

 

[prym8]

I would take a kit.
thanks!

 

[liftnot]

Can you clarify what affect "not being balance" for BBK will do? And Nero cut in line damnit. He types faster than me.:redface:

AFAIK, Nero has nervous fingers and they are faster than you can blink

Great question Dave, others may have this question as well.

The short answer is: depending on your comfort zone and your ability to adapt how the car brakes under heavy braking.

Longer answer: Even if you have oem brakes, you can use this ABS delete to adjust the brake balance to your liking. If you are not comfortable with that or have a problem with my answer, then stick with the P2F ABS delete for oem brakes.

Looking at the Dali Brake Balance Table(if you trusted the numbers) http://daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=569

We are more familiar with the Brembo "Indy" brakes than the Stop Tech which ST advertise their BBK as NSX Specific. Notice the different sizes of pistons of ST used so they can say, its balanced for the NSX. But, IMO, they can use the same approach for another mid engine car and say its balanced for that car as the line pressure will be different front and rear due to difference pistons sizes. Brembo are all the same which means they took off-the-shelf calipers and made them fit the front and rear knuckles for economy of scale/price vs a different size of pistons of a different caliper that would certainly cost more. ST used different sizes of pistons for the front and rear so it IS more balanced than the Brembo.

We never drove a ST car but the math sazs its 50/50 and the Brembo is 37/63, almost 14% difference. does it matter? that is up to you to decide. We think the Brembo brakes feels more like an on-off with little modulation but totally livable and MAN it stops well lap after lap. the car does have a 02+ ABS unit but no aftermarket P-valve.
We imagine ST is the same with different feel perhaps?? Maybe someone else can chime in like 1K2GO. He has ST on all 4 corners but no 02+ ABS unit.

Now we do know many folks put on BBK of various brand just for the front and that would really change the numbers but so far no one seems to bother to post any indepth threads on that topic. Its either its not a problem or "you will get use to it".

When we first remove the Gen 1 ABS unit in place of the Dali ABS Delete, we were skeptical of how it works or how it might not work. But after many years, its trouble free except for the quality of the kit. So we came up with a design using the best lines available not the typical 2-layer teflon/braided lines easy to kink but 5-layers(see our website for more detail) and not kink-able. They are THE best line on the market and DOT approved. No one else carry that product.

In conclusion, you should use our 5-layer brakes lines on all 4 corners and the ABS Delete Kit w/ P-valve provision if you know your car and have decent driving skills.

 

[solidol]

This looks like high quality piece. For those without abs I think it's a must. Especially if you're running non nsx specific brake setup. No more playing with pads compound I guess

Is valve itself vibration resistant? And how fine grain adjustments are? Thanks

 

[liftnot]

The benefits of this part are multi-dimensional. we recommend using Tilton P-valve and Tilton only as they are the best. Our 5-layer lines are the best as well not the typical 2-layer you find everywhere else. Tilton P-valve has two types, the lever and the knob. The lever type has 7 positions(?) and the knob type is infinitely adjustable. The location of the input and output ports of both of them are the same.

Many road racing cars have been using the Tilton lever type for as long as I can remember cuz you know exactly which position is for which track and the detent design is very vibration resistant. if you need more, there might be something else wrong with your set up ie. a huge frt BBK with a tiny rear oem, there might not be enough range dial it in, BTA, it might but you are on your own and this part is not returnable. You should know what you are doing as this will give your more options to tune the balance and a heck of a lot easier than changing pads.

For those of you are thinking doing the 02+ ABS conversion, keep a few things in mind. 1) its a $3k+ for parts. 2) At least one full day labor. 3) To use it often you have to drive like mad on the street and might end up paying more for bail and impound. 4) Do #3 on the track you'll need sticky tires and there is no purse for the winner for that extra couple 10th. 5) Panic stop? You should pay attention and keep a safe distance anyway. If caught in the rain, slow down and hope other yahoo won't hit you. 6) the design is 1990 era at best. Better than NA1 but that is not saying a whole lot. 7) It does look OEM and mother Honda. 8) not tune able unless you know how to crack the codes. 9) We really don't think you'll activate it as often as you think so any mod at $3k,+ you should use it as often as possible.:wink:....but not in this case.

IMO, the knob type is harder to tell which position is the right one unless you mark them.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

What's your thoughts on people that run two valves? I hear that our cars are different in the way their bias are adjusted or that's what I remember way back when speaking with someone about it. I truthfully forget but I think it was either they ran two valves and ran the lines crossing the rear and front on each side or just did something else.

Anyways, ad me to the list. I need my abs out and it's come time finally now I'm planning to do some work.

 

[liftnot]

This is a good guide to keep.

https://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/98-1261-Brake-Proportioning-Valve.pdf

- - - Updated - - -

What's your thoughts on people that run two valves? I hear that our cars are different in the way their bias are adjusted or that's what I remember way back when speaking with someone about it. I truthfully forget but I think it was either they ran two valves and ran the lines crossing the rear and front on each side or just did something else.

Anyways, ad me to the list. I need my abs out and it's come time finally now I'm planning to do some work.

Steve,
short ans.= We have never seen other race cars/cars using two P-valves successfully. Dali had one w/ two valve and it was double the trouble and MJ could never quite get it right. (so he said)

long ans = Nick at Applied built a mega turbo track car recently dubbed "Shanghai" as the owner wanted to run it on the F1 track there.....long story short, Coz posted a thread during its shake down and it has a similar ABS delete set up as our except using hardline which was extremely difficult/tricky to make but not reproducible nor affordable.

Attached pix is the proof and we just R&D (ripped off and duplicate) the set up using the best SS line on the market. In a way, this set up is already tracked tested but we want to be sure of our set up work just as well as the hard lines. This arrangement turns the brake balance frt to back not "crossing" (I can't remember either). Otherwise, it would be tricky to tune. We followed the KISS principle the best we can.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Awesome. Thanks for the explanation. I think it was coz who I spoke with about this in short since we were talking suspension and kW settings.

This setup I bet saves some weight too, therefore you can eat more and gain a pound or two!

 

[liftnot]

This setup I bet saves some weight too, therefore you can eat more and gain a pound or two!

We ALWAYS keep this in mind in all we do cuz weight DOES matter all the time on street or on track and it all add up quickly. Our lightly modded NA has low hp but the power/wt. ratio is getting better all the time.

 

[liftnot]

Took Senor Ramon ~1hr. to install this 1st time. Before I knew it, he was on a road test and came back with a thumbs-up. This system is now Frt & Back and at the straight up position of the P-valve, I can lock the rear up under heavy braking w/ ease so a couple notch of the Tilton P-valve CW to the right, its all good and it brakes harder than before w/o the P-valve. Drove around all day and all is good. Here is the final installation and we are shortening the longest line by 2" for the production model. Working on pricing now:wink:

The P-valve controls/changes the frt brakes line pressure. The rear pressure stays the same all the time. We kept it KISS as duel P-valve like the old Dali set up would be very difficult to set it right.

* We are using THE best line on the market for this NOT the common 2-layer SS that used to be the best lines until now. ck our website for detail explanation.
http://pole2flagracing.com/dot-approved-ss-lines.html

 

[jagtiger]

looks like a great product! Please sign me up.

 

[davidf]

Is this completely different than what I already have or is it just an addition to it. I have not installed anything yet. I recently received the cool bracket.

 

[Nero Tenebre]

Oops I assumed it was the rest of the kit we have been waiting for David! Itchy fingers

 

[davidf]

Oops I assumed it was the rest of the kit we have been waiting for David! Itchy fingers

Yeah, me too. Either way I'd like to convert.

 

[liftnot]

Is this completely different than what I already have or is it just an addition to it. I have not installed anything yet. I recently received the cool bracket.

Completely different kit than the 1st ABS delete kit. There are fittings and such that are the same but we won't market it that way on a component level as it will certainly create confusion having so many loose parts all look the same but they are not. So don't open your 1st ABS box yet.

The 1st kit is crossed frt/back plumbed thus it looks better but its not adjustable so its better for people with oem brakes and not want to bother with any adjustments. Kinda like the yellow Bilsteins.

This kit is frt/back plumbed for various AM BBK or oem(like me) & for those who wants to adjust the frt line pressure bias. The rear line pressure is fixed and there is no P-valve. On mine '93 oem brakes, I can put more pressure in the frt and the car brakes harder than before as the frt caliper was a bit "under-utilized" or perhaps my car is under 2600lbs. At the 12 o'clock position of the P-valve, I was able to lock the rear at the end of heavy braking w/ ease. Two notches CW to the right, its happier now.

You are a special case so We'll work something out specially for U.:wink: ......once we have a price in the next day or two. Still running around making sure all is kosher. We think the design is not as elegant as the 1st kit but at least its not grotesque.

 

[davidf]

Completely different kit than the 1st ABS delete kit. There are fittings and such that are the same but we won't market it that way on a component level as it will certainly create confusion having so many loose parts all look the same but they are not. So don't open your 1st ABS box yet.

The 1st kit is crossed frt/back plumbed thus it looks better but its not adjustable so its better for people with oem brakes and not want to bother with any adjustments. Kinda like the yellow Bilsteins.

This kit is frt/back plumbed for various AM BBK or oem(like me) & for those who wants to adjust the frt line pressure bias. The rear line pressure is fixed and there is no P-valve. On mine '93 oem brakes, I can put more pressure in the frt and the car brakes harder than before as the frt caliper was a bit "under-utilized" or perhaps my car is under 2600lbs. At the 12 o'clock position of the P-valve, I was able to lock the rear at the end of heavy braking w/ ease. Two notches CW to the right, its happier now.

You are a special case so We'll work something out specially for U.:wink: ......once we have a price in the next day or two. Still running around making sure all is kosher. We think the design is not as elegant as the 1st kit but at least its not grotesque.

My mama always said I was speshul right before I got on that little bus.:smile:

 

[Mac Attack]

The P-valve controls/changes the frt brakes line pressure. The rear pressure stays the same all the time.

PLEASE change this. You should NEVER put a proportioning valve to control the front brake line pressure on a street or track-driven vehicle.

Glad I hopped on Prime to bump some parts for sale. I would hate to see someone die in a panic braking maneuver with this setup.

For the people buying this product, please do your own research on why you should never put a prop valve reducing the braking pressure to the front wheels. Bottom line is that you do not want the rear wheels to lock up before the fronts do... makes it easier for the rear to come around.

Without ABS, your foot pressure controls when your front brakes should lock up, and then the prop valve does the rest to ensure that your rear brakes never lock up before your fronts. This applies to the street and track.



Dave

 

[liftnot]

Below is from the Tilton P-valve installation guide. Also found on post #9 . I should give Mac Tilton a call.

A particular setting of the balance bar gives you a set front-to-rear brake balance, such as 70/30 (70% front/30% rear). Under both light and heavy braking, this balance remains the same. However, the loading on the front and rear axles does not remain the same under different braking conditions. During heavy braking, there is a large load transfer from the rear to the front axle. As the load increases on the front axle you want a higher percentage of the braking force on the front axle. The bend in the graph for the proportioning valve allows this to happen when the proportioning valve is placed in the line for the rear calipers. During heavier braking, a higher percentage of the braking force is distributed to the front calipers.

 

[Mac Attack]

Below is from the Tilton P-valve installation guide. Also found on post #9 . I should give Mac Tilton a call.

A particular setting of the balance bar gives you a set front-to-rear brake balance, such as 70/30 (70% front/30% rear). Under both light and heavy braking, this balance remains the same. However, the loading on the front and rear axles does not remain the same under different braking conditions. During heavy braking, there is a large load transfer from the rear to the front axle. As the load increases on the front axle you want a higher percentage of the braking force on the front axle. The bend in the graph for the proportioning valve allows this to happen when the proportioning valve is placed in the line for the rear calipers. During heavier braking, a higher percentage of the braking force is distributed to the front calipers.

Everything from Tilton is correct. However, you seem to be misinterpreting it. Look at the two sentences AFTER the stuff you underlined. The prop valve "knee" on the rear allows you to nicely accommodate for that load transfer under moderate-to-high braking forces.

Sometimes you may want a prop valve in the front... but that is for folks who like to do it in the dirt and should never apply to a tracked or street vehicle.

Dave

 

[liftnot]

For the record, our P-valve is plumbed to the rear.
Let it go.

 

[Mac Attack]

For the record, our P-valve is plumbed to the rear.

So... it sounds like you got lucky then :biggrin:

 

[liftnot]

No. Was in a rush and words did not come out right. A bit weak on multi-tasking. It was designed/sorted a few months ago and FINALLY the vendor was able to locate all the right pieces.

Was REALLY bummed/occupied w/ our pre-preg center console that did not pop out as pretty as it needs to be so we have to use a different process. Effort wasted and lesson learned. To polish and coat pre-preg many times can not be the solution but that is how pre-preg looks out of mold, strong, light but not bling quality.

 

[Nero Tenebre]

So I guess this means this does not solve getting a prop valve for the other kit? Will this kit have the tilton p valve included? Or separate again?