Basic FI tuning

[StGeorge]

1. I have a BBSC that was bascially bolted on by Mark and the killer.mdb file load--no additional tuning was done. Not smart and time to change that. I will be installing a wideband (FJO or other), but unfortunately, I have no background or knowledge regarding FI and all the issues. I will have it tuned by someone who does, but I would like to educate myself. Especially since FI seems to be a neverending tail chase.

Now, does anyone have any recommendations about one or two good sources, texts or otherwise. (I have read everything in this forum)

A few other questions please;

2 I am upgrading the fuel lines, pump and regulator (aka Jerry Johnson.) What fuel pressure should I aim for with the standard BBSC pulley? Are the 440 injectors enough?

3. What is the maximum but safe boost that can be run on an engine with stock internals?

4. Should I be using a colder plug?

Sorry for the lengthy questions. Quite a few of you have tremendous knowledge on this subject and this is scary landscape for a newbie.

 

[KGP]

Plugs
I was told same plugs by Jane Basch.

I will have it tuned by someone who does
With NSX specific FI tuning experience?

Here are the first questions you need to answer:
A. Do you have the original SS box?
B. Have you tested your fuel pressure at WOT on the dyno?
C. What year is your car?

 

[StGeorge]

I have a 92 (ie no throttle by wire, OBDII issues)

I just put in the new SS box. I was an early BBSC install. (June 2002)

Unfortunately, I do not have a baseline fuel pressure at WOT. My car has not been on a dyno yet. Is this info important PRIOR TO upgrading the fuel lines, pump, etc?

 

[WOODY]

.Unfortunately, I do not have a baseline fuel pressure at WOT

THIS INFO WILL DETERMINE IF UPGRADES ARE REQUIRED AT ALL. injector pulse width >40 & <80%, if you are getting fjo anyways get it before dyno so you can check calibration against lab grade sensor. fuel pressure gauge is good safeguard, boost gauge will let you know if belts are getting loose. check old ssbb map compatability with the new one, i don't think it is a 1:1 conversion.

 

[KGP]

What is the maximum but safe boost that can be run on an engine with stock internals?

Consider this: You have an OBDI car, and if you want to raise the boost, why not consider the AEM. Owners in your area will know if there is someone who understands tuning the SS box, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The fact is, the SS box is a proprietary item, and support for that item, at least at some point in time, must go through one single person - The Boss, aka Mark Basch. The AEM gives you infinately more control over tuning your NSX, and I'm sure there are tuners near by. Might check with Armando on that to see who did his. Personally, I wouldn't raise the boost any amount on your car unless I had the AEM, but I'm sure there are some who will disagree.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

1 step colder plug is used 99% of the time when a bolt-on FI kit is used on any marque.

The tuning goal is simple to understand, but getting there is not always easy. Usually your goal would be to follow the 12 line all the way to fuel-cut on your a/f plot. With most cars, this can be done with an upgraded pump, a boost dependant regulator, larger than stock injectors, and a piggy-back fuel controller such as the APEXi SAFC or VAFC. BUT with the NSX, tuners and installers are having some difficulty getting the stock ECU to react with any piggy-back controllers, so an ECU upgrade is the safest bet for tuning. Do research on the ECU upgrade topic.

When I tune, I research the max boost limit for internals for the car, set up the pump, and regulator, and injectors on the rich end, and turn up the boost (staying under the max) until the valley drops to around 12 on the line, and use a SAFC to lean out the peaks for efficiency. All done on a dyno of course, and with a high quality A/F meter.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Originally posted by StGeorge [/i]
1. I have a BBSC that was bascially bolted on by Mark and the killer.mdb file load--no additional tuning was done. Not smart and time to change that. I will be installing a wideband (FJO or other), but unfortunately, I have no background or knowledge regarding FI and all the issues. I will have it tuned by someone who does, but I would like to educate myself. Especially since FI seems to be a never-ending tail chase.

Now, does anyone have any recommendations about one or two good sources, texts or otherwise. (I have read everything in this forum)

A few other questions please;

2 I am upgrading the fuel lines, pump and regulator (aka Jerry Johnson.) What fuel pressure should I aim for with the standard BBSC pulley?





Standard Boost should be around 6Lbs, My pressure at WOT is 56lbs I don’t know if that is standard but it is adequate for now




Are the 440 injectors enough?


Enough for what?



3. What is the maximum but safe boost that can be run on an engine with stock internals?





That’s a loaded question, most running 6 lbs or so have had very little problems, but also most running higher boost are also running safe, it all depends on your tuning and engine management system.





4. Should I be using a colder plug?



Depends on your Boost.





Sorry for the lengthy questions. Quite a few of you have tremendous knowledge on this subject and this is scary landscape for a newbie.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

James,

Why are changing your fuel system now?? If I recall you are running a 6 lb kit, correct? Only after tuning and seeing you are running too lean would I take that step. I only run out of fuel above 8 psi, with the stock "good" OEM fuel pump setup. I guess I just think you have the cart before the horse.

Find out what your A/F ratios are, tune the fuel maps accordingly, then decide if you are having issues with any system on the car. Frankly with the 440's you should have enough fuel below 8psi from my experience.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[KGP]

1 step colder plug is used 99% of the time when a bolt-on FI kit is used on any marque.

Maybe so, but I simply repeated what I was told from the boss's boss. Unfortunately, owners can't just go reference something in an owners manual or website. And yes, I would assume the plug would depend on boost. I should have specified that mine was at 6 lbs.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

I just think you have the cart before the horse.

With any OEM NA motor converted to FI with a kit, or self made, you NEED the cart before the horse to CYA. You always want to error to the safe side considering the little cost involved compared to a blown motor. Example why on earth would you settle for an OEM pump? My god spend the $200 and upgrade, then you will save a few skipped heart beats every time you run it to redline, knowing that the fuel pressure will always be there.

Same goes for injectors, and 1 step colder plugs especially if you beat on the car, or do auto-x or track events. All of these things will keep your combustion temps at a safe level, thus reducing detonation chances. OEM parts with FI are just fine if you "show" your car, but if you "drive" it like it was meant, why cut corners. The NSX motor is picky enough with FI, so why give it an excuse to fail.

 

[StGeorge]

With any OEM NA motor converted to FI with a kit, or self made, you NEED the cart before the horse to CYA. You always want to error to the safe side considering the little cost involved compared to a blown motor. Example why on earth would you settle for an OEM pump? My god spend the $200 and upgrade, then you will save a few skipped heart beats every time you run it to redline, knowing that the fuel pressure will always be there.

Same goes for injectors, and 1 step colder plugs especially if you beat on the car, or do auto-x or track events. All of these things will keep your combustion temps at a safe level, thus reducing detonation chances. OEM parts with FI are just fine if you "show" your car, but if you "drive" it like it was meant, why cut corners. The NSX motor is picky enough with FI, so why give it an excuse to fail.

1. This was also my logic. I have read numerous posts that have reported the OEM fuel pump was "tired" or inadequate for the job; even with 6lbs boost. Granted I could evaluate the system first and see if it would be "adequate". However, I would like to kick it up to perhaps 8lbs and why take any chance.

When I tune, I research the max boost limit for internals for the car, set up the pump, and regulator, and injectors on the rich end, and turn up the boost (staying under the max)

What is the max safe boost limit on the NSX with Stock internals?
Do you do all the set-up work to get it right for 6lbs and then switch to 8lbs and start all over; or can I start with 8lbs and tune.

Similarly, where do you start with the fuel pressure and regulator?


2. The AEM certainly has Holy Grail potential; however, I continue to watch this from the sidelines. I am not yet confident that the learning curve is complete. When those brave and brillant few work out all the parameters, I will definately take that leap. In the meantime, I will have to stick with the SS box, despite its limitations. Finding a competent tuner with the experience and knowledge to set up an FI NSX will be a challenge on the east coast (FL) regardless of the system.


3. What is the downside to using plug that is one-step colder?

Thanks everyone!

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

2. The AEM certainly has Holy Grail potential; however, I continue to watch this from the sidelines. I am not yet confident that the learning curve is complete. When those brave and brillant few work out all the parameters, I will definately take that leap. In the meantime, I will have to stick with the SS box, despite its limitations. Finding a competent tuner with the experience and knowledge to set up an FI NSX will be a challenge on the east coast (FL) regardless of the system. [/B]

If you want first hand information on the AEM, you can talk to Mr. Mark Basch himself, or talk to Sean @ torquefreaks.com, he is one of the best AEM tuners in the country , he will fly out to you and tune your car.

3. What is the downside to using plug that is one-step colder?Thanks everyone! [/B]

Using a colder plug than needed you will loose some power.

Armando

 

[RP-Motorsports]

I do NOT know exactly what boost the NSX can take, but usually the first things to go are the ring lands, and lifting of the head due to weak head studs. The NSX rods should take a lot of boost, the open deck design like most VTEC Hondas start squirming around, so a drop in brace w/ holes helps. Some people fill it in completely. I would say that with some ARP head studs, it will be your pistons that will dictate boost limits. (considering proper a/f) With an untouched open deck, and good forged pistons, 10 psi would be ok I would think, if the open deck is dealt with, a substantial increase in boost could be had.

I think an 8 psi boost with a flat 12 afr would make you very happy for many years to come! I would NOT try to exceed that unless the motor is opened up and some cashflow was spent on strengthening the block.

You can start with 6 psi, tune, and then go to 8 psi, but you will need to start all over with tuning. If you plan on running 8 psi soon, why waste your time starting with 6 psi. Just go with 8, and hit the dyno with your stand alone ECU.

Colder plugs will not cause detonation as easily as stock. Also retarding ignition timing will also help stop detonation. Both will cause a bit of a loss in power (minimal), but you pick....... 1) peak #'s and a risk of losing a motor or 2) a motor that can go to redline all day long safely.

The ECU will be your key in having a safe motor. Talk with the experts mentioned above. They can tailor the settings via laptop to your needs. Remember your a/f ratio can be your friend, or the bully on the playground! Keep that your priority NOT just bhp.

 

[KGP]

I do NOT know exactly what boost the NSX can take
If we are just talking about a BBSC NSX, then it would be appropriate to talk in terms boost. But, if we are talking about FI'd NSX's in general, wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to the limits in terms of power (tq/hp) generated?

usually the first things to go are the ring lands
On a setup experiencing detonation, you're probably right. However, the only other failure of a bottom-end (related to FI boost) I recall actually reading about was GJ's OEM aluminum sleeves going out of round.

lifting of the head due to weak head studs
Weak as in all OEM studs are weak? Do you recall any failures? I would be interested to know.

the open deck design like most VTEC Hondas start squirming around, so a drop in brace w/ holes helps. Some people fill it in completely.
First, the deck itself, as I would think of it, is the mating surface. So, that's not going anywhere. So, I suppose you are referring to the sleeves? If so, what kind? OEM's? It has been debated a bit before, but there is evidence to substansiate that an open deck design using steel sleeves is more than adequete for levels at 500hp/450lb ft. Some of the decked sleeves appear like a great preventative measure. At the same time others have suggested that they might lower the detonation threshold at the same time.

I think an 8 psi boost with a flat 12 afr would make you very happy for many years to come!
Not if you go drive one of the monster turbo's. Sorry, just had to throw that in.

2. The AEM certainly has Holy Grail potential; however, I continue to watch this from the sidelines. I am not yet confident that the learning curve is complete.
Everyone has their opinion. If you flip yours 180 degrees you would have mine. Even recently there have been threads showing SS box problems, but I haven't seen any AEM tuned cars asking how to fix an AF problem.

 

[peiserg]

i think the problems with the ss box are related to fine tuning, which you will need with any system, vs. an inherent defect. Talking with the guys at SOS they've mentioned that yeah the AEM is a sweet package, but has so many parameters it takes a while to get it dialed in, and there have been problems related to cold starting. My ss controlled system did have some initial problems with stalling, which went away with a MAP change. Now, i don't know dick about tuning. all i know is i complained about it to MB, he said bring it in, and he gave it back and it doesn't stall and he said he changed the MAP a little. So probably the base upload needs to be fine tuned for each individual vehicle. would be nice to be 100% plug and play but each car is just a "little" different i guess. the best is to dyno tune i spose. but then again i don't know anything about tuning.

 

[StGeorge]

Anyone know any books that would be a good place to learn the fundamentals about all this. Eventually, it would be nice to have the knowledge to fine tune or trouble shoot after the experts have finished. It would also be nice not to have to learn the hard way by going through motors.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Tom,

I could not agree with you more in regard to safety and the approach to it. I agree with your philosophy completely. I would have not made the recommendation to James if I did not have an understanding of these systems and some experience at it.

I just went back and reviewed my log data. Here are a few numbers to support why I think the CYA factor is covered.

Stock engine, BBSC, NOVI2000, 10psi pulley , SSBox fuel management. Stock fuel pump, in good working order, (56K miles or so) 440 cc injectors. With the SSBox set as rich as it can go(13.8), I have 12:1 AFR at 8.5PSI. I have 10.2:1 AFR at 6psi. This is untuned at max available fuel. If an OEM fuel pump was pumping 10% less fuel volume it would still be in CYA territory.

The 10 psi pulley and the N2K are different then James' car since he has a 6 psi pulley and a NOVI1000 if I recall, unless he upgraded to a NOVI2000, frankly James' car would have more safety margin then the config I describe above.

The kit from GerryJ is $800 last I checked. Excellent kit, when you need it. I know GJ needs it with his monster configs.

I would spend $800, in this situation, like this:

$450 LM-1 Wideband + RPM cable
$50-80 get 02 sensor BUNG welded in
Do a test run and log AFR, Boost, RPM data to verify if I have a clue what I am talking about
Spend $300 with a tuner and a dyno

Review all the data and decide if you are really done or you want more.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[StGeorge]

Hey Larry,

You are a wise master; your approach is certainly logical. You also have an excellent memory. I do indeed have the N1000 and a 6lb pulley. I would like to go to an 8lb. I guess I should have posted these questions prior to spending the $940!!! for Gerry's system. My apprehension there was more a reflection of my ignorance in approaching these systems and tuning then actual need. (It does look cool though).

While off topic---why the LM-1 vs FJO, AEM,

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Hi James,

The LM-1 offers free air calibration, which is a nice feature, it is less expensive, and the main thing I like about it is the controller has 5 aux inputs that can be logged. I suggested the RPM adapter so RPM can easily be graphed during a logging session.

The FJO get RPM, AFR and has one aux input only to log. I chose boost by hooking up the OEM map sensor output to that FJO Input. Still really need to see Intake Air Temp, Exhaust Gas Temp, Knock sensors, and timing, although in regard to timing, this is really not available yet if you are using any piggyback setup like the SSBox. It has been stated that ODBII gives timing data, but it is not clear to me if the data output would reflrct alterations the SSBox performs or not, I am thinking not. So there would need to be as better way.

Rather then design a timing capture system, I was planning to use the knock sensors to set timing in a safe range. But.... that is all new ground for me, so I cannot comment yet on the methodology and the result

Just so we are clear:

Honda ECU + SSBox = Fuel management system you have now.
AEM would replace that with a completely new FM system.

LM-1, FJO, or AEM make wideband 02 sensor setups/loggers

If I was going AEM fuel management, I would consider their 02 sensor setup instead of the LM-1 or FJO.

LM-1: www.innovatemotorsports.com

FJO: www.fjoracing.com

AEM: www.aempower.com

HTH,
LarryB

 

[RP-Motorsports]

I think an 8 psi boost with a flat 12 afr would make you very happy for many years to come!
Not if you go drive one of the monster turbo's. Sorry, just had to throw that in.

Couldn't agree with you more man! I am a turbo lover as well, my previous car was a 98 GSR with a Greddy 18G turbo with a front mount

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Tom,

I could not agree with you more in regard to safety and the approach to it. I agree with your philosophy completely. I would have not made the recommendation to James if I did not have an understanding of these systems and some experience at it.

I just went back and reviewed my log data. Here are a few numbers to support why I think the CYA factor is covered.

Larry I wasn't picking on you, I didn't know that he had any professional tuning or dyno time done. I was just making generalizations. Boost on mates!

 

[Gerry Johnson]

Hey Larry,

You are a wise master; your approach is certainly logical. You also have an excellent memory. I do indeed have the N1000 and a 6lb pulley. I would like to go to an 8lb. I guess I should have posted these questions prior to spending the $940!!! for Gerry's system. My apprehension there was more a reflection of my ignorance in approaching these systems and tuning then actual need. (It does look cool though).

Ignorant? NO WAY...
You did the right thing upgrading the fuel system on your car, anyone trying to make good power safely would do the same thing, I include the fuel pump on any Turbo build to eliminate any chance of going lean on the top, especially when using bigger then stock injectors. Under boost it might only take one time on the stock pistons going lean for you to have to call the tow truck to get you home.