Intercooled CSTC?

[StmpoRaceProducts]

Part of the reason why water injection helps in reducing detonation is that it's pretty effective in cleaning out the carbon in the combustion chamber.

Carbon has mass, and mass in the combustion chamber will raise the compression ration slightly. Since nothing else changes in A/F/ ratio tha can mean a greater comparession ratio than what the powerplant was designed for and/or tuning.

No amount of carbon that an engine produces is making a difference in compression. You would have to be using 80 octane or something low to cause enough carbon build up, lol. Or year old gas. lol.
High octane gas engines barely produce any carbon, so you should never have a problem with that..
And any good EMS should be able to compensate for any slight compression change, which there will be none cause it isnt going to happen.:smile:

 

[BATMANs]

An accumulation of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber and on the top of the pistons can increase compression to the point where detonation becomes a problem. Carbon deposits are a common cause of detonation in high-mileage engines, and can be especially thick if the engine consumes oil because of worn valve guides and seals, worn or broken piston rings and/or cylinder wear. Infrequent driving and not changing the oil often enough can also accelerate the buildup of deposits.

In addition to increasing compression, carbon deposits also have an insulating effect that slows the normal transfer of heat away from the combustion chamber into the head. A thick layer of deposits can therefore raise combustion temperatures and contribute to "preignition" as well as detonation.

 

[I-VTEC NSX]

Part of the reason why water injection helps in reducing detonation is that it's pretty effective in cleaning out the carbon in the combustion chamber.

Carbon has mass, and mass in the combustion chamber will raise the compression ration slightly. Since nothing else changes in A/F/ ratio tha can mean a greater comparession ratio than what the powerplant was designed for and/or tuning.

There would have to be serious carbon build up to raise compression in a cylinder. Dont you think auto makers R&D carbon deposits in the engine when development takes place!!! I have cracked open a motor running 86 OCT fuel and the carbon deposits were very very minimal. And if you have enough carbon build up in a cylinder to raise your compression more than 0.1 then you should put the wrench down and step away from the car:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[BATMANs]

This thread is dedicated to a modified NSX.

I don't recall Honda conducting R&D in the areas of Forced Induction for the NSX, back then.

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

Isnt that a small block head in the pick above?

Your right, Honda had no R&D in Forcedinduction in the NSX or any other vehicle they made till now. But they didnt need to. Honda has made the best performing econo engine for decades now.. Other makers have finally caught up.

Back to forcedindction.........We as NSX owners are still in the past of screwing around with superchargers. Lets face it. For the money/power, isnt it better to turbo? You sure can make tons more power, not to mention a huge selection of turbos to choose from....superchargers are no more then a waste of time and money....Keep them on the Hemi's, thats there best home.

 

[Racerxjling]

Yes we have done some research on the IAT cooling for the CSTC... In the past I had made a water to air for a paxton 2k kit for the nsx and it worked great..tight fit but it worked great.

JeffShoots makes a good point here. (above)

As for the comptech theres not really much room to work with seeing that the charger sit right on top the intake. So having a water to air "big" enough to cool the charge air for that style kit, well there's just no room. Expecially when most people want to keep there engine cover.

Ive seen many pics of Shad's set up and its very nice work, but for a water to air to be sitting in between two hot objects, I just dont see it working well for a long period of running time. Meaning, if your running your car round and round on the track, how is it possible for the water to be cooled off by outside (air) temp, when the heat from the charger and engine its self is heat soaking the hell out of the core? Not to mention most cities average about 90deg? temps out side. So you have 90deg weather cooling off what, 300deg engine heat aswell? Not to mention, what happens when your daily driving your car? Not seeing a big advantage here..And not saying it doesnt work, just saying for the time and core size for the set up, I dont see it working aswell as it should for the money...

I've done a similar set up for the GruppeM kit and it helpped, but not enough to be satisfied. Using a core from bell intercoolers, 9x6.50x10, half inch lines, flow jet pump, and nice size exchanger in the front, only brought the temps down 20-30deg if i remember correctly...The roots style just puts out to much heat. Turbo is the best for power adding options IMO.

I think adding alcohol to this kit would improve its temps dramatically.
Never got that far cause we ditched the charger for turbo.

On my turbo car with a slight smaller core makes 525whp @ 18psi (35R turbo) with IAT's of 78deg, the water to air works great for that set up. Will be building one to handle 1000whp soon!...Note this is on a 4cyl 2.0L honda motor.





I disagree here ^. Water injection works just like an intercooler or water to air etc.
Your just cooling the charge air in a different way. All three are preventing detonation. Cooler air = more power, so how ever you can get the air cooled by means do it!!
Ive done alcohol kits in the past and they work great! just dont run out under full pedal!! hahaha
The only benefit you have to air to air is, less hastle, less parts. Its a set and for get type of deal.....

I dunno.....my .02cents.

Although I agree with you that turbo may be a more efficient route, I am just too paranoid in Calif to run around town risking getting flagged by the long arm of the law or a smog check point on the streets. So, I too am interested in a kit for my 1.6L whipple SC. Would like to see a complete kit incl. a proper sized smaller pullley to raise the boost & IC or water injection setup with complete plumbing. I already have the AEM EMS so am anxious to see what power I can make.

Thx

Jeff

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

So, I too am interested in a kit for my 1.6L whipple SC. Would like to see a complete kit incl. a proper sized smaller pullley to raise the boost & IC or water injection setup with complete plumbing. I already have the AEM EMS so am anxious to see what power I can make.

Thx

Jeff

This I can understand, please look at the vendor section and see what we create and how we price it. We believe in a quality product that works.

You want more power and efficiency while staying reliable and out of trouble with the law. The answer is alcohol injection... not sandwiching a 4 inch tall core in between a very hot charger and even hotter engine block.... Its that simple..

So we're here to tell everyone we make this stuff....we don’t call another company and ask them to... So the price will be right.

Everyone who has bought something from us has been floored with the quality, level of service and how we choose to deliver it. We are curently struggling with acceptance from everyone.

Help us find 5 ctsc owners who want the right advise, part, service, and ending goal accomplished and you will get what you want.

It might just take a prime member to gather enough interest to do so. We don’t want to make yet another part far superior then anything else made just to see 2,500 views of the thread and 3 people posting questions.

We want everyone to know we're here for you, we wont tell you it makes sense to put a 50 inch core in between a hot motor and charger.

We would rather explain why that doesn’t accomplish your goals, then build you what will at a cheaper price...all we need is acceptance from this community...which we have struggled to receive... we cant help people that just look and move on...

If you help us with getting the 5 people interested...we will refund 100% of the product cost and shipping both ways if they don’t feel they got there moneys worth...which is the same thing we have told anyone who has ever called here about any of our products.

 

[Chris NSX]

Help us find 5 ctsc owners who want the right advise, part, service, and ending goal accomplished and you will get what you want.


If you help us with getting the 5 people interested...we will refund 100% of the product cost and shipping both ways if they don’t feel they got there moneys worth...which is the same thing we have told anyone who has ever called here about any of our products.

Add me to the list.:biggrin:

 

[DrivingAmbition]

Hi Guys,
This post has gotten a little off topic from what the original poster was asking. But in my experiences with real world testing on many NSX's with forced induction this is what I have learned.
#1 the point of any supercharger or turbocharger is to get more air into the engine. Adding more fuel to ignite that air is easy.
#2 the colder the air is (denser), the more of that air you get into the engine.
#3 but adding something that does not ignite (water/meth/alky) does not help get more air into the engine. Yes, it will cool your inlet temps allowing you to run more timing which might get you more HP.
#4 at the lower boost levels most of us run on the NSX (6 to 14 psi) I think water/meth injection is a waste of time. There is a good use for water/meth injection on higher boost cars 20+ psi that you already have more air than you can use. I have run a Supra on my dyno that ran 35 psi of boost and we used 4x440cc injectors to add water/methanol to help cool the inlet charge and it worked great.
#5 adding a 2" intercooler in between the supercharger and manifold on the NSX @ road race track runs much cooler intake air temps than with out one and the driver can fell that the power does not fall off as the race goes on.
Just my opinion, Cheers, Shad

 

[The Kid]

Hi Guys,
This post has gotten a little off topic from what the original poster was asking. But in my experiences with real world testing on many NSX's with forced induction this is what I have learned.
#1 the point of any supercharger or turbocharger is to get more air into the engine. Adding more fuel to ignite that air is easy.
#2 the colder the air is (denser), the more of that air you get into the engine.
#3 but adding something that does not ignite (water/meth/alky) does not help get more air into the engine. Yes, it will cool your inlet temps allowing you to run more timing which might get you more HP.
#4 at the lower boost levels most of us run on the NSX (6 to 14 psi) I think water/meth injection is a waste of time. There is a good use for water/meth injection on higher boost cars 20+ psi that you already have more air than you can use. I have run a Supra on my dyno that ran 35 psi of boost and we used 4x440cc injectors to add water/methanol to help cool the inlet charge and it worked great.
#5 adding a 2" intercooler in between the supercharger and manifold on the NSX @ road race track runs much cooler intake air temps than with out one and the driver can fell that the power does not fall off as the race goes on.
Just my opinion, Cheers, Shad

A waste for non tracked cars or do the high boost/AEM thing and do it right? Will I be impressed? Notice the difference? Dramatically?

 

[DrivingAmbition]

A waste for non tracked cars or do the high boost/AEM thing and do it right? Will I be impressed? Notice the difference? Dramatically?

Hi Mike,
I would highly recommend doing the AEM FIC, bigger injectors, 1:1 fuel pressure regulator and turn the boost up a little. For what you do with your car i think you would be very happy with the results. Cheers, Shad

 

[nsxsupra]

Hi Mike,
I would highly recommend doing the AEM FIC, bigger injectors, 1:1 fuel pressure regulator and turn the boost up a little. For what you do with your car i think you would be very happy with the results. Cheers, Shad

Shad,

Please pardon my ignorance. AEM FIC works for OBDI? If so, the set up you mentioned above would be really high on my to do list. I wish your shop is here in SoCal.

 

[DrivingAmbition]

Shad,

Please pardon my ignorance. AEM FIC works for OBDI? If so, the set up you mentioned above would be really high on my to do list. I wish your shop is here in SoCal.

Hi,
Yes, the AEM FIC works great on the OBD1 cars also. They are a little tricker to tune because you can not see the fuel trims in the ECU. But it can be done with great results. Cheers, Shad

 

[jdnsx]

Isnt that a small block head in the pick above?

Your right, Honda had no R&D in Forcedinduction in the NSX or any other vehicle they made till now. But they didnt need to. Honda has made the best performing econo engine for decades now.. Other makers have finally caught up.

Back to forcedindction.........We as NSX owners are still in the past of screwing around with superchargers. Lets face it. For the money/power, isnt it better to turbo? You sure can make tons more power, not to mention a huge selection of turbos to choose from....superchargers are no more then a waste of time and money....Keep them on the Hemi's, thats there best home.

As for the comptech theres not really much room to work with seeing that the charger sit right on top the intake. So having a water to air "big" enough to cool the charge air for that style kit, well there's just no room. Expecially when most people want to keep there engine cover.

Ive seen many pics of Shad's set up and its very nice work, but for a water to air to be sitting in between two hot objects, I just dont see it working well for a long period of running time. Meaning, if your running your car round and round on the track, how is it possible for the water to be cooled off by outside (air) temp, when the heat from the charger and engine its self is heat soaking the hell out of the core? Not to mention most cities average about 90deg? temps out side. So you have 90deg weather cooling off what, 300deg engine heat aswell? Not to mention, what happens when your daily driving your car? Not seeing a big advantage here..And not saying it doesnt work, just saying for the time and core size for the set up, I dont see it working aswell as it should for the money...

I've done a similar set up for the GruppeM kit and it helpped, but not enough to be satisfied. Using a core from bell intercoolers, 9x6.50x10, half inch lines, flow jet pump, and nice size exchanger in the front, only brought the temps down 20-30deg if i remember correctly...The roots style just puts out to much heat. Turbo is the best for power adding options IMO.

Wow, you have made your opinion very clear.

We had two of the cooled Whipples running at Mid-Ohio last year and the ambient temp on the first day was 94. While the coolers do heat soak the delta temp seems to be around 40 degrees over ambient. The IATs were around 130 and if you don't cool the high boost Whipple you can see temps around 220. This was viewed as a success by all involved so I don't know why your set up did not work very well.

Some people do not want turbos even though the power and cost might be more efficient. You might agree with me the turbo, stroker motor and supercharger are all different design and driving experiences and one might choose simply to their liking.

 

[jdnsx]

This I can understand, please look at the vendor section and see what we create and how we price it. We believe in a quality product that works.

You want more power and efficiency while staying reliable and out of trouble with the law. The answer is alcohol injection... not sandwiching a 4 inch tall core in between a very hot charger and even hotter engine block.... Its that simple..

So we're here to tell everyone we make this stuff....we don’t call another company and ask them to... So the price will be right.

Everyone who has bought something from us has been floored with the quality, level of service and how we choose to deliver it. We are curently struggling with acceptance from everyone.

Help us find 5 ctsc owners who want the right advise, part, service, and ending goal accomplished and you will get what you want.

It might just take a prime member to gather enough interest to do so. We don’t want to make yet another part far superior then anything else made just to see 2,500 views of the thread and 3 people posting questions.

We want everyone to know we're here for you, we wont tell you it makes sense to put a 50 inch core in between a hot motor and charger.

We would rather explain why that doesn’t accomplish your goals, then build you what will at a cheaper price...all we need is acceptance from this community...which we have struggled to receive... we cant help people that just look and move on...

If you help us with getting the 5 people interested...we will refund 100% of the product cost and shipping both ways if they don’t feel they got there moneys worth...which is the same thing we have told anyone who has ever called here about any of our products.

You are going to continue to struggle when you post like this.:wink:

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

Hi Guys,
This post has gotten a little off topic from what the original poster was asking. But in my experiences with real world testing on many NSX's with forced induction this is what I have learned.
#1 the point of any supercharger or turbocharger is to get more air into the engine. Adding more fuel to ignite that air is easy.
#2 the colder the air is (denser), the more of that air you get into the engine.
#3 but adding something that does not ignite (water/meth/alky) does not help get more air into the engine. Yes, it will cool your inlet temps allowing you to run more timing which might get you more HP.
#4 at the lower boost levels most of us run on the NSX (6 to 14 psi) I think water/meth injection is a waste of time. There is a good use for water/meth injection on higher boost cars 20+ psi that you already have more air than you can use. I have run a Supra on my dyno that ran 35 psi of boost and we used 4x440cc injectors to add water/methanol to help cool the inlet charge and it worked great.
#5 adding a 2" intercooler in between the supercharger and manifold on the NSX @ road race track runs much cooler intake air temps than with out one and the driver can fell that the power does not fall off as the race goes on.
Just my opinion, Cheers, Shad

Shad, wow just relized where we were posting this... we will take this conversation to another thread after this post...we have a high level of respect for you, no pun was intended.

Although I agree on what your saying 1-4...In my years of experiance in forcedinduction on many vehicles, using an intercooler or water to air, should be choosen upon how much air flow and heat is going to be added from the compressor. The size core being used for the comptech is great for minimal psi drop, however the water flowing through it, how is it keeping up with the heat from the engine, charger, and compressed air from the charger?...

We beleive although you are correct on what is trying to be accomplished with the turbo or SC it goes hand in hand with tuning. So if alky injection alowys you to add more timing thus creating more power while overheating still not an issue... it can be viewed as a great dollar for dollar benefit based on what a lower boost application is trying to acheive.

Number 5 is IMO a phycological feeling to the driver. No one wants to spend 2,500 dollars installed on a part that was designed correctly and tell them selfs its not doing anything. You have always given the right advise in past posts.

Shad, your design is perfect, you added a w/a application appropriatly. We respect that.

We want to continue this discussion so please use this thread...

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110280

Sorry again Shad keep up the amazing work.

 

[Semnos_NSX]

Hi Guys,
We are working on what parts are need for a more complete kit (pump, tank, hoses, clamps, etc). We should have something done just before NSXPO. Cheers, Shad

Any update on a complete kit??? :smile:

 

[warren1205]

KID!

install this yourself. great for dyi.

honestly takes about 30 minutes esp if you pipe directly into the intake tube between the throttle body and air box.

there are only 3! connectons you need to make

12volt to the boost switch
12volt from boost switch to pump
ground from pump to chassie. thats it.

http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=Cool150

mount a water tank in the trunk.... use the ecu wire harness hole to pull out the water feed to the nozzle and your finished! oh forgot the boost reference line from the manifold. im sure you all have a boost gauge, you can just T off that line.

set the boost switch to kick in about 2 psi before when you wanted to turn on.

so lets say you want water kick in at 8psi. set it up 5-6psi so the pump primes and for 2psi.

its easy

run a progressive controller!

 

[Semnos_NSX]

run a progressive controller!

Again, any updates on a complete CTSC intercooler kit?

 

[Lonestranger]

Again, any updates on a complete CTSC intercooler kit?

The answer is apparently still NO!!:redface: For some reason, those with Turbos, do not understand that those of us with CTSC, are still looking to maximize their potential without switching to an overpriced turbo package that will still not be emissions legal!
Incidentially, I agree that if a proper IC package is not available, a water/meth injection package is a very viable alternative in the interium.

 

[jmp]

I have a 9 lb pulley, aem, CTSC with snow perf 2-stage meth inj. Happy with it but always have that bug in the back of my mind wondering if there is a hiccup in the meth delivery (mechanical failure, pump failure, etc.), with the advanced timing, am I going to blow something?? Also, I have a 5 quart methanol container (the larger one) but when I drive hard you can see it burn through. I wonder if in a hard 45 min track session would I empty it and then what ...??

I installed the meth about 6 mos before Shad's aftercooler was first mentioned on Prime.

My setup works for hard street driving and I am generally happy with it. However, it is a bandaid solution for cooling IAT's and does not give the peace of mind that an intercooler/aftercooler would. It is a cost-effective interim solution IMO.

At some point I will purchase one of the coolers.

 

[onestepx]

Hi Ron im running the BBSC is this kit compatible with Aem EMS Stand alone unit & wont you need tuning if your going to run 100% Methanol?

the kit im running right now is coolingmist 200$ kit.

it comes complete for install. all you need to supply is the water jug.... i use a 1 gallon windshield washer bottle and i keep 2-3 extra in the car so i can switch out easy.

coolingmist has a pump that can take 100% meth. not a lot of kits can support 100% meth,

its 200$, nothing fanny. works great. instakk takes about 30 minutes-2hours depending on the car. on the nsx if you install on the intake tube... i tiwll be a breeze

pump is boost acctivated and the kit comes iwth a boost sensor.

you dont even need to tune the car, if your just running water.

im running a 14 gallon / hour nozzel on my 4 cylinder car.... which is perfect since i was doing 29psi on a stock 3sgte motor on a gt30 and a heat soaked itnercooler. :biggrin:

for just a stock application with the SC for detonation prevention, i would recommend a 6-8gph sprayer.

install is a breeze, defintly a good dyi project.

excuse the spelling, i dont have my contacts in and everything is a blur.:wink:

 

[drivingambitionbob]

Ok,Ok................ it's ready! The Sacramento NSXCA group held their monthly meeting here today and we showed the new water/ air aftercooler kit. All the parts are in and we should be able to begin shipments next week. Proven to reduce inlet temps 60-70 degrees.
For more details and pricing please drop a mail or call.

 

[DrVolkl]

Ok,Ok................ it's ready! The Sacramento NSXCA group held their monthly meeting here today and we showed the new water/ air aftercooler kit. All the parts are in and we should be able to begin shipments next week. Proven to reduce inlet temps 60-70 degrees.
For more details and pricing please drop a mail or call.

Seriously? BTW who are you?

Please post some pics.

 

[tbeaty]

Ok,Ok................ it's ready! The Sacramento NSXCA group held their monthly meeting here today and we showed the new water/ air aftercooler kit. All the parts are in and we should be able to begin shipments next week. Proven to reduce inlet temps 60-70 degrees.
For more details and pricing please drop a mail or call.

Is this for the complete kit? If so sign me up.