What's the consensus on this? Gimmick, or legit? I watched Spoon's video on the benefits, but I'm not sure the NSX has all that much slop in the mounting holes. Having just dropped the front subframe, it seemed fairly tight to me. Waste of $300?
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Spoon Rigid Collars
- Thread starter Honcho
- Start date
Unfortunately, I do not have much to offer other than the article below. There are some good photos to help describe the product.
http://www.speedhunters.com/2018/01/project-nsx-goes-honda-heaven/
http://www.speedhunters.com/2018/01/project-nsx-goes-honda-heaven/
Gotta be the worst rip off in mod history... Like believing a set of 300 dollar lug nuts will make your car perform better.:biggrin:
Don't we all drive our cars up to 125% of the designed limits....
Back in the 80's, Bimota sold high $ frames / running gear as upgrades for the larger Japanese motor cycle engines. Some of the designs had bolted up frame sections and used special bolts with tapered shoulders (as my increasingly bad memory recalls) to minimize movement at the bolted joints. This helped when you had relatively small mating surfaces. So perhaps the Spoon product has some theoretical merit. The idea worked on the Bimota because the mating surfaces on the bolted joints were smallish and the bolt became a structural element in the joint. However, if the mating surfaces on the NSX are relatively large and rigid and have good flatness, the benefits may be minimal / undetectable. You would have to look at all the sites that Spoon has identified to assess whether the potential benefits might be material.
A couple of things concern me a little bit after viewing the video. The actual deformation in the collar appears to be limited to the mounting flange. I take it that the flange is supposed to squish out improving the contact area between the two bolted surfaces? Given that the collar flange does not appear to be very large in diameter, is there a possibility that you might actually be reducing the contact area if the flange does not squish out super thin? If you use these on subframe mounting points and you get some differential squishing, then you potentially alter alignment / ride height / stuff. The video makes much of the fact that the OEM bolt holes have clearance to allow for ease of assembly. If the collars are sized to eliminate that clearance, it strikes me that this could make assembly more challenging (bloody impossible?). If after assembly, the collars deform (as the video suggests) is it possible that they make removal of the bolt more challenging and if the collars deform and lock themselves in the hole, this may make the whole disassembly and reassembly process more interesting.
A couple of things concern me a little bit after viewing the video. The actual deformation in the collar appears to be limited to the mounting flange. I take it that the flange is supposed to squish out improving the contact area between the two bolted surfaces? Given that the collar flange does not appear to be very large in diameter, is there a possibility that you might actually be reducing the contact area if the flange does not squish out super thin? If you use these on subframe mounting points and you get some differential squishing, then you potentially alter alignment / ride height / stuff. The video makes much of the fact that the OEM bolt holes have clearance to allow for ease of assembly. If the collars are sized to eliminate that clearance, it strikes me that this could make assembly more challenging (bloody impossible?). If after assembly, the collars deform (as the video suggests) is it possible that they make removal of the bolt more challenging and if the collars deform and lock themselves in the hole, this may make the whole disassembly and reassembly process more interesting.
I think I might skip this mod. There was no movement at all in the subframe even with the bolts loosened. I think a quality alignment with someone that knows how to align the NSX is a better option.
I think that is probably money 'better spent'. If you pulled everything apart and see no evidence of movement in the bolted connections, then as long as you can get the alignment to your desired spec, that is probably as good as it gets.
What little assessment of the collars that I have seen has all been subjective. Subjective owner assessments are always colored by the "I just spent $300 on parts and $300 - $500 on labor and alignment, its got to be better". It would be interesting to see an assessment of before and after lap times on a car that didn't have a clapped out chassis with identical alignment specs (before and after).
I've completely disassembled my car and there were no indications of any subframe movement relative to the unibody. I also didn't have any alignment problems, so I didn't see the need for the collars.
The placebo effect is strong, and that Speedhunters article was written from the standpoint of someone who was offered the product for free to review. Also interesting is how they changed the steering wheel at the same time, which can most definitely contribute to improvement in the steering and handling feel.
Finally, ionic water in the presence of aluminum and copper (the paste they use on the collars) will cause corrosion. Do they salt roads in Japan? I WOULD NOT apply copper paste to these aluminum collars and mate them up with our aluminum vehicle.
There's a reason why Honda didn't simply coat their bolts with copper instead of Dacro (basically zinc with a chromium binder).
My $0.02.
The placebo effect is strong, and that Speedhunters article was written from the standpoint of someone who was offered the product for free to review. Also interesting is how they changed the steering wheel at the same time, which can most definitely contribute to improvement in the steering and handling feel.
Finally, ionic water in the presence of aluminum and copper (the paste they use on the collars) will cause corrosion. Do they salt roads in Japan? I WOULD NOT apply copper paste to these aluminum collars and mate them up with our aluminum vehicle.
There's a reason why Honda didn't simply coat their bolts with copper instead of Dacro (basically zinc with a chromium binder).
My $0.02.
they cost less if you find the right place. A lot of US middle men charge a crazy premium importing JDM parts. (I don't want to name them since we all know who they are)
I have them installed in the rear but not front because the mechanic struggled to take off the front subframe.
I have them on my car and they were not easy and fast to install. Do they work? I’ve seen the subframes have lots of movement around the bolts so yes I believe they work. I don’t believe they will make a huge difference but if you are dropping a subframe for some reason, they are really cheap to buy.
I have a brand new set... waiting for some more feedback so i can decide if I'll sell them or not :/
anytime you can make your car tighter and closer to original spec has to be a good thing, will it make your car faster No! will it make it feel tighter and better aligned yes! and yes placebo but cars around 30yrs old that have been well used (tracked) should benefit from any suspension tweaks
hard to tell the difference.
I think if your car has been tracked a lot and engine been in and out a few times for maintenance or modifications these surely must help bring it back to a closer spec, but like I mentioned earlier I dont think they will make the car faster but should help making it tighter
Just to chime in. There were a couple points I had like on the picture above where I had to coax the body a tad to get them center for the collars and colt to seat in. I felt a subtle but positive improvement in the way the car handles bumps and general steering reaponse.
I do remember reading that thensx was a big reason spoon designed these collars as there was a point on the subframe where it wasn't even contacting the body. You'll notice the difference in thickness of the collars when you receive them.
It's a fun project, with benefits that enhance the nsxs characteristics.
I do remember reading that thensx was a big reason spoon designed these collars as there was a point on the subframe where it wasn't even contacting the body. You'll notice the difference in thickness of the collars when you receive them.
It's a fun project, with benefits that enhance the nsxs characteristics.
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