2nd Generation R8 vs NSX

[N Spec]

hence the "relative" thrown into that sentence. :wink:

however, it wasn't a super serious statement.

much like the "Hypercar" discussion we had a few weeks back...

I knew or hoped you couldn't be serious with the definition. I think the new NSX is more exotic than the first NSX, even if it is made in America vs. Japan. It meets many if not most checklist items for an "exotic" car.

To say that a car made or assembled in America can't be exotic is narrow-minded. Also, the powertrain is still being built in Japan from what I understand.

The iPhone is designed in America but built in Asia across various *developing countries, but it's viewed as a high-end, luxurious phone by most of the public thanks to Apple's brand image.

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a Ducati 1199 R motorcycle makes 170 horsepower per litre by comparison. and weighs under 400 lbs. :smile:

God bless the Italians, they really know how to get shit done...

And the BMW S1000 and Yamaha R1 make over 200 hp per liter all motor.

I sense some bias in your posts with Italian superiority. Let me shine some light here, as I am not as biased, but more atuned to what's actually going to. Read these two links:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/59527-Something-I-read?p=530642&viewfull=1#post530642

http://autoweek.com/article/car-rev...maranellos-most-powerful-production-v8-ever-0

Here are the highlights of the two sourced articles:

Again jokingly, “Ferrari lured most of our F1 Engineers to design engines for their F1 and road cars - After our (Honda) withdraw from F1 in 1992. Mr. Gato (Head of Honda V10 and V12 F1 Engine Program between 1988 to 1992) used to often called me from the Ferrari factory (where he was working) and telling me they really should slap a big H on the Ferrari's Engine Block and Ferrari F1 cars were powered by Honda.”

If you have seen pictures of the 458's interior, you might have wondered when--and more to the point, why--Ferrari hired Honda's design team. Certainly, the minimalist dashboard is a marked departure from an elegant, analog past. Wrapped in hand-stitched leather, it features an instrument cluster flanked by two air vents that resemble miniature home entertainment speakers, or perhaps Darth Vader's air inlet

So, God bless Ferrari for recruiting Japanese engineers and Honda interior designers! You think it's coincidental that Ferrari suddenly started getting better after the NSX was introduced by Honda in the late 90s? Ferrari miraculously develop 115 hp/liter+ engines that are more reliable than the 308 or 348? The Ferrari interior/build quality improved. The 458 LCD screen speedo and minimalist interior isn't reminiscent of what Honda has been doing with their recent cars or the NSX?

 

[fastaussie]

The iPhone is designed in America but built in Asia across various *developing countries, but it's viewed as a high-end, luxurious phone by most of the public thanks to Apple's brand image.

while this is true, phones are very accessible to just about anyone. the average 9 year old has an iPhone these days.

a $150,000 automobile is not accessible to the average person. that's not a great analogy.

I knew or hoped you couldn't be serious with the definition. I think the new NSX is more exotic than the first NSX, even if it is made in America vs. Japan. It meets many if not most checklist items for an "exotic" car.

even though i was joking about the literal definition, one of the major factors of an exotic car is usually that it hails from Europe. Japanese cars have a reputation for being far too sensible to be exotic. a moniker that forever haunted the original NSX as you may recall?

Exotic depends on the person. Exotic to me means exclusivity because its high priced. The qty sold is just means how popular it is. At 160k NSX is exotic to me and many others but its not popular because most would rather buy a Ferrari for 160k because its just more popular.

i think your definition of "exotic" is the same as most. exclusive, high performance, and high priced.

I think it's hard to label anything made by Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus exotic, based on the rest of their line-up of extremely non-exotic and very affordable cars (with the exception of the LFA). when people think Honda, they don't think Formula 1 or Daytona, they think Accords, Civics and CRV's. when people think Toyota, they think Camry's and Corolla's. when you mention Formula 1, the average person thinks Ferrari.

Ferrari, Lamborghini, anything Italian, and McLaren, Audi and Porsche, etc., all produce a high percentage of exotic or high performance vehicles in their range. and they all race extensively or are very involved in racing at the highest levels. Audi has been dominating LeMans for good while, Ferrari is Ferrari, Lamborghini is Lamborghini, Porsche is of course Porsche. these companies are all synonymous with racing and high performance. I think that makes it very easy to call their cars exotic, as they are the very definition of the term, therefor they don't have to convince anyone, the brand alone sells R8's, 911's and 458's.

the second coming of the NSX will either prove or disprove this theory...

 

[N Spec]

Even though i was joking about the literal definition, one of the major factors of an exotic car is usually that it hails from Europe. Japanese cars have a reputation for being far too sensible to be exotic. a moniker that forever haunted the original NSX as you may recall?

This is the most debated checklist of "sensible." By all logic, it's a rather insulting and asinine guideline as it is asking a product to be flawed to be considered exotic. However, the 458 is rather sensible in many aspects (reliable, daily drivable), so it's no longer an exotic? The R8 is definitely very sensible in terms of economics and parts appropriation, so it clearly not exotic in that term either.

I simply don't discriminate based on brand or privilege of exotic or high-end labels based on country of origins. McLaren, Audi, Porsche, Lambo and Ferrari have all made inferior products at one point or another just as Apple has too.

It's about the final product review and grade, so we shall see if the second coming of the NSX shall measure up...

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And my point with Apple is that if you see the typical iPhone user and tell them your phone is crap because it was made in China, then they would probably look at you like you're crazy.

 

[fastaussie]

i didn't say a car had to be flawed to be considered exotic, i said that it usually has to hail from Europe. flawed would be your own personal perception. what you may consider a flaw, others may call character or soul?

the 458 isn't a very sensible car, it is a mad, mad machine with one purpose in mind. Ferrari's aren't especially sensible. they are certainly more refined than they used to be, but no one would call a Ferrari sensible. a Ferrari is about as sensible as a Lamborghini. Ferrari's aren't designed for keeping ice cream cool in the trunk of the car the way a Honda is, that's not what a Ferrari is about. or keeping sound down inside the cabin. if anything Ferrari would channel it right into the cabin. just as Ducati superbikes aren't especially comfortable, and they leave the engine vibration in whereas the Japs and Germans take it out. the Italian way is very different from the Japanese way, very. the German way is very different yet again. the English way yet again different. i would describe their general individual styles as:

Italian - 100% raw, unfiltered and unadulterated
Japanese - sensible and refined, easy to live with
German - at times overly refined and overly engineered (performance divisions = mad)
English - innovative, refined and elegant

I am slightly biased to the Italian way of engineering, just as you are completely biased to the Honda way. i have owned dozens of Honda (and Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki) motorcycles, as well as many Ducati's, Triumph, MV Agusta's and KTM's. i have professionally raced most of these brands also, however most of my time was spent with Suzuki. i have also owned several Hondas, a Prelude SH and two NSX's in my own personal life. and i have bought my Mum both an Accord and a CRV. i have driven many other Honda's in my time. I've also owned an MR2, a 300ZX, and two Infiniti G35's. i have also owned several Ferrari's. and i have driven every recent mid-engine Ferrari in the last 20 years. i have also driven almost every BMW M car, almost every Porsche 911, Cayman, Cayenne, etc. throw in all the good Audi's as well, and so on. i currently have 4 Ducati's, a Triumph and a KTM dirtbike in my garage. based on the last 20 years of my automobile driving experience both personally and professionally i would argue there is nothing like the way the Italians do it for feel, feedback, noise, exhilaration, etc. I'd say they are unrivaled in the raw and visceral nature of their automobiles, especially Ferrari and Ducati. their racing first mentality clearly shows through. that's my opinion, i think you'll find most would agree. that is the reason Ferrari and Ducati will always be who they are and at the top of the heap, the Italians bleed motorsports, and their passion clearly shines through in the products they create.

i am however still open to the new NSX (while i personally am not big on the styling), several of the 911 variants (the GT3 is simply magnificent!), the Ford GT, and the McLaren and Audi offerings. and i was really hoping Lotus would produce a new Esprit a few years back.

p.s. that's great that Honda's interior decorating crew helped design the dashboard of the 458. I've never even looked at it, I'm always too busy unleashing 600 horsepower at 9,000 rpm.

p.s.s. back to the Audi R8, it's a bit more sensible than a Ferrari, but not quite Honda sensible. just as easy to live with these days however.

So, God bless Ferrari for recruiting Japanese engineers and Honda interior designers! You think it's coincidental that Ferrari suddenly started getting better after the NSX was introduced by Honda in the late 90s? Ferrari miraculously develop 115 hp/liter+ engines that are more reliable than the 308 or 348? The Ferrari interior/build quality improved. The 458 LCD screen speedo and minimalist interior isn't reminiscent of what Honda has been doing with their recent cars or the NSX?

both NSX's NA1 and NA2 produced 90 horsepower per litre. why didn't Honda produce 115 hp-per-litre if it was their technology? Ferrari did it, and produced it, no excuses. Honda can't hold a candle to Ferrari's racing pedigree and both companies are virtually the same age, Honda being 1 year older.

arguably Honda's (car) racing pedigree in the last 20 years has been pretty light. with Audi dominating Le Mans the last trillion years, the same can't be said for them.


your numbers on motorbike engines are also way off by the way, not sure where you're getting or how you're calculating them. the BMW S 1000RR is a very strong engine, which typically dynos in the 175 to 185 horsepower range. there are no numbers yet for the heavily revised 2015 R1, but the 2014 and older Yamaha is quite a slow pig, dynoing in the 145 horsepower range. and in addition to being a solid 40 to 50 lbs. heavier than the other literbikes, which is significant when you're talking about sub-450 lbs. wet weights. as both bikes are 1000cc, the hp-per-litre figure is very easy to come up with. so there you go, neither is over 200 hp-per-litre. see the attached dyno charts, the best i could find online during a 2 minute scan.

 

[BATMANs]

ex·ot·ic
iɡˈzädik/
adjective
adjective: exotic

• 1.
  originating in or characteristic of a distant foreign country.

now that the NSX will be manufactured in its entirety in America, by the above (relative) definition it does not qualify as "exotic", but all other European cars do, including the one this thread is about...




at 4.5 litres the 458 Speciale makes 133 horsepower per litre. does any other naturally aspirated road car engine make as much or more?

a Ducati 1199 R motorcycle makes 170 horsepower per litre by comparison. and weighs under 400 lbs. :smile:

God bless the Italians, they really know how to get shit done...

I think RPM for RPM the F458 is the highest.

However, the S2k had the highest HP/Liter NA for the longest time until the F458 came out at 110-120HP/liter.

Now if the S2k had Direct injection and matching compression ratio it would be reasonable to assume that it would have equal to greater HP/liter than even the F458 Speciale.

 

[fastaussie]

I think RPM for RPM the F458 is the highest.

However, the S2k had the highest HP/Liter NA for the longest time until the F458 came out at 110-120HP/liter.

at the time of the Honda S2000, it had the same specific output as the Honda RC51 motorcycle. the bike had a big V-Twin engine, but made 120 horsepower from 1000cc. not overly impressive for the bike, but an impressive feat for the car. the Ferrari 360 at the time was making roughly 111 horsepower per litre.

Now if the S2k had Direct injection and matching compression ratio it would be reasonable to assume that it would have equal to greater HP/liter than even the F458 Speciale.

that would have made for a 270 to 290 horsepower S2000 or a 400 horsepower NA1 NSX, both of which would have been very impressive...

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the numbers I've heard for the new 5.2 litre R8 V10 place it's horsepower-per-litre at 115, just below the Huracan with 117...

 

[BATMANs]

The NSX 2.0 should have had GT3 RS compression ratio, DI and displacement and take out or have as an option the Hybrid and/or turbos and I would have been happy.

that would have made for a 270 to 290 horsepower S2000 or a 400 horsepower NA1 NSX, both of which would have been very impressive...

 

[fastaussie]

i don't foresee any S or R models any time soon. but i think the most Acura would do is try to lighten the car up, i can't see them taking away the electric or turbo power. and i can't imagine the car getting much lighter with all the batteries and complicated systems on board.

if you want NA thrust, you'll have to go Lambo, Porsche or Audi...

 

[BB]

back to the Audi R8, it's a bit more sensible than a Ferrari, but not quite Honda sensible.

What a silly statement to compare one very specific car (the R8) to Honda's overall product line. What if we re-wrote this as....

"back to the NSX, it's a bit more sensible than a Ferrari, but not quite VW sensible."

 

[N Spec]

Italian - 100% raw, unfiltered and unadulterated
Japanese - sensible and refined, easy to live with
German - at times overly refined and overly engineered (performance divisions = mad)
English - innovative, refined and elegant

This is where we shall agree to disagree on the right balance of refinement and sensibility, as it's different for every individual. However I agree with your above assessment for the most part.

You can make all the excuses you want though, but Ferrari didn't get better until they started recruiting outside of their country (And that's when their engine got better) Very much like the American way. This is how the modern world is, the best in their fields globally pieced together to make an excellent product, no matter the country of origin.

Also I personal expect the level of refinement with that big hp. You may not, but I do. We clearly seek different balances of form versus function.

Lastly:

The S1000 and new R1 makes over 200 flywheel horsepower to the crank. Thanks for posting that dyno graph for the gentlemen's agreement locked 1 liter bikes. The Ducati has an extra 200 cc and makes:

The 1 liter Superbikes have been making 150-160 whp since 2003ish. They fluctuate every year by 5-10 hp depending on variables and dyno, but have been consistent for the most part. Some years Honda and Yamaha will make more than Suzuki and Kawasaki - vice versa. They all make relatively the same hp and performance, as no one really has enough balls and technology to extract super efficient performance from such power-to-weight titans. This was shown evident when a 600cc R6 with straps ran a 9 second 1/4 mile blazing pass most 1 liter superbikes!

If the new unleashed R1, free from the restrain of the gentlemen's agreement makes 200 like the S1000, then they both make more per liter than the Ducati my friend. The Ducati is a great bike, don't get me wrong!

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i don't foresee any S or R models any time soon. but i think the most Acura would do is try to lighten the car up, i can't see them taking away the electric or turbo power. and i can't imagine the car getting much lighter with all the batteries and complicated systems on board.

if you want NA thrust, you'll have to go Lambo, Porsche or Audi...

I agree with you on this one too. Unless Honda suddenly wants to unleash the V10 they had planned for the HSV for an extremely limited run, I don't think we'll see the electric motors or turbos being simplified.

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What a silly statement to compare one very specific car (the R8) to Honda's overall product line. What if we re-wrote this as....

"back to the NSX, it's a bit more sensible than a Ferrari, but not quite VW sensible."

He's blinded by the "Ferrari Experience" that the salemen try to sell, but I don't blame him though. It's like crack for car enthusiasts haha. I lust after the 458 myself.

 

[BB]

Ferrari, Lamborghini, anything Italian, and McLaren, Audi and Porsche, etc., all produce a high percentage of exotic or high performance vehicles in their range.

Audi exotic? Really?! Last time I visited my local Audi dealer there were no R8, S*, or RS* models to be found anywhere on the lot. All I saw was A3, A4, TT, and mommy SUVs. It's an entirely front wheel drive brand with AWD on some models. Literally 99% of Audi's I see on the road are just boring conservative looking sedans with headlights that draw attention to themselves.

 

[N Spec]

at the time of the Honda S2000, it had the same specific output as the Honda RC51 motorcycle. the bike had a big V-Twin engine, but made 120 horsepower from 1000cc. not overly impressive for the bike, but an impressive feat for the car. the Ferrari 360 at the time was making roughly 111 horsepower per litre.

the numbers I've heard for the new 5.2 litre R8 V10 place it's horsepower-per-litre at 115, just below the Huracan with 117...

I would still personally choose the Huracan over the R8.

Also for me, the 360 was right about when Ferrari started getting extremely good at what they deliver. Also probably around the same time they really started syncing up nicely with the recruited Honda engineers :wink:

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And I'm not baised towards Honda. I will give credit to any company that delivers a competent and superb product. If the new NSX doesn't deliver, then I will just really have to save up and truly depend on the 458 future ownership plans.

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Audi exotic? Really?! Last time I visited my local Audi dealer there were no R8, S*, or RS* models to be found anywhere on the lot. All I saw was A3, A4, TT, and mommy SUVs. It's an entirely front wheel drive brand with AWD on some models. Literally 99% of Audi's I see on the road are just boring conservative looking sedans with headlights that draw attention to themselves.

Apparently, by the most strict guidelines listed by FA and the likes of socierty, it seems only the Italians can make exotics and the Germans like Porsche and Audi are not exotic either For decades Lambo and Ferrari have been piecing together poorly built cars that makes exotic noise with a heftly price tag. Neither one of them got better until the Germans and Japanese introduced more sensibility into their lineup...

 

[2slow2speed]

Audi exotic? Really?! Last time I visited my local Audi dealer there were no R8, S*, or RS* models to be found anywhere on the lot. All I saw was A3, A4, TT, and mommy SUVs. It's an entirely front wheel drive brand with AWD on some models. Literally 99% of Audi's I see on the road are just boring conservative looking sedans with headlights that draw attention to themselves.

FWIW: Not getting into the Audi is an exotic or not, since that is just a slippery slope that is very subjective.

http://www.audi-motorsport.com/de/en/home.html

Keep in mind that most customers order their R8's or the S* or the RS* customized, in other words they don't sit around dealer lots waiting for buyers unless they were ordered by the dealer or a buyer backs out. Same goes for most BMW M* cars as well.

Same reason why there probably won't be many NSX's 2.0's sitting in dealer lots waiting for buyers. Someone who is spending north of 150K on a car, usually wants the car his/her way. As soon as the car shows up they will be picking it up from the dealer.

 

[fastaussie]

What a silly statement to compare one very specific car (the R8) to Honda's overall product line. What if we re-wrote this as....

"back to the NSX, it's a bit more sensible than a Ferrari, but not quite VW sensible."

you may be focusing on the literal too much and missing the whole picture? the R8 design philosophy is all Audi. the NSX design philosophy is all Honda. 458, you guessed it. these cars are all quintessentially the brand that manufactured them. the R8 is undeniably an Audi, the NSX an Acura, the 458 a Ferrari.

let me rephrase that silly statement - back to the Audi, it's a bit more sensible than a Ferrari, but not quite Honda sensible. or, back to the R8, it's a bit more sensible than a 458, but not quite NSX sensible. better?

holy cow, are you guys serious? i'll do my best to make this very brief...

You can make all the excuses you want though, but Ferrari didn't get better until they started recruiting outside of their country (And that's when their engine got better)

let me see if i have this right? so what you're telling me, is that Ferrari wasn't very good at making engines until they poached Honda's engineers?

is that a serious statement? seriously?

If the new unleashed R1, free from the restrain of the gentlemen's agreement makes 200 like the S1000, then they both make more per liter than the Ducati my friend. The Ducati is a great bike, don't get me wrong!

this isn't a motorcycle thread, but real quick. do you have any idea of what you're talking about? there has never been a "gentleman's agreement" for horsepower in motorcycles. ever. i know the Ducati is a great bike, as is the BMW, as are they all. i've ridden them all personally. you're right that the Japanese bikes have been pretty stagnant in the 145 to 160 horsepower range for the last decade, but that's about it. the Yamaha R1 and Honda are usually at the bottom end, the Kawi and Suzuki the top, in that order. the Euro bikes (Ducati, BMW, MV Agusta) have been ever increasing power throughout. pick up the latest motorbike mag off a shelf and read the latest comparison, please, educate yourself. you may find yourself reading something i wrote. :wink:

2ndly, i never said the Ducati made the most horsepower per litre of any current street motorbike, i merely threw it in there as a little contrast to the Ferrari's 133 hp-per-litre stat. the BMW would actually make the most, at 185 hp-per-litre, which is where the HP4 model usually dynos. as i said previous, the Ducati 1199R Superleggera has produced 205 horsepower from 1200cc, which equates to roughly 170 hp-per-litre.

N Spec, have you ever ridden a modern litrebike of any brand? i'm guessing no.

He's blinded by the "Ferrari Experience" that the salemen try to sell, but I don't blame him though. It's like crack for car enthusiasts haha. I lust after the 458 myself.

N Spec, have you ever driven a 458? i'm guessing no?

i'm not blinded by any salesman trying to sell me an experience. i have lived that experience personally countless times, that's why i appreciate the Italian way of making supercars.

Audi exotic? Really?! Last time I visited my local Audi dealer there were no R8, S*, or RS* models to be found anywhere on the lot. All I saw was A3, A4, TT, and mommy SUVs. It's an entirely front wheel drive brand with AWD on some models. Literally 99% of Audi's I see on the road are just boring conservative looking sedans with headlights that draw attention to themselves.

again, i believe i said that Audi among others "produce a high percentage of exotic or high performance vehicles in their range".

included in that statement was Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche and Audi. again, going a little too literal when it suits and missing the big picture. but, comparing Audi to say, Acura as a brand. which company appears more exotic in performance, price and exclusivity? comparatively speaking.

here's a hint, it's not Acura...

 

[Jinks]

Is it just me or does the R8 remind you of a beetle with a mid engine? I do not care of the hp numbers, NSX looks so much better in my opinion. Plus, as an owner of audis for a very brief period of time, good luck with maintaining the car! How often do you see 10 year old audis on the street? NOT NEVER....

 

[N Spec]

let me see if i have this right? so what you're telling me, is that Ferrari wasn't very good at making engines until they poached Honda's engineers?

is that a serious statement? seriously?

All behind the scene evidence points to this... Sure the 308 and 348 are exciting cars. But were they engineering marvels from Ferrari road cars at the time? How was their build quality? But let's just chalk to coincidence...

2ndly, i never said the Ducati made the most horsepower per litre of any current street motorbike, i merely threw it in there as a little contrast to the Ferrari's 133 hp-per-litre stat. the BMW would actually make the most, at 185 hp-per-litre, which is where the HP4 model usually dynos. as i said previous, the Ducati 1199R Superleggera has produced 205 horsepower from 1200cc, which equates to roughly 170 hp-per-litre.

N Spec, have you ever ridden a modern litrebike of any brand? i'm guessing no.

The regular version puts down 150 whp as evident, so by your standards that's actually 150hp/liter. The BMW clearly makes 30 more whp. 600cc bikes dyno around 110-115 whp. That would put them at ~190 hp per liter :wink:

I've owned over 10+ various bikes in my short lifetime, countless cars, and probably ridden examples of every bike possible as the bike community is very open and accessible:

So please don't try to discredit me with questions of ownership, driving, or riding experience, as I have a prolific experience for my personal collection.

lN Spec, have you ever driven a 458? i'm guessing no?

By your logic, if one gave a mentally disabled person the keys to a 458, then automatically that handicapped person is more capable and more perceptive than me now?

Don't take it or make it personal buddy. I'm not trying to insult you at all or call you disabled, but just because you've piloted a 458 extensively doesn't make you an automatic authority of what's good and what's bad. I value your input as long as it's civilized and rational. The whole point is that your self-appointed elitist mindset is mis-guided. Ferrari, Audi, Porsche, BMW, Honda, etc. have all made bad cars/products one point or another and they are not infallible. Not every Ferrari was fantastic just as most Hondas are just good enough for the teenage daughter or family man.

included in that statement was Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche and Audi. again, going a little too literal when it suits and missing the big picture. but, comparing Audi to say, Acura as a brand. which company appears more exotic in performance, price and exclusivity? comparatively speaking.

here's a hint, it's not Acura...

The big picture is I and many others on here are not brand whores. I care about the particular product in question. I'm not in the market for a sedan or SUV. So I could careless for any brand of those cars. You're letting brand image blind your opinion. If Nissan, GM, or even KIA made a mid-engine car next year that rivaled the cars that we mentioned and met my checklist, I would give credit where is due and consider that car for the future.

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Is it just me or does the R8 remind you of a beetle with a mid engine? I do not care of the hp numbers, NSX looks so much better in my opinion. Plus, as an owner of audis for a very brief period of time, good luck with maintaining the car! How often do you see 10 year old audis on the street? NOT NEVER....

It's not just you. The Germans love the elemental circle shape apparently with the 911, TT and R8 all channeling that element. Even the 350Z followed the bandwagon and it's a major reason I left the Z brand...

 

[Jinks]

911's look like frogs. The r8? Even worse. A very fat frog or toad.
It still amazes me even as a Honda owner that my 91 just had a compression test prior to sc install and compression is still 235+ psi on every cylinder. You just have to love Japanese quality even though it may not be the best styled in some cases.

 

[N Spec]

911's look like frogs. The r8? Even worse. A very fat frog or toad.
It still amazes me even as a Honda owner that my 91 just had a compression test prior to sc install and compression is still 235+ psi on every cylinder. You just have to love Japanese quality even though it may not be the best styled in some cases.

Well to go in line with what FA mentioned, the Italians are very wild with design, the Japanese more sensible with styling, and then the Germans, too sensible with styling.

 

[2slow2speed]

It's not just you. The Germans love the elemental circle shape apparently with the 911, TT and R8 all channeling that element. Even the 350Z followed the bandwagon and it's a major reason I left the Z brand...

I guess you are missing a key point, the average height of people in Germany is about 2 to 2 1/2 inches taller than the average height for people from Japan. (for which the NSX was clearly designed for)

My NSX fit me fine since I am Japanese on the other hand my brother in-law who is 6' 3" ~ 6'4" (German roots) felt cramped in the NSX (headroom as well as elbowroom). (it had the Type S bucket seats so even more headroom than the regular seats). My brother in law has no problems with headroom or elbowroom in a 911 or an R8. (That is with the proper driving position). So form follows function.

 

[N Spec]

I guess you are missing a key point, the average height of people in Germany is about 2 to 2 1/2 inches taller than the average height for people from Japan. (for which the NSX was clearly designed for)

My NSX fit me fine since I am Japanese on the other hand my brother in-law who is 6' 3" ~ 6'4" (German roots) felt cramped in the NSX (headroom as well as elbowroom). (it had the Type S bucket seats so even more headroom than the regular seats). My brother in law has no problems with headroom or elbowroom in a 911 or an R8. (That is with the proper driving position). So form follows function.

I don't think that's the case at all. I've had many 6'2+ friend fit fine in the passenger seat and then are surprised with leg room when they make the switch to driver side. Isn't there a rumor that Michael Jordan use to own an NSX? I think it's a matter of seat position as when I first sat in the NSX, my accompanying passenger said I'm too big for it and I'm average height, but it was because the seat was not properly adjusted yet.

2-3 inches in overall height would equate to about ~1.5 inches in torso or head space. That's not a huge disparity in creating the illusion of very circular/larger versus low slung. When I sat in the R8, it didn't give me the sense that there was vastly more space than the NSX for instance given the large size difference, even if there is apparently. Cars like the 300ZX and SW20 MR2 surprisingly allow much more space in comparison and they only sit about 1-2 inches taller than the NSX while still sitting lowering than the R8.

Also, I went to school for design and German design versus say Italian design is very elemental vs more anatomical or dynamic designs. You will find more minimalist shapes/approaches among their architecture and interior design also.

 

[Jinks]

I am 5'9" and 255 lbs. While I still squeeze myself into my nsx, I also own a 2002 bmw e39 which I also squeeze myself into. The E 39 is almost half younger then my nsx and it requires far more maintenance. It drives and handles awesome. Which is why I never sold it. But there are very distinct differences in quality of the two. German cars are indeed the pinnacle of engineering which is also their downfall. Over engineering= constant maintenance and specialized tools just to get things fixed. Is this a nsx forum or Bavarian forum anyway?

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I deal with this on a day to day basis in my personal job. Far more commercial appliances are making their way here from Germany and Europe. The break down rate of the equipment is very "frequent" and even though it may be warranties, it is still a hassle. Please show me a pristine Audi of any choice of 20+ years or more still on the road and I might reconsider.

 

[2slow2speed]

I don't think that's the case at all. I've had many 6'2+ friend fit fine in the passenger seat and then are surprised with leg room when they make the switch to driver side. Isn't there a rumor that Michael Jordan use to own an NSX? I think it's a matter of seat position as when I first sat in the NSX, my accompanying passenger said I'm too big for it and I'm average height, but it was because the seat was not properly adjusted yet.

2-3 inches in overall height would equate to about ~1.5 inches in torso or head space. That's not a huge disparity in creating the illusion of very circular/larger versus low slung. When I sat in the R8, it didn't give me the sense that there was vastly more space than the NSX for instance given the large size difference, even if there is apparently. Cars like the 300ZX and SW20 MR2 surprisingly allow much more space in comparison and they only sit about 1-2 inches taller than the NSX while still sitting lowering than the R8.

Also, I went to school for design and German design versus say Italian design is very elemental vs more anatomical or dynamic designs. You will find more minimalist shapes/approaches among their architecture and interior design also.

Seriously.

The number that I threw out there is average height. In Japan the average height is about 172 ~ 173cm. In Germany it is about 180cm. That is average, whenever you design a car you try to account for ranges.

You can be 6'2" and fit or not fit, depends on the proportion between torso and leg length. Add on top of that trying to wear a helmet to the equation and proper driving position, seatback in the proper 85-90 degreees. Did your friends who are 6'2" try that?

The most common complaint on many Porsche forums is that the Cayman does not provide as much headroom and elbow room as the the 911 series because of the different shape of the roofline as well as it's compact space because it is mid-engine.

Many folks on this very site had to remove padding from the bottom cushion of their NSX seats because they ran out of headroom.

Try wearing a helmet inside a Lamborghini Gallardo and be seated in the proper driving position, it is impossible, you have to tilt your head a bit to the side to fit without having the top of the helmet hitting the roofliner. Try the same on the same generation R8, no problem.

Since you posted Rick's (s4play) NSX and R8 picture ask him which car fits him better. I've met Rick in person and he is a tall guy, I can almost guarantee you that he will say that the R8 is better proportioned to his body height.

 

[BB]

Back to the R8, it's a bit more sensible than a 458, but not quite NSX sensible.

What's that supposed to mean? The NSX has a noticeably more exotic driving position than the R8 due to it's lower cowl and front hood line. You can clearly see this in the picture posted in this thread of the NSX and R8 sitting next to each other. The R8 looks more like a bloated sedan or GT car while the NSX looks more smashed and thus possibly impractical . If anything it's the R8 that appears more sensible in its overall design. The R8 says "hi there I'm a sportier, fancier version of an Audi sedan". The same cannot be said of the NSX.

included in that statement was Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche and Audi. again, going a little too literal when it suits and missing the big picture. but, comparing Audi to say, Acura as a brand. which company appears more exotic in performance, price and exclusivity? comparatively speaking..

Drink the marketing cool aid. You're grouping Audi together with Ferrari, Lambo, and McLaren when in reality Audi is the mass market luxury arm of VW. Relatively speaking Audi is closer to being like Acura than it is to being like Ferrari and McLaren.

In court of popular opinion you're of course totally correct. Even if the new R8 has inferior performance to the new NSX and costs $30,000 more I predict the euro-fans will line up to buy the R8 simply because Audi is cool at the moment. Rap stars drive them, they're often the brand of car parked out in front of the coolest clubs in Hollywood, and most of the people I see driving this brand are young and good looking. Figure out what these type of owners value the most in life and you'll understand the appeal of Audi.

 

[nsxtacey]

Why debate between the two, just get both lol
Would think both are lease able around 2k a month
Don't buy since both will come out with different version down the model's cycle.

 

[N Spec]

Seriously.

The number that I threw out there is average height. In Japan the average height is about 172 ~ 173cm. In Germany it is about 180cm. That is average, whenever you design a car you try to account for ranges.

You can be 6'2" and fit or not fit, depends on the proportion between torso and leg length. Add on top of that trying to wear a helmet to the equation and proper driving position, seatback in the proper 85-90 degreees. Did your friends who are 6'2" try that?

The most common complaint on many Porsche forums is that the Cayman does not provide as much headroom and elbow room as the the 911 series because of the different shape of the roofline as well as it's compact space because it is mid-engine.

Many folks on this very site had to remove padding from the bottom cushion of their NSX seats because they ran out of headroom.

Try wearing a helmet inside a Lamborghini Gallardo and be seated in the proper driving position, it is impossible, you have to tilt your head a bit to the side to fit without having the top of the helmet hitting the roofliner. Try the same on the same generation R8, no problem.

Since you posted Rick's (s4play) NSX and R8 picture ask him which car fits him better. I've met Rick in person and he is a tall guy, I can almost guarantee you that he will say that the R8 is better proportioned to his body height.

No, I'm not denying the NSX has limited space at all, which is why I brought up the example of MR2 and 300ZX of having better fitment/space but similar roof heights between the cars. And my friends leaned the seat all the way back to sit comfortably. They don't track either and nor would I let them use my car :redface:

Here's a better example. The latest and last gen Corvette looks much sharper/thinner/lower than the R8. It can fit larger Americans compared to Japanese just fine. So I can't buy the excuse of fitment for taller people when the average height in Germany is marginally higher than America's. There's really not that many people taller than 6'2 still even in today's modern age, we are talking about 95th percentile at true 6 foot mark and then near 99th at 6'4+.

It's like the arguments of DCT, of only 95% vs 5%. Sorry for the handful of people who are blessed with 75+ inches tall, but I think the perks are in their favor for many other things.