Is War Worth it!?

[Jimbo]

Electro,

There are a number of problem areas in the world today and obviously North Korea is one such area.

It's not one or the other. The situations are completely different. It's not like we have to choose either Iraq or North Korea.

Iraq has tons of chemical and bio weaponry. The risk of these materials finding their way into the hands of terrorists is too great.

You're pretty clear on what you DON'T want done, but what would you do specifically against Iraq and North Korea?

PS: Be careful... Your anti-Bush side is starting to show.

PPS: Before you criticize that mean Geo Bush...you should do some research on the concessions that the Clinton Administration gave the North Koreans.

-J


[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 15 February 2003).]

 

[Electro]

Jimbo, Remember not to read into what I'm saying too much. I know you have a tendancy to do so.

So let me elaborate.

I fully know that the entire history of the administration of the US has been less than pleasing for lots of people. But let me say again, I'm not totally anti-bush or anti-american. I'm just pointing out the mistakes these people are making, which is only causing more problems than there already is.

Clinton made his mistakes, so has bush ... we can argue about who thinks who made what mistake and when and how bad it was. that still wont change anything.

All I really want is some accountability from our administration. That's it. They need to wise up and realize that their actions do have serious negative reprocussions in the international political world. And yes, these days, you could say I'm very insatiable when it comes to this topic... that is until there's someone in office who really knows what they're doing.

-E

 

[Electro]

Also, I never said that Iraq and North Korea are identical situations... where did you get that? Where do you come up w/ this stuff?

"Iraq has tons of chemical and bio weaponry. The risk of these materials finding their way into the hands of terrorists is too great." Agreed.

"You're pretty clear on what you DON'T want done, but what would you do specifically against Iraq and North Korea?"

Firstly, I wouldn't have said they're "The axis of evil"... that only inflames the situation - calling NK to sharpen their teeth against us in an "act of self defense"...

It just seems kind of backwards that we're going after someone that has no "official" statement of a nuclear program... and we're not considering N.K. when they officially claimed they do.

-E

 

[Electro]

http://asia.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/02/10/nkorea.weapons/index.html

Obviously there are people who dont believe anything anyone says...

"The council could consider economic and political sanctions. "

But when its obvious that sanctions are considered an "act of war" (said by N. Korea) dont you think that's counterproductive?

"Pyongyang, which has said that any sanctions imposed on it by the United Nations would effectively be a declaration of war, has so far remained silent on the U.N. move."

So no its not just bush... its a colaboration of nations that cant seem to agree on anything.

And so we continue on the downward spiral to hell...

-E

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 15 February 2003).]

 

[Jimbo]

Electro,

Read too much into your words? - What else do I have to go on but your words. If you're not serious about having a discussion, fine. But words do mean things.

You ask for accountability from OUR administration, but it's interesting you don't ask for accountability from Iraq. Why is it that you think the USA is the guilty party in all of this?

Anyway, seeing how the UN has shown to be so ineffective against Iraq, I'm not that optimistic that the UN will be able to do anything about North Korea.

North Korea can't really use any atomic weapons, so let them them posture all they want. If they ever tried to use them, the entire country would cease to exist.

I'm frankly more concerned about tons of bio weapons in the hands of Saddam and his terrorist friends.

You really seem to unwilling to take a firm stance on anything. Peace with honour, eh? Is your last name, "Chamberlain"?

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 15 February 2003).]

 

[Electro]

Just as a side note, once again, the US govt & military is not without fault...

(remember here folks I'm only pointing out the US stuff because its the country _I_ live in and its the country that claims to be completely without faults of their own - I'm not pointing out issues with other nations at this time)

http://www.iacenter.org/korea_protest11-02.htm

Just go to google and type in "Us war crimes" .... see what u find.

It's interesting to see that there is much protest against the US military... especially when we all know that every single person in the military has good intentions. Yes I know, that goes for just about every military that ever walked on this earth... but why not set a good example if we are to really be the GOOD guys? How can we set any examples if we're doing similar war crimes?

These are questions I have that really no one can answer... and I dont expect anyone here can answer them either. They're rhetorical questions - one's that really have no answers.

-E

 

[Electro]

If Cnn posts it, it must have *some* truth to it right?

http://asia.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/13/korea.usa.rumsfeld/index.html

"The issue of alleged crimes committed by U.S. troops in the south has also become a subject of tension. "

Of course, that's all that's mentioned about it anywhere on CNN... go figure.

-E

 

[Jimbo]

Electro,

And the point is? You just want to flamebait, right?

Iraq defies the UN...has prohibited weapons of mass destruction...has proven Al Qaida terrorist ties...has already demonstrated the willingness to use such weapons...have already attempted to assassinate a US president...killed and tortured thousands of Iraqi citizens...

And because our country is trying our best in the aftermath of 9/11 where 2500 or more US citizens were murdered, you have the gall to try and turn this around and make it seem like it's our fault?

Of course, you probably think 9/11 was our fault too.

GFY!

I'm through with you.

-J

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 15 February 2003).]

 

[Justin664]

Electro,

I believe that CNN is referring to civil crimes committed by US servicemen. That does not make it a war crime.

Again, why would you not hold the administrations of Iraq and Norh Korea accountable for their actions?

Oh, and by the way your anti-Bush slant is showing

 

[Electro]

Its nice to see that everyone thinks I'm anti-US... when I'm ONLY speaking about the US! Did no one just read what I typed? How many times do I have to explain this. I DO agree that accountability has to be taken ACROSS THE BOARD! If you people would fucking read what I'm saying you'd understand me. Not just pick out the sentances you dont like and go off on me for whatever you want- b/c if you take ONE of my sentances and use it by itself, it is easy to misinterprit it. It's called COMPREHENSIVE READING - what you were supposed to have learned in elementary school.

The reasons for 9/11 isn't SOLELY because there are crazed terrorists after our way of life... (that is the perception to the american people and understandably so) But there has not been any sort of accountability for the mistakes that WE have made as a nation... we can not continue on this path or there will be major consequences! I have no room to talk about any of the actions of any other nation, because I DO NOT LIVE THERE. Is that so hard to understand? I'm only making a point about the US because I see it for myself. I know there are mistakes made by other nations... and I can not comment about that.

 

[Electro]

I know its a bold statement, but there is some truth to it. If the US govt was truly doing what they were supposed to be doing in the inernational community, sept 11th should have never happened.... (that and proper intelligence)

I'm sure no one knows why they attacked us right? Well it's because of our very presense in the middle east and all over the world. That and many other arguable points that the "terrorists" make... I really wish that would have never happened... and I cant say its solely our fault... but at the same time I can not believe that it just happened because these terrorists want us dead for no reason.

There is no winning this debate. That's why its called a "DEBATE".

-E

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 16 February 2003).]

 

[Zuerst]

Originally posted by NeoNSX:

See this picture? Let's talk about this...

You $UCK at parking!!! Look at all that space between the car and the curb!!!

I have strong opinions on this issue as well, but I don't think I can make a relevent post without reading through most of the thread and arguments, which I haven't. So I'm not going to bother.

 

[huckster]

hey electro, watsup. see youre still playin same game. So i'm still wondering why you dont put together a good argument---it's easy enough to do. An average troller could do a lot better than this. Since youre supposed to be smart according to yourself, put together a good sound seemingly legit position. I helped you once before. Praise be to allah, I could do a lot better than than this.

 

[huckster]

whoah...anybody notice i just posted that on #666? and i stuttered on than than. and i was encouraging electro????

that was a sucky parking job by the way. somebody ought to ticket that

 

[snapper]

Hey Electro,
Save it for NPR. It is the same old, tired, dog eared story.

We are the bad guys because of what we've done.
We are the bad guys because of what we haven't done.
They wouldn't hate us if we left them alone.
They wouldn't hate us if we gave them more.
etc.
etc.

And your "bold statement" is Liberal bull. If we had hit Al Qaida first to prevent 9/11 you and Ted Kennedy would have gone ape because of our lack of a "smoking gun".

 

[Jimbo]

http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,78723,00.html


A good interview.

IMO, Ms Rice is surely an asset to the administration and our country.

-Jim

PS: Hey Neo... Was that photo shot in Melbourne? Near the MCG perhaps?

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 16 February 2003).]

 

[Spencer]

I always enjoy editorials by Newsweek's Fareed Zakaria. This one is no exception, and it hits on an overall theme of credibility. I particularly enjoy the quote from the Egyptian weekly Al Usbou...
http://www.msnbc.com/news/870531.asp?0dm=N1IWO

 

[Jimbo]

He's absolutely correct.

At this point we need to maintain our resolve.

I don't believe our leaders will back down and let Iraq off the hook. They may try to construct a new resolution and give the French, Germans and Russians some wiggle room, but at the end of the day, it's Iraq that has to deliver the goods.

 

[Justin664]

Electro,

Again with the personal attacks....you would not know a debate if it jumped up and bit you on the ass!

We can agree to disagree, but you insist that everyone that does not agree with your view is in some way mentally deficient.

I agree with Jimbo, I am done with this thread...

 

[Electro]

http://www.digitalglobe.com/gallery/iraq/baghdad_overview_feb6_2002_DG.jpg

Feel like playing "Where's waldo?"

Try finding Saddam... among the millions of civilians...

Hey I know, we could just carpet bomb the entire city... that'll get'em.

-NSXJunkie

[This message has been edited by NSXJunkie (edited 25 March 2003).]

 

[NSX_Dreamer]

all we need is a laser beam up his a$$, and he'll be toast.

I like your style, Saddam lover.

Originally posted by NSXJunkie:
http://www.digitalglobe.com/gallery/iraq/baghdad_overview_feb6_2002_DG.jpg

Feel like playing "Where's waldo?"

Try finding Saddam... among the millions of civilians...

Hey I know, we could just carpet bomb the entire city... that'll get'em.

-NSXJunkie

[This message has been edited by NSXJunkie (edited 25 March 2003).]

 

[Electro]

Who said I loved Saddam? Geezus man u're really scrapin for clues here aren't ya.....

Thats what I love about those that are pro-violence.. Anyone who opposes them are just lumped into the same "tree-hugging-hippies-who-I-make-no-effort-to-understand" catagory.

Isnt it nice to have the majority of the arab countries forming a coalition to support Iraq? Very nice isnt it... I guess we'll just topple the governments of those who oppose us one by one...

Are they speaking accurately when they call the west imperialists? If not, then why would they say that? (i'm not saying I agree with them so dont jump to conclusions- just raising very important questions even in the face of adversity)

Pathetic

NSXJunkie

 

[NSX_Dreamer]

Originally posted by NSXJunkie:
...Pathetic NSXJunkie

Yes, I quite agree...

 

[NSX_Dreamer]

Originally posted by NSXJunkie:
Who said I loved Saddam? Geezus man u're really scrapin for clues here aren't ya.....

Thats what I love about those that are pro-violence.. Anyone who opposes them are just lumped into the same "tree-hugging-hippies-who-I-make-no-effort-to-understand" catagory.

Isnt it nice to have the majority of the arab countries forming a coalition to support Iraq? Very nice isnt it... I guess we'll just topple the governments of those who oppose us one by one...

Are they speaking accurately when they call the west imperialists? If not, then why would they say that? (i'm not saying I agree with them so dont jump to conclusions- just raising very important questions even in the face of adversity)

Pathetic

NSXJunkie

Is Osama accruate when he calls America the great evil that Islam will crush? if not, why would he say that?

Pathetic

NSXJunkie

[This message has been edited by NSX_Dreamer (edited 25 March 2003).]

 

[huckster]

Those against the war;

Q: Do you think chemical warfare is a threat?

Are you aware that Saddam HAS USED chemical warfare--first against the iranians and then against the Kurds in his own country.

Q: Do you think a country who repeatedly, publicly, threatens the United States while posessing and using chemical/biological warfare is a threat?

Do you realize that Iraq's leadership has been threatening us for over twenty years, talking about and calling for a religious war against America and our downfall.

Q: Do you think a country who attempts to assasinate our (ex)President is a threat?

Iraq attempted the assasination of Bush Sr.

Q: Do you think a country who harbors terrorists while doing all the above is a threat?

EVERYONE in the world outside of the United States is aware that Iraq has harbored terrorists. No surprise considering the call for America's destruction that has been Iraq's continual message.

I respect your right to dissent but question your intelligence in ignoring the threat represented by Iraq. They have repeatedly expressed the desire to harm us. They have the ability to harm us. They have attempted to assasinate an US president. WE have the right to eliminate this very real threat.