The Shop San Bruno - New Hunter in ground alignment rack

[syam]

Here you go. That's what I was trying talk about but I am no expert so can't express it out.

Thanks broinkrist, salute you!!


broinkrist would you agree if the the outer link was turned all the way to one side, the ball joint might not able to take up the mis-alignment since there is no more movement?

You should reply with the entire quote next time and you clearly missed the point where I stated that:

THE ALIGNMENT OF THE ARROWS DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE THE BALL JOINT ON THE OUTBOARD SIDE IS DESIGNED TO TAKE SLIGHT MIS-ALIGNMENTS. As long as the arrows are not wildly off, then there is no problem. Ball joints like this are designed to take up a large degree sweep of mis-alignment. In fact, as the suspension travels up and down, this angle constantlly changes. How much it changes depends on the exact suspension geometry. If the arrows are 45degrees off, then you will most likley have a problem. If they are 5-10 degrees off, they will be off to the eye, but should not be a problem.

So in conclusion:
1) Did The Shop San Bruno do the alignment correctly? Yes.
2) Do the arrows have to line up for a correct alignment? No.
3) Should they spend the extra few minutes to make sure they line up? Up to them. Extra time spent on unnecessary details is extra $$ wasted. However, with the additional time taken to appease this member, in hind-sight, they should have aligned the arrows.
4) Are you also correct in saying that the arrows should be lined up? Tecnically yes, although this has no effect on toe measurement.
5) Are you entitled to say a shop does not know how to do an alignment because they did not line up these arrows? Sure, you are entitled, but you are wrong.

 

[soyeah81]

You should reply with the entire quote next time and you clearly missed the point where I stated that:

THE ALIGNMENT OF THE ARROWS DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE THE BALL JOINT ON THE OUTBOARD SIDE IS DESIGNED TO TAKE SLIGHT MIS-ALIGNMENTS. As long as the arrows are not wildly off, then there is no problem. Ball joints like this are designed to take up a large degree sweep of mis-alignment. In fact, as the suspension travels up and down, this angle constantlly changes. How much it changes depends on the exact suspension geometry. If the arrows are 45degrees off, then you will most likley have a problem. If they are 5-10 degrees off, they will be off to the eye, but should not be a problem.

So in conclusion:
1) Did The Shop San Bruno do the alignment correctly? Yes.
2) Do the arrows have to line up for a correct alignment? No.
3) Should they spend the extra few minutes to make sure they line up? Up to them. Extra time spent on unnecessary details is extra $$ wasted. However, with the additional time taken to appease this member, in hind-sight, they should have aligned the arrows.
4) Are you also correct in saying that the arrows should be lined up? Tecnically yes, although this has no effect on toe measurement.
5) Are you entitled to say a shop does not know how to do an alignment because they did not line up these arrows? Sure, you are entitled, but you are wrong.

broinkrist,

You should consult with NSX engineers regarding the 45 degrees off thought.

Kris79, MikeC and Washabis2k, hopefully your arrows are not off by 45 degrees or more.

 

[Ko-nsx]

Excellent read.

 

[Dhalsim]

Excellent read.

more to read

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/172455-Arrows-on-my-NSX?p=1696377#post1696377

 

[soyeah81]

more to read

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/172455-Arrows-on-my-NSX?p=1696377#post1696377

Roger,

You are hijacking MikeC's thread. Just kidding! But your thread really confirmed that the arrows show be always pointing each other.

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after you have done so many alignments you kinda can eye it, i used to do just for fun after a camber kit or toe bolt install just to see how well i can get it in spec with out a machine, just saying.


But anyways, i have gone to the shop san bruno for my alignment on my nsx also. My arrows dont point exactly at each other but my print out is in spec and the car drives better so im happy. Unlessa honda engineer that designed the nsx or alldata says the arrows have to point exactly at each other then i really dont care if they point or not.

Kris79,

I think you can go back to "The Shop" and have Matt realigned your NSX in "proper way". Quote from greenberet another NSXPRIME member, "Kaz is an ex-Honda R&D engineer withF1, Indy/CART background. He worked in Honda’s Formula 1 team with Ayrton Senna."

Here are Kaz's articles.

http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?593-Alignment-01
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?395...ent-Service-03
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?211-Alignment-04

See how tiny degree was off between the two arrows on the rear toe control arm in Kaz's article. But Kaz still said "Looks like someone with not much experience on NSX alignment carried out the process in the past. These two arrows at the rear toe control arm should be lined up otherwise, the ball joint won’t have enough travel under certain conditions." Oh wait, did he just mentioned someone(The Shop San Bruno, IMO) with not much experience (I would say knowledge) on NSX alignment carried out the process? So Matt, now I can say you are clearly lying because a NSX engineer proved that you really learned the proper way of doing NSX alignment from me.

Kaz also said "Always important to align the two arrows at the rear toe control arm." When he said "ALWAYS IMPORTANT", I think he is really serious about it.


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i contacted mike harvy honda/acura and talk to their tech and service guys, they said the arrows do not mater as long as you have them within spec when on the alignment machine if you want you can call and ask them, albert (650) 579-6800 .

May be you should complain with Albert's manager at Mike Harvey Acura that Albert gave you wrong information.

 

[soyeah81]

I've had all of my cars aligned and serviced at The Shop San Bruno and I've never experienced any issues with their work. They are clean, thorough, and very customer-service oriented. I was there that day and in all honesty, the argument lasted no longer than 10 minutes. The owner of the red Nsx, I feel, was being unreasonable with his attitude and Matt was being as professional as possible to accommodate him. I recall Matt trying to formulate a solution with the owner, and the owner continuously laughing in his face and constantly belittling the mechanics there.

I've never had a single problem with any of the alignments performed on my car, including multiple alignments done on my Nsx due to height changes and wheel swaps. Even til now, I've never seen a single post here on prime regarding a "proper" Nsx alignment with the arrows pointing at each other. Either way, I'm going to continue bringing all of my vehicles to The Shop San Bruno because of their friendliness, accommodations, and their capability to perform mechanical and diagnostic work on my cars.

Another +1 here for all of my experiences there. Plus! The new in ground alignment rack works amazing for lowered vehicles. Virtually no chance of damaging your front lips and rear diffusers.

First of all to answer your reply to my post that you taught Matt and his team how to do alignments, couldn't be farther from the truth, because I have had my NSX aligned by The Shop many times when they had the above ground Hunter Alignment rack.

Secondly, its not clear that Matt is lying.

Thirdly, I know many of Matt's customers some who track their cars. some that are daily drivers and some that are garage queens and they all have their alignments done at The Shop.

Fourthly, let's just chalk this up to experience and that you already made it clear that you will never go back to The Shop for any service or alignment ever again.

Fifthly, why don't you find a shop that you can recommend for an alignment or open up your own alignment shop, since based on your two posts, you're clearly an expert.

Sixthly, the end.

Mike

Now, who was belittling who? Apparently you all (Matt's friends) were belittling me because I am not a mechanic nor am I a NSX engineer. You trusted "The Shop"? I am sorry but you just made a huge mistake.

 

[MikeC_587]

soyeah81 - what is your point quoting mine and WashabiS2K posts that were posted four or five days ago? Did it take you that long to conclude that we might be belittling you? You already apologized in post #33 after you incorrectly concluded that I was attacking you and WashabiS2K called you a jerk. See posts #12 no where does WashabiS2K call you a jerk and post #32 no where am I attacking you.

Regarding your post where you are recommending United Performance, I'm curious to know, did you actually have an alignment done on your NSX at United Performance. If you did, then why don't you start a new post with your recommendation and share your positive experience that you had?

A quote from my post #32

Fourthly, let's just chalk this up to experience and that you already made it clear that you will never go back to The Shop for any service or alignment ever again.

I increase the font size for your benefit, please read it and move on.

Thank you,

Mike

BTW, I can't speak for WashabiS2K, but, in no way was my post (#8) had intentions of belittling you.

 

[soyeah81]

soyeah81 - what is your point quoting mine and WashabiS2K posts that were posted four or five days ago? Did it take you that long to conclude that we might be belittling you? You already apologized in post #33 after you incorrectly concluded that I was attacking you and WashabiS2K called you a jerk. See posts #12 no where does WashabiS2K call you a jerk and post #32 no where am I attacking you.

Regarding your post where you are recommending United Performance, I'm curious to know, did you actually have an alignment done on your NSX at United Performance. If you did, then why don't you start a new post with your recommendation and share your positive experience that you had?

A quote from my post #32

Fourthly, let's just chalk this up to experience and that you already made it clear that you will never go back to The Shop for any service or alignment ever again.

I increase the font size for your benefit, please read it and move on.

Thank you,

Mike

BTW, I can't speak for WashabiS2K, but, in no way was my post (#8) had intentions of belittling you.

Mike,

I'll will take your advise and not response to this thread any more. Good night!

 

[syam]

This is absolutely ridiculous.

You preach with absolute certainty that you are right about this arrow pointing towards eachother issue, yet you really have no knowledge of the subject manner, and no real understanding of WHY these arrows should or shouldn't be pointing at eachother.

I am sure that the NSX suspension designers built in significantly more than say, 5 degrees of extra play in the ball joint. That would be more than 5 degrees in both directions of rotation BEYOND what the maximum rotation of the ball joint would be under the entire motion range. Engineers don't go and design something with a margin of 110% of the maximum operating windows. They go around 175-200% at least to be sure not to have issues with their designs. I am also sure that If I talked to Kaz about the design principals of this toe link (which would be an absolutely boring conversation), we would come to the same conclusion that the arrows do not necessarily have to be exactly lined up, but they are there so that people like you, and other technicians who do not know why these arrows should be aligned would align them based on instruction, not on actual knowledge.

I would much rather talk to him about the trials and tribulations of building the first complete aluminum suspension setup with compliance links and the engineering and design that went into that in the late 80s when technology was leaps and bounds further behind then it is now. After that, I would like to discuss with him the design and engineering behind the aluminum chassis and how they used the Crey supercomputer to analyze the torsional stiffness of the chassis. Then 1 million topics later, I will ask him about the toe links and that conversation will last about 1 minute.

So go on believing that you are right and that the other members here who brought their cars to "The Shop" are stupid and made a huge mistake trusting them to do the alignment.

And just for your enjoyment, I have a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. Masters in Automotive Engineering. Designed and built 2 completely custom tube frame race cars, so I may know a little bit about the subject. Not as much as Kas, but enough to know the arrows on the damn toe link do not have to be exactly lined up because they will have enough play built in.

 

[soyeah81]

This is absolutely ridiculous.

You preach with absolute certainty that you are right about this arrow pointing towards eachother issue, yet you really have no knowledge of the subject manner, and no real understanding of WHY these arrows should or shouldn't be pointing at eachother.

I am sure that the NSX suspension designers built in significantly more than say, 5 degrees of extra play in the ball joint. That would be more than 5 degrees in both directions of rotation BEYOND what the maximum rotation of the ball joint would be under the entire motion range. Engineers don't go and design something with a margin of 110% of the maximum operating windows. They go around 175-200% at least to be sure not to have issues with their designs. I am also sure that If I talked to Kaz about the design principals of this toe link (which would be an absolutely boring conversation), we would come to the same conclusion that the arrows do not necessarily have to be exactly lined up, but they are there so that people like you, and other technicians who do not know why these arrows should be aligned would align them based on instruction, not on actual knowledge.

I would much rather talk to him about the trials and tribulations of building the first complete aluminum suspension setup with compliance links and the engineering and design that went into that in the late 80s when technology was leaps and bounds further behind then it is now. After that, I would like to discuss with him the design and engineering behind the aluminum chassis and how they used the Crey supercomputer to analyze the torsional stiffness of the chassis. Then 1 million topics later, I will ask him about the toe links and that conversation will last about 1 minute.

So go on believing that you are right and that the other members here who brought their cars to "The Shop" are stupid and made a huge mistake trusting them to do the alignment.

And just for your enjoyment, I have a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. Masters in Automotive Engineering. Designed and built 2 completely custom tube frame race cars, so I may know a little bit about the subject. Not as much as Kas, but enough to know the arrows on the damn toe link do not have to be exactly lined up because they will have enough play built in.

Not responding but clarifying. In no where in my comments call them "stupid".

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Members,

Let's just chalk this up to experience and stop discussing these arrows or how many degree allowance as the NSX engineer confirmed they should always aligned.