USA Downgraded.

[BD]

I use to lean Republican, but I have a distaste for the bible thumping ones....

Not trying to bring religion into this one, but I had an interesting encounter with an old friend. He said the Bible thumping people are just as bad the the Jihadists, so I asked him a question.

"Let's say you are right that 1 out of 10 murders had the killer scream Allah Akbar or Jesus the great, in fact, I'll be even more generous with the % assumption by making it 3 out of 10; if that is the case, does that means Atheists are responsible for 7 out the 10 murders? He didn't know what to say.

I used that scenario because people like to point figures. I blame Bush for certain things even as a conservative, but my over all feeling for him is positive.

The truth of matter is, like any house hold, if the credit holder over spends, his/her credit rating will go down regardless if this person makes his payment on time.

For example, during the mid 2000's when the economy was doing great, with the NSX and S2k financing combined with my line of credit for the business, I couldn't get my average score to pass 690 even though I was pulling in over $100k a year, and I made all of my payments on time with my business cards paid off every month. But it will always be full right after it is paid because of restocking payments. It comes down to debt to income ratio, and at the current rate, the Federal Government can only afford to pay the interest. That is a major burden imposed onto every US citizens.

Here is a good quote:


"If the US Government was a family, they would be making $58,000 a year, they spend $75,000 a year, & are $327,000 in credit card debt. They are currently proposing BIG spending cuts to reduce their spending to $72,000 a year. These are the actual proportions of the federal budget & debt, reduced to a level that we can understand." - Dave Ramsey

Things has to change. I don't care if it is Republicans or Democrats who does it, it cannot go on.

This is a matter of national security. What ever Barney Frank said on CNN about the 250 billion military cuts can kiss my behind. The Federal government's job is to protect the US, policing interstate commerce, and make sure our currency is not being manipulated. THEY HAVE FAILED ALL THREE - with the democrats want to cut military budgets while our sworn enemies are getting stronger and own most of our debts. That naiveté will get all of us in trouble very soon.

Why do you think the Chinese government is so willing to lend us money? We borrow their money, buy their goods, and have the pay them massive interest on the goods we bought from them with the money we borrowed from them. It is a win win situation for them. I cannot fathom why the last class of congress couldn't see that.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Not trying to bring religion into this one, but I had an interesting encounter with an old friend. He said the Bible thumping people are just as bad the the Jihadists

Remember the Crusades?

 

[BD]

Remember the Crusades?

I remember learning about the crusade. But if you want to use that as an example, I can say, remember the slavery? We are in the 21st century, not 11th/12th century.

It's like asking the black people, do you know which party freed the slaves? And which party opposed to the idea? Almost the entire black community think it's the Democratic party instead of the Republican party.

It doesn't matter what happen in the past when people are illiterate and manipulated by those in power in the name of religion. It matters today as the society has evolved to the current era, where in westernized Christian nations are the ones that offers democracy/republic political systems. As nations shying away from Christianity towards secularization, their politicians uses tactics of unsustainable entitlements to buy votes so they can stay in power - The sad thing is American politicians are using the same tactics; the Democrats are trying very hard to manipulate the most basic foundation of our Constitution - We are free man to pursuit our own happiness to the best of our ability. What other people do does not matter to me - as long as we follow the basic moral laws.

The manipulation through man-made intellectual arguments is why we have such a mess. Who deserves what, who get to dictate who deserves what. Who knows how to dodge taxes by befriend those who makes the rule - and is willing to be demonized by those asses they kiss so they can keep their wealth.

Everything has gone up in cost, from energy, healthcare, food, etc, all because of doing of politicians. Free market and competition will drive the cost down, not government intervention, or I should say, manipulation. We have several oil reserves rivals that of Saudi Arabi but we're not allow to tap into it because of the environmentalists. We have the biggest coal reserves but green energy is the way to go, even though we have clean coal technology. We have the best farming system and land in the world but the smelt is more important, hence we have to create a dust bowl in central california. The hypocrisy is beyond believe.

Just out of principle, I will never buy GM and Chrysler products because they sucked up massive amount of taxpayer's dollars while producing mediocre products that requires more tax payer's dollars to sell as part of the incentives. It is not how things works. EVEN FERRERI FIGURED OUT by HIRING EX HONDA F1 ENGINEERS WILL HELP THEM BUILD BETTER CARS; it trumps the national pride behind the door as long as the final product shines.

As you know, China is doing really well, but ask those who lives in the rural area, they don't even have the option of moving into a metropolitan city because they are not allowed.

As less productive people we have voting for those who supports entitlement programs, once these politicians gets in and pass laws caters to them, everyone suffers. You cannot have artificially created class war far when the country's constitution guarantees everyone equal rights.

This is how retarded liberalism has evolved in our academic system. I'm involved in Marching band as a performer and a tech. Do you know bands in Navada and Arizona are NOT allow to compete? They can do shows and everyone gets a trophy. How retarded is that?

The meaning of patriotism changed after the cold war. People are less inform today than ever before, with bias internet blogs and media.

Here is one more example for entitlement fraud.

I have a friend who lives in Detroit and like me, a trumpet player. When the Detroit Symphony decided to cut pays for the musicians, my friend told me that he is going to picket with the musician protesters. I asked him a simple question of when was last time he bought tickets to see the symphony, he told me never. My response was, there you go, the best support you can offer them is not to protest, but through ticket purchase. When there is no money, there is no orchestra. I was shocked he couldn't understand what I was talking about. He wanted the city to pay for these musicians six figure salaries in a city where you can buy a house for less than $10k. Keep in mind that this guy is over 50 years old and "was" a music teacher at a Jr. High. Through that, I can also see why our academic system is so messed with people like that teaching our kids.

The society in general definitely has changed for the worse. I hope people wake soon.

 

[jond]

Not wanting to get involved in any economic arguments. The only thing I'll add to the discussion is the amount of bailout money totals...wait for it...

16 TRILLION. Granted, it's not the most objective of the websites but the actual numbers speak for themselves. What really surprised/irked/pissed/wtf'd me was the unbelievable total and the amounts given to foreign banks.

Wow. And the big question you have to ask how it was lent to them. If the banks can take that money and use their 10-15x lending ratio.

 

[bambbrose]

Wow. And the big question you have to ask how it was lent to them. If the banks can take that money and use their 10-15x lending ratio.

Why do you think interest rates are at record lows? I can go get a USED auto loan, on an NSX, a 20 year old vehicle, for 2.49% on a 5 year. That is significantly less than inflation. The banks have so much money that they are willing to give it away, not only for free, but essentially for less than if they kept it in a growth account of their own. Actually every one of my debts is currently below 4%. If you are paying more in this market you are throwing money away.

 

[SilverStone05]

Yeah but that was to avoid a total economic collapse. You know, like the one we are in now. :wink::biggrin:

Well hey - if we hadn't spent all that stimulus/bailout cash, things would be much much worse, lol.

 

[jond]

Why do you think interest rates are at record lows? I can go get a USED auto loan, on an NSX, a 20 year old vehicle, for 2.49% on a 5 year. That is significantly less than inflation. The banks have so much money that they are willing to give it away, not only for free, but essentially for less than if they kept it in a growth account of their own. Actually every one of my debts is currently below 4%. If you are paying more in this market you are throwing money away.

No doubt. A lot of that is the Fed will buy all the bonds we can print and will continue for the new 2 years.
But yeah, there's a BIG difference in $16Trillion of new money and $240Trillion of new money. Which one is it matters.

Well hey - if we hadn't spent all that stimulus/bailout cash, things would be much much worse, lol.

Keynes or Hayek. 100 year debate.

 

[BATMANs]

Amen to that! :smile:

The bible thumpers really put a bad taste on the republican brand. Such a joke that throughout our deficit they even gave any time to gay/lesbian and abortion issues.

 

[Gansan]

This article I find quite fascinating. It definitely describes some people I know.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44084236/ns/health-behavior/#.TkK_Ws1_98s

 

[SilverStone05]

This article I find quite fascinating. It definitely describes some people I know.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44084236/ns/health-behavior/#.TkK_Ws1_98s

Nothing to see here. Just more class warfare fodder.

And what a sampling Berkley chose....a whole 115 people.

Class has nothing to do with money.

 

[SilverStone05]

The bible thumpers really put a bad taste on the republican brand. Such a joke that throughout our deficit they even gave any time to gay/lesbian and abortion issues.

Agreed.

Stay out of my bedroom and stay mostly out of my checkbook and you're fine by me.

 

[swerve2007]

The operative term is supposed to be accruing interest. So, if this is not happening then the reality is that the disparity exists.

it is obvious that social security is going bankrupt but it is not happening because of its design but by tampering, so you cannot fault the system but the hand in the cookie jar. if the ss contributions deposited by the babyboomers over generations were left untouched, like they were supposed to be, accruing interest, then there would be plenty of reserves to pay for their retirement and we would not be talking about it now. as we all know the continued surplus was too easy to ignore by any previous administrations, let it be republican or democrat, but of course nobody remembers that now. These days it is much easier to blame it all on the evil entitlement programs that are ruining the country, not the pointless wars, empire-like behaviour or corporate greed.

 

[bee_are_bee]

it is obvious that social security is going bankrupt but it is not happening because of its design but by tampering, so you cannot fault the system but the hand in the cookie jar. if the ss contributions deposited by the babyboomers over generations were left untouched, like they were supposed to be, accruing interest, then there would be plenty of reserves to pay for their retirement and we would not be talking about it now. as we all know the continued surplus was too easy to ignore by any previous administrations, let it be republican or democrat, but of course nobody remembers that now. These days it is much easier to blame it all on the evil entitlement programs that are ruining the country, not the pointless wars, empire-like behaviour or corporate greed.

In a perfect world we wouldn't be having this conversation. The problem is we live in a world full of human beings. I do blame the entitlement programs because they are the ill-conceived brainchild of liberal statists decades ago. I, like you, blame the politicians entrusted with running the program properly. Human nature should tell us that trusting politicians to spend other people's money is an exercise in futility, for power given to them can and often does end up being used in their self-interest. Like all other human institutions, it reflects the inadequacies of those who created it.

 

[bee_are_bee]

Such a joke that throughout our deficit they even gave any time to gay/lesbian and abortion issues.

Haha, bro, that sounds like Bay Area politics to me!!

 

[BD]

This article I find quite fascinating. It definitely describes some people I know.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44084236/ns/health-behavior/#.TkK_Ws1_98s

Gansan, you do know that GE is the mother company of MSNBC, a company paid zero taxes the last two years, and will not pay any next year. No wonder they promote Obama and liberal agendas for free.

 

[Gansan]

Gansan, you do know that GE is the mother company of MSNBC, a company paid zero taxes the last two years, and will not pay any next year. No wonder they promote Obama and liberal agendas for free.

Wait, so you are saying that Obama is not taxing enough? I'm confused.

Anyway, I find it interesting because what the article describes I have noticed in people I personally know. I'm sure there are many nuances that affect each person's beliefs accumulated over a lifetime, but what's described does match reality to some extent, at least in my experience.

 

[lowellhigh79]

So I have two questions:

1) If the cost of Healthcare was cut in half overnight, what would happen to the cost of Medicare? Increased usage excluded.

2) A person making 1,000,000 paid 200,000 in taxes. What would happen if his taxes went up to 500,000 on the same 1,000,000. Would he work less (thereby making less overall and having less to spend), the same (thereby making less overall and having less to spend), or more (trying to get back to 800,000 after taxes again, same amount to spend).

Curious what you have to say about this.

 

[sahtt]

So I have two questions:

1) If the cost of Healthcare was cut in half overnight, what would happen to the cost of Medicare? Increased usage excluded.

2) A person making 1,000,000 paid 200,000 in taxes. What would happen if his taxes went up to 500,000 on the same 1,000,000. Would he work less (thereby making less overall and having less to spend), the same (thereby making less overall and having less to spend), or more (trying to get back to 800,000 after taxes again, same amount to spend).

Curious what you have to say about this.

These are interesting questions without definite answers. I'd say for 1) that if healthcare costs, as in every procedure, consultation, device, was cut by 10% in cost that medicare would probably spend about 5% less; due to the fixed costs associated with the bureaucratic/administrative elements, fraud, etc.

2) is far more interesting and much more complex topic. I think it depends on the individual and his situation. For instance, let's say I have $5M in the bank from selling a company and still have valuable skills I could put towards working or building another business. If I could earn $1M in salary and keep 800K, I would probably go for it but if I earn $1M and receive <$500k I might just live off the interest from my $5M instead - the incentive to work may be too low.

If that same individual was considering risking a large portion of the $5M to start another firm, whether he'd be able to retain $800k or <$500k of the firm's estimated $1M in earnings would be a major factor (this is obviously simplified since it wouldn't necessarily be taxed at standard income tax rates) to consider before risking that valuable capital.

On the other end, let's say we have 28 year old with a modest net worth who is kicking ass selling life insurance. He plans on taking home $1M (net) next year and has the strategy and skills to do it. If tax rates rise, potentially he will just work harder and earn a higher gross amount to maintain his objective. Then comes the question of how much productivity does the transfer of wealth to the government in form of taxes produce versus keeping the funds in the private sector? Sounds like a borderline loaded question but it must be considered in any serious debate. If its purpose is paying off the national debt so less taxes in the future are needed to pay interest and we all enjoy lower interest rates - maybe it's worth it.

 

[BD]

Danny, first off, the cost of healthcare will not be cut over night in half, the only thing that will be cut is the quality of care once the full implementation took place. So that scenario is not even worth of raising.

Second, it is not about the salary of the person. A person who is capable of pulling in $1 mill a year will either be someone in your line of work, or a small business owner. in your case, little more tax will probably not hurt you, but a small business owner will lose another $50k in income that could some people to work.

Dodge taxes is an established art. As I have indicated from a previous post, "friends" of politicians are willing to be demonized in public, but behind the door, their friends in the government will always create loopholes for them.

GE, Exxon, Verizon are just a few examples.

The question I have for you is, if Obamacare is so awesome, and you endorse it because it is supposedly designed to save people money, why is all the healthcare insurance premium skyrocketed last year. Obama himself said, "you can keep what you have if you like;" how are we going to keep what we like when companies are planning on dropping coverages like flies and I wouldn't be able to upkeep the the unusualy increase in rate? With 14 trillion on the tab - soon to be 16 trillion, do you still think it is a good idea for the government to take over the healthcare and put you in the same category as a postal worker? And speaking of the Postal Service, something I know for being a PO worker for seven years. They laid off 170k employees the last three years. The bureaucracy within the system sucked up all the money. The shipping cost for packages is no cheaper than UPS and Fedex, and as a tax exampt entity, they couldn't compete with competitors from the private sector, with people's 401K invested in them.

As I have always said in the past, there are only two things a government needs to do to control every citizen's lives, by controlling healthcare and energy. In the U.S, there is a third item on the table, guns.

Finally, if Obamacare is so awesome that the liberal communities think it is the best policies in the world and everyone should have it, why aren't politicians accept that as their own, and why are thousands of union members exampt from it?

The congressional budget office predicted this policies alone will bankrupt the US, and is being ignored by the White House, how do you explain their logics? Again, with $14 trillion on tab. Even if we return to the early GWB economy, keep our military to minimal and recall all of our soldiers from over seas, make the top 10% earners pay 100% taxes, we are still in a deep doodoo.

The wealth is created through the private sector, not public. When the private sector is suffers, somehow the public sector unions think they are bullet proof and is willing the wage thuggery wars against politicians that are willing to change things for the better.

First the crash of the housing values, and now stock market, with ever increase value in gold and devaluing U.S. dollars, pretty soon, a slice of cake will cost 100 bucks (with exagguration), do you think a minor surgery cost will dip below where it is at now?


Why do you think Greece is on the verge of collapsing. Does the riot in London shine any lights?

You have witness my business dropped from low five figure down to low four figures in matter of three years, mostly due to taxation on the goods I sell, and now with ever increase in government fees and additional tax burdens, I have no clue how I'm going to deal with the situation. My savings are gone, I cashed in my 401k with from seven years of postal service to take care some bills, and I'm still struggling.

Just remember this, if you think the government has the right to tax and spend, I hope you do know they take donation checks at the IRS office. Do make me pay for something that you think that is good for the people.

 

[Jimbo]

So I have two questions:

1) If the cost of Healthcare was cut in half overnight, what would happen to the cost of Medicare? Increased usage excluded.

2) A person making 1,000,000 paid 200,000 in taxes. What would happen if his taxes went up to 500,000 on the same 1,000,000. Would he work less (thereby making less overall and having less to spend), the same (thereby making less overall and having less to spend), or more (trying to get back to 800,000 after taxes again, same amount to spend).

Curious what you have to say about this.

Scenario 1 is tough to analyze because it wouldn't happen overnight and it's not realistic. How would it be cut in half? Would Doctors make half as much? etc.

Scenario 2 is different. We know exactly what would and will happen, we don't have to speculate. This has happened many times in our past.

"....When tax rates are raised, taxpayers are encouraged to shift, hide and underreport income. Taxpayers divert their effort from pro-growth productive investments to seeking tax shelters, tax havens and tax exempt investments. This behavior tends to dampen economic growth and job creation. Lower taxes increase the incentives to work, produce, save and invest, thereby encouraging capital formation and jobs. Taxpayers have less incentive to shelter and shift income."

Furthermore, if that person runs a small business (S-Corp), the effect is particularly amplified because...

"...Most small business owners pay taxes at the personal income tax rate. Small businesses have created two-thirds of all new jobs during the past four decades and virtually all of the net new jobs from the early 1980s through the end of 2007, the beginning of the past recession."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703514904575602943209741952.html

Increasing taxes on the rich will NOT increase revenue to the Treasury. On the contrary. This is a documented and proven fact. It remains a mystery to me why the left continues to push for something that will further hurt our economic recovery. The only conclusion that I have come up with is, that their reflexive and irrational views of the "rich" is so innate to their beliefs that they are willing to ignore any semblance of logic and common sense.


-Jim

 

[CL65 Captain]

The problem with socialism is sooner or later you also run out of other peoples money too.

sent from my Evo4

 

[Jimbo]

I'm old enough to remember that we went down this "tax-the-rich" road before.

Doesn't anyone remember the 1990 nonsensical "Luxury" Tax on yachts, corporate jets, jewelry and other expensive items like the NSX? I mean it's deja-vu all over all again when you hear Obama drone on about rich people and their corporate jets.

"...Congress estimated the luxury tax on boats, aircraft and jewelry would raise $5 million in revenue a year. The Congressional committee concluded the value of jobs lost in just the first six months was $159.6 million. Overall, the Treasury lost $24 million through lost income tax revenue, higher unemployment and welfare payments. In 1993, realizing the cost of just administering the program was higher than the revenue being collected, Congress repealed the tax...."

http://blog.heartland.org/2011/07/economically-illiterate-obama-re-corporate-jets/

Of course, in Obama's case, I believe he understands the economics all too well. He's targeting the rich, not because he thinks his scheme will bring in more revenue, he's targeting the rich to further stoke the flames of class-warfare. It's a political strategy to get more votes from their base.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[BD]

Here is the bottom line question and is tied into this credit down grade.

Let's just say every unsustainable programs the government creates are perfect in terms of service and has a 100% citizen satisfaction rate, do you think it will last when the money runs out?

Class war fair is artificially created to cause friction. Without friction, there is not need of a multiparty political system, and there will be no political corruptions.

This all comes down to one simple question: Is it our government's business to pay for anything for anyone, other than defense, international affairs, and the disables.

Those in so called poverty will forgo health insurance and other important goods and services in order to milk the government programs, but most of them get to enjoy NetFlex, Play Stations, air conditioning, multiple televisions, cell phones, and free tuitions.

This is a true incident: I saw a man bought two cases of water at a supermarket with food stamps, dump the water, recycle the bottles in the same parking lot, and walk right back into the same market and bought beer. Your tax dollars at work.

This is why we are on the road to bankruptcy. A mother of three who is on crack who gave birth to three kids through three different men get to stay home and pick her butt, but a mother of three who work two jobs to feed her children will have to pay all the taxes and receive no government help. If you want to talk about fairness, we can start there.

During the turn of century, the Chinese were addicted to opium and the nation fell apart. People got lazy, the nation was invaded, and there were no motivations to save the country from its citizens. We are becoming like that.

http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/...anding-out-free-crack-pipes-and-drug-needles/

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/cellphone.asp

You gotta be joking me.

 

[Jimbo]

Here's an excellent article on what we need to do. Ironically or sadly, the author was invited by Obama to speak at a conference.

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/laffer-obama-reaganomics-gop/2011/08/10/id/406893

Here are a few key points...

“You’ve got to get rid of all federal taxes in the extreme and replace them with a low-rate flat tax on business net sales, and on personal unadjusted gross income. That’s number one.

“Number two, you have to have spending restraint. Government spending causes unemployment, it does not cure unemployment.

“Number three, you need sound money. Ben Bernanke is running the least sound monetary policy I’ve ever heard of," Laffer said.

“Number four you need regulations, but you don’t need those regulations to go beyond the purpose at hand and create collateral damage. The regulatory policies are really way off here.

“And lastly you need free trade," Laffer said. "Foreigners produce some things better than we do and we produce some things better than foreigners. It would be foolish in the extreme if we didn’t sell them those things we produce better than they do in exchange for those things they produce better than we do.”

-Jim

 

[NSX GT]

Well, I didn't get a chance to read through everyones novel, but it's only going to get worst. We are never going to get out of this economic mess unless we do the following:

*Get out of other countries and get our military back home.
*Stop giving away our money to other countries
*Get Banks to help home owners that are under water to prevent further foreclosures.
*Govenment needs to get their a$$ together take care of business, not politics.
*Job creation.

Experts predict 2012 to be the worst year falling into another recession, and will not see a recovery until 2015 at the earliest. Stats show 1 in 4 homes are upside down in the US.

Until we solve these main issues, we will always be downgraded from here on out. Raising the debt ceiling is not the answer anymore. Need to start cutting back.